Disc brakes or not

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Mububban
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Re: Disc brakes or not

Postby Mububban » Thu Jan 04, 2018 11:07 am

jacks1071 wrote:
Comedian wrote:
biker jk wrote:Ignore Comedian's post which is largely a work of fiction. I have a bike with rim brakes and another with disc brakes. Disc brakes are superior in every way. In almost 16,000km of riding over 27 months the only maintenance I've performed on the disc brakes is to change the front pads.

Here's what Cadel Evans has to say:

“In my personal riding experience, [discs provide] fantastic performance and brake modulation. It works the same every time you pull on the lever, which allows you to brake much later going into corners and carry more speed through the apex of the corner, which then results in higher exit speeds, which results in going faster, which results in a big grin on your face. I don’t think [the objections have] anything to do with the technology or the capabilities of disc brakes. In fact, after using it, I’m quite sure it’s not.”


That's the guy who works for a bike company who wants to sell you a bike. :mrgreen:


Comedian, you took the words right out of my mouth.


Whilst that may form your basis of scepticism, please highlight the points he makes that are not considered true and valid re performance, modulation, cornering speeds etc.
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Re: Disc brakes or not

Postby Sharkey » Mon Jan 08, 2018 10:52 am

trailgumby wrote:I meant to ask earlier but you've just confirmed my suspicion. There's your problem right there. Chuck them out and replace with Shimano. Seriously.


My local bike shop actually uses the code" RWS" on it's paperwork for fixing issues with Avid brakes - and, yes, it stands for Replace With Shimano.

I had a 2006 Stumpjumper with Deore disc brakes that had done 30,000km of hard riding before breaking the frame for the 2nd time last year, which prompted me to replace it. Nearly everything on the bike had been replaced (original frame was sand sand blasted and repainted) in the 10 years of use - except for the brakes. I just replaced pads and rotors as required and hadn't ever bled the brakes and they still worked perfectly. If all bike parts worked as well bike shops would go out of business.

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queequeg
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Re: Disc brakes or not

Postby queequeg » Mon Jan 08, 2018 2:21 pm

Sharkey wrote:
trailgumby wrote:I meant to ask earlier but you've just confirmed my suspicion. There's your problem right there. Chuck them out and replace with Shimano. Seriously.


My local bike shop actually uses the code" RWS" on it's paperwork for fixing issues with Avid brakes - and, yes, it stands for Replace With Shimano.

I had a 2006 Stumpjumper with Deore disc brakes that had done 30,000km of hard riding before breaking the frame for the 2nd time last year, which prompted me to replace it. Nearly everything on the bike had been replaced (original frame was sand sand blasted and repainted) in the 10 years of use - except for the brakes. I just replaced pads and rotors as required and hadn't ever bled the brakes and they still worked perfectly. If all bike parts worked as well bike shops would go out of business.


I am about 3/4 of the way through rebuilding my commuter bike. It has had Avid BB7 Road Discs on it since 2011. At the time they were pretty much all you could get (other than the Avid BB5!) for standard mech Road Levers. They worked pretty well, except that aligning the calipers was a pain, and the brakes squealed like a stuck pig in the wet.

Anyway, since I was putting new rims on my hubs, new fork etc, I decided to ditch the BB7's as they were looking pretty well used after 55,000km of service. I opted for the TRP HY/RD calipers as they were on special and included the rotors and adapters I needed. Apart from looking a lot more refined, they are also much less chunkier than the BB7, so much that I don't think fitting my mudguards will require any creative bending of stays this time.

I am hoping the performance is up to par. I have never had Hydro before, and these are only a Hybrid caliper.
Will be a good benchmark before the Shimano R8020 levers show up for my new bike next month.
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thamete
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Re: Disc brakes or not

Postby thamete » Mon Jan 08, 2018 4:03 pm

queequeg wrote: I decided to ditch the BB7's as they were looking pretty well used after 55,000km of service. I opted for the TRP HY/RD calipers as they were on special and included the rotors and adapters I needed. Apart from looking a lot more refined, they are also much less chunkier than the BB7, so much that I don't think fitting my mudguards will require any creative bending of stays this time.

I am hoping the performance is up to par. I have never had Hydro before, and these are only a Hybrid caliper.
Will be a good benchmark before the Shimano R8020 levers show up for my new bike next month.


I have just replaced the BB7s on the front of my 2013 VWR dropbar with TRP HY/RDs as I had become fed up with the need for adjusting the BB7s on a fully loaded touring bike and the need to carry a T25 driver to achieve this easily with the wheel in when away on the road. The new TRPs are paired with a set of Gevenalle audax friction brifters which use specially modified tektro brake levers.

Installation was a breeze, take off the old BB7s watch the TRP installation and setup videos a couple of times, and put on the TRP HY/RDs, had to replace the inner cable due to some fraying but the compression-less outer was still o.k., had to bend my mudguard stay just a fraction from where I had bent it to work with the BB7s. Cleaned the old rotor and then went for a ride to bed the pads in.

After 100 kms of use for me the TRPs are significantly better than the BB7s, I am able to effectively one finger brake from the hoods which I wouldn't have tried with the BB7s, they are quieter although that may be more related to pad compound as I only ever used sintered pads with the BB7s and I think checking for pad wear and changing pads will be much simpler than with the BB7s and of course, being hydraulic the pads self adjust.

I am looking forward to seeing how they perform on a loaded tour over a couple of thousand Km.


As to the comments on rim vs disc, the Vivente gives me an interesting perspective as the 2013 model combined disc brakes in the front with mini V rim brakes at the rear. Although I understand Vivente's rationale for the combination of brakes I find myself wishing that they had put a set of rear disc mounting tabs on the rear of the frame. If they had I would have mounted TRP HY/RDs both front and rear.

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Re: Disc brakes or not

Postby biker jk » Mon Jan 29, 2018 2:24 pm

Are disc brakes faster?


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Re: Disc brakes or not

Postby RobertL » Mon Jan 29, 2018 4:23 pm

Disk brake question: I saw an opinion recently (it may even have been on one of the other threads around these parts) that because disc braked bikes need wheels with stronger spokes, those wheels will always be strong enough for heavier riders.

So heavier riders can safely choose a disc braked bike knowing that the wheels will be strong enough for their weight, unlike a rim braked bike where they may have to choose a heavier-duty wheel.

Is that the case?
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Re: Disc brakes or not

Postby MichaelB » Mon Jan 29, 2018 4:26 pm

The telling one for me (although the test is not ideal or really rigorous) is the braking distance with a bit of water ...

Dry result was interesting as well.

Oh well, 'but they are ugly' is the only thing left now ......

Although I do admit that the Ultegra discs do look naff

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Re: Disc brakes or not

Postby Duck! » Mon Jan 29, 2018 4:45 pm

No, the spokes are the same. The loads imposed on disc brake wheels do demand more resilient lacing arrangements.
I had a thought, but it got run over as it crossed my mind.

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queequeg
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Re: Disc brakes or not

Postby queequeg » Mon Jan 29, 2018 7:00 pm

RobertL wrote:Disk brake question: I saw an opinion recently (it may even have been on one of the other threads around these parts) that because disc braked bikes need wheels with stronger spokes, those wheels will always be strong enough for heavier riders.

So heavier riders can safely choose a disc braked bike knowing that the wheels will be strong enough for their weight, unlike a rim braked bike where they may have to choose a heavier-duty wheel.

Is that the case?


It's probably more fair to say that rim braked bikes might come with wheels that have far fewer spokes than you would get away with on a disc brakes bike. I haven't seen too many disc brake wheels with only 16 spokes floating around. So, it's more a function of needing the extra spokes in a different lacing pattern (cross vs radial) to make it a safe wheel for the stresses of disc braking. So, as a side effect of that, they are stronger. However, there are plenty of disc brake wheels that are still only rated for lightweight riders
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Re: Disc brakes or not

Postby tez001 » Sun Feb 11, 2018 11:09 am

What's the feedback so far on the trp hy-rd's? They have come down a bit so I was looking to upgrade the commuter from Spyres to the Hy-rd's

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Re: Disc brakes or not

Postby queequeg » Sun Feb 11, 2018 1:34 pm

tez001 wrote:What's the feedback so far on the trp hy-rd's? They have come down a bit so I was looking to upgrade the commuter from Spyres to the Hy-rd's


I have only done a couple of test rides on them so far, but I am pretty impressed with them compared to the BB7. The main issue with the BB7 is that only one side of the caliper moves, so when you pull the lever it is pushing one piston towards the other, contacting the rotor, then pushing the rotor towards the other pad (basically bending the rotor each time). As the pads wear, you have to keep dialling in pads to keep similar performance. Not a big issue for the outboard pads, but the inboards ones need a T25 driver to turn the dial, unless you have very strong fingers and small hands to reach through the spokes and turn the dial, which is no easy task.

I am finding that with the HY-RD brakes, I am having to apply far less pressure to the levers to get the same braking force, and if I jam on the brakes for an emergency stop, I am managing to pull up the bike in a ridiculously short distance. Only tested in the dry so far, as the bike is still being finished off.
I had originally wanted the Spyre brakes, but they were unavailable at the time, and the HY-RD were on special with the adapters and rotors, so I just spent the extra money. Amazingly, the kit with the adapters and rotors was cheaper than buying just the caliper.
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Re: Disc brakes or not

Postby ldrcycles » Sun Feb 11, 2018 3:05 pm

I was rabidly against discs when they first started to appear on road bikes, and now that I've ridden them, meh. With rim brakes, power, modulation, rim wear etc has never been an issue for me in any sort of weather. From my experience, the only benefit of discs is keeping the braking heat away from the tyres, and even that only really applies to crazy descents which most in Australia won't see. I'll have a disc roady in the future, but only for the specific application of doing repeats on steep climbs.
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Re: Disc brakes or not

Postby kb » Sun Feb 11, 2018 3:24 pm

They’re good for small, weak hands
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Re: Disc brakes or not

Postby mikgit » Sun Feb 11, 2018 6:01 pm

queequeg wrote:
I am finding that with the HY-RD brakes, I am having to apply far less pressure to the levers to get the same braking force, and if I jam on the brakes for an emergency stop, I am managing to pull up the bike in a ridiculously short distance.


This is what I'd be looking for most in road discs, I find my current setup works fine (Ultegra brakes with mavic exalith rims), but I found on the mtb my XT brakes were way too grabby and powerful compared to my XT V's, until i started 1 finger braking and they were perfect. If I could get more force from less pressure from the hoods, then that'd be great. But I'd have to ride them first, a new bike is a long way in the future (unless some pile of cash comes my way)
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Re: Disc brakes or not

Postby thamete » Sun Feb 11, 2018 7:45 pm

TRP HY/RD 600 Km review

I have now put 600 Km of use into my TRP HY/RD since replacing the front BB7 on my 2013 VWR which has a mini V brake on the rear wheel. 350 Km has been experimenting with European style front wheel loading of the bike with approximately 25 Kg of gear in the front panniers and handlebar bag and about 8 Kg of camping equipment on the rear rack. Much of the riding has been along the Hunter Expressway through to Broke via some fairly hilly roads where I have been testing the brakes fairly aggressively.

Since installing the HY/RD I have had to adjust the rear mini Vs due to wear affecting brake lever clearance to the drop bars, there has been no change to the lever clearance for the HY/RDs. Whilst writing this I decided to check pad wear, it took me about 10 seconds, shining a light on the top front of the mechanism and the pads are clearly visible unlike the BB7s, very little pad wear was discernible. Before installing the HY/RDs I practiced taking the pads out and replacing them, the procedure is simple and pretty much foolproof unlike the BB7 which was fiddly and for me at least difficult to get replacement pads seated correctly. All rides have been in dry conditions so I have yet to determine how they work in the rain. I have tested the brakes with 1 finger braking from the drops and both 2 finger and 1 finger braking from the hoods, pulling the bike up hard on some long down hills to almost walking pace.

I have found the TRP HY/RDs to have a good feel with a smooth progression of braking modulation, the factory supplied semi metallic pads are quiet in the dry however I will be replacing them with SwissStop disc 15E pads which I purchased as my spare pads for when I am on tour. When braking on the hoods I can easily brake with 1 or 2 fingers although my default is 2 fingers due to braking habits developed with the BB7s. I very quickly found that I needed a lighter touch than when using the BB7s. When braking from the drops, which admittedly I don't do very often on a touring bike, I found 1 finger braking is my preferred choice. On some of my strong downhill braking experiments I used front wheel braking exclusively without any significant problem and I find that I am now tending to leave my braking later and braking harder whereas with the BB7s I would often tend to drag the brakes a bit because I was never fully confident with their stopping power and feel although this may have been the difference between fully sintered and semi metallic pads.

Overall I am very happy with my purchase that has provided me some of the benefits of hydraulic brakes without the need to replace the levers for compatibility. I am particularly pleased to have self adjusting pad clearance and not have to worry about having to adjust the clearance halfway down a long series of steep switchbacks which recently happened to me whilst riding fully loaded along the Bylong Valley Way on my way down Cox's Gap.

I hope that my experiences so far with these brakes help.

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Re: Disc brakes or not

Postby MichaelB » Mon Feb 12, 2018 8:42 am

kb wrote:They’re good for small, weak hands


My hands are far from small or weak and they work for me :D

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Re: Disc brakes or not

Postby tez001 » Mon Feb 12, 2018 8:45 am

Thanks for the reviews queequeg and thamete.

Less pressure for the same braking force compared to cable discs are exactly what I am after. For my commuter, I'm mainly riding on the hoods, and rarely on the drops, so it's really hard to get some good braking force.

The spyres are still good and have done me fine, however the hy-rd's seem like a good balance between fully hydraulic and full cable. I'd love a full hydraulic set up but the cost is too prohibitive at the moment.

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Re: Disc brakes or not

Postby Comedian » Wed Feb 14, 2018 2:34 pm

tez001 wrote:Thanks for the reviews queequeg and thamete.

Less pressure for the same braking force compared to cable discs are exactly what I am after. For my commuter, I'm mainly riding on the hoods, and rarely on the drops, so it's really hard to get some good braking force.

The spyres are still good and have done me fine, however the hy-rd's seem like a good balance between fully hydraulic and full cable. I'd love a full hydraulic set up but the cost is too prohibitive at the moment.

Interestingly.. I seem to be more than able to apply enough force to my rim brakes from the hoods. I certainly don't notice I'm applying excessive force in an emergency. It seems easy enough to modulate... I had an emergency stop (dry) this morning and I was surprised to note the rear wheel was off the ground (just).

This is why I struggle with the all the disc brake desperation I see on here. I've got more than enough power to go OTB in the dry and the wet (although I very very rarely ride in the wet), and the modulation is good enough that I haven't gone OTB, or run into anything that I didn't want to run into :mrgreen: . Other than added weight, complexity and cost I can't see why I'd bother.

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Re: Disc brakes or not

Postby thamete » Wed Feb 14, 2018 4:07 pm

Comedian wrote:Interestingly.. I seem to be more than able to apply enough force to my rim brakes from the hoods. I certainly don't notice I'm applying excessive force in an emergency. It seems easy enough to modulate... I had an emergency stop (dry) this morning and I was surprised to note the rear wheel was off the ground (just).

This is why I struggle with the all the disc brake desperation I see on here. I've got more than enough power to go OTB in the dry and the wet (although I very very rarely ride in the wet), and the modulation is good enough that I haven't gone OTB, or run into anything that I didn't want to run into :mrgreen: . Other than added weight, complexity and cost I can't see why I'd bother.


You may be happy with your rim brakes for the type of riding that you do, others may have other requirements where rim brakes are less than optimal. If I was only interested in riding a lightweight road bike for sport purposes in fair weather and was obsessive with shaving every gram off the bike weight possible than rim brakes would be fine. My bike is my vehicle it has to cope with as much as 65 Kg of luggage when I am on tour, and the added weight of bicycle components is trivial in the total context of my load. I run cantilever brakes on one of my bikes and the TRP HY/RD was much simpler to install and set up than the canti's when I switched over from V brakes.

So let's look at some of the benefits of disc over rim brakes from the perspective when used for utility riding over sports riding.

1) Superior braking with a load. You may be able to get your rear wheel off the ground during an emergency stop, personally I am more interested in the stopping distance capability of the brakes with a fully loaded touring bike going down a steep hill. The combination of avid BB7 on the front and mini V on the back is superior to my bike with avid shorty ultimate cantilevers front and back on my old bike. The use of TRP HY/RDs have improved stopping distance further still.

2) Better braking in the rain and does not produce a grinding paste that is very good at wearing away the rims. I believe that you live in Brisbane. I used to commute to work in Brisbane rain, hail or shine and a front rim would last me about 2 to 3 years.

3) With hydraulic discs there is no need to adjust brakes in the middle of a ride. With loaded touring it is quite possible that a lot of steep downhill riding through switchbacks will result in the need to adjust the brakes due to pad wear in the one day's ride. This can occur with both mechanical disc and rim brakes and has happened to me.

4) Disc brakes do not wear the braking surface of the rim. This may not be an issue with a light weight bike used for sports purposes but it can extend wheel life significantly on a loaded touring bike. It is much easier and cheaper to replace a disc rotor than replace or rebuild a wheel.

5) Disc brakes are not a problem when a wheel goes out of true. My touring bike has front discs and rear rim brakes and both wheels were damaged in a road rage attack. The front wheel was severely buckled and requires constant work to keep the wheel true due to uneven spoke tension. If I was using rim brakes on the front I would have had to replace the rim to avoid brake drag. The rear wheel required rim replacement due to splitting of about half of the spoke holes on one side of the rim. Although my effort of rebuilding the wheel was largely successful I ended up with one spoke where the nipple tended to unwind and thus the wheel would go out of true. This would result in the necessity to either constantly true the wheel or disconnect the rear brake to eliminate brake drag when on tour. It would not have been a problem with a disc brake on the rear wheel.

6) With hydraulic discs there is no need to constantly adjust the brakes as the pads wear although there is a need to be careful not to actuate the levers without the wheel in. Pad change (with the exception of avid BB7 and possibly other mechanicals) is much simpler with no need to worry about correct toe in to avoid horrific screeching.

Now as to your comments about force, I personally have not found a need to apply excessive force in an emergency using disc brakes from the hoods, I have simply found that I have had to use two finger braking. From my experience there is not too much difference in the braking force needed between the BB7 mechanical brakes on one bike and the shorty ultimate brakes on the other when unloaded. The difference is in modulation. The TRP HY/RDs have a similar modulation to the cantilevers and are significantly lighter than both the cantilevers and mechanical discs for the same braking power and thus I would expect less finger fatigue over time.

You may see disc brake desperation in the comments here, I see people wanting to make an informed decision about their braking needs.

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Re: Disc brakes or not

Postby Comedian » Wed Feb 14, 2018 8:43 pm

thamete wrote:You may see disc brake desperation in the comments here, I see people wanting to make an informed decision about their braking needs.

Actually.. all I see is the bike manufacturers wanting to sell EVERYONE a new EVERYTHING. And then in a couple of years, they can change the standards again and repeat. I see lots of marketing hoping they are going to make a motza.

If you've seen my comments in other threads you'd note that I think disc brakes are excellent for many things. Mountain bikes, touring, cargo bikes etc.. Critically probably any bike with tyres bigger than road bikes and riding positions that don't have you hanging over the front wheel. Even road bikes in some cases, like where you ride and train regularly in the rain, or perhaps where you live somewhere with mega mountains and or you have poor technique.

What I object to is the blanket statement that rim brakes are no good. I argue that there are advantages and disadvantages to both braking systems, and to little old me.. riding road bikes in sunny Brisbane.. I reckon rim brakes are well ahead. :lol: Personally I don't mind if people go and buy disc brake road bikes.. i like it if they are happy. But I know.. for me.. I'm better off with rim brakes.

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Re: Disc brakes or not

Postby Duck! » Thu Feb 15, 2018 1:04 am

Comedian wrote:Interestingly.. I seem to be more than able to apply enough force to my rim brakes from the hoods. I certainly don't notice I'm applying excessive force in an emergency.

Try doing it with a single finger. THAT is the real difference between cables, rim or disc, and hydraulics. With hydro you can get damn near full braking power and a truckload of modulation from far less input effort than you can with cables.
I had a thought, but it got run over as it crossed my mind.

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Re: Disc brakes or not

Postby MichaelB » Thu Feb 15, 2018 9:10 am

(AT) thamete - don't worry about trying to preach to the never to be converted.

Those that have used discs, generally stay on them when they realise they are better is 99.9% of all situations. Some won't change, and that's fine. It's their choice.

(AT) Duck! - couldn't agree more. :D

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Re: Disc brakes or not

Postby Thoglette » Fri Feb 16, 2018 3:12 pm

ldrcycles wrote:I was rabidly against discs when they first started to appear on road bikes.

Didn't think you were that old :D
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Re: Disc brakes or not

Postby CaffeineAU » Fri Feb 16, 2018 3:42 pm

I'm a big fan of discs, have them on my road and mountain bikes, and will never go back to rim brakes.

Having said that, I don't think making them look like food processor blades is helping!

This:
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Wouldn't look out of place in this group:

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Re: Disc brakes or not

Postby P!N20 » Fri Feb 16, 2018 4:25 pm

CaffeineAU wrote:Having said that, I don't think making them look like food processor blades is helping!


Now there's a marketing opportunity- go for a ride and have a fresh salad ready by the time you get home.

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