Disc brakes or not
- cyclotaur
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Re: Disc brakes or not
Postby cyclotaur » Tue Apr 17, 2018 7:17 pm
Obviously the discs are much better than cantis !! And in all conditions, and it's the cantis that squeal if not clean or perfectly set up.
However....I recently sold a road bike with 105 rim brakes and they were excellent in good conditions. I rarely rode that bike in bad conditions. If you can pick the road/weather conditions rim brakes are fine, lighter, cheaper etc. And if conditions change while you're out then you have to adjust anyway - that's just sensible riding.
Unless you're racing....in which case - well I don't race, so - not my problem !!
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"Riding, not racing...completing, not competing"
- Comedian
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Re: Disc brakes or not
Postby Comedian » Mon May 14, 2018 2:10 pm
Not all rim brake bikes have compliant forks. If you ride a rim bike without compliance you might not pick a difference. If you are the sort of person who doesn't really pick up on nuances like compliance then you probably won't care either. I knew that some people did notice though.. with people like specialized saying so much - and introducing their "future shock" to combat this problem. Of course the Canyon Grail..
On Saturday I did a ride that was undulating, twisty and rough. (Brookfield for those following at home). I've ridden this in the past on my rim brake bike with a harsh non compliant fork, and it wasn't really pleasurable. But Saturday I hammered it on my bike with the ENVE fork and cockpit. I was astonished how compliant and grippy the whole thing was. This is a kind of safety I really wouldn't want to loose. Very enjoyable too.
Last week a cycling reviewer called this out as well. James Huang said discussed this at length.. but when summarising why he wouldn't buy the bike....
https://cyclingtips.com/2018/05/canyon- ... rm-review/This one retains nearly everything that is good about the rim-brake edition, but there’s a noticeable sacrifice in ride quality with the stiffened disc-specific fork, not to mention the extra weight of the disc-brake componentry.
So I fully expect the pro disc to blast away.. but I really think this is something that people should be aware of. Maybe not everyone will notice or care for sure. But some might and it might not be obvious until well after the shop has your money.
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Re: Disc brakes or not
Postby CaffeineAU » Mon May 14, 2018 2:27 pm
Swings and roundabouts...
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Re: Disc brakes or not
Postby MichaelB » Mon May 14, 2018 2:52 pm
(my bolding)It’s once you crest the top of the climb and start rocketing down the other side that this new disc-equipped version can really spread its wings. The direct-mount version of Shimano’s Dura-Ace rim-brake calipers are about as good as it gets, with very good power, excellent lever feel, and great control. But it still can’t compare with what even Shimano’s Ultegra-level hydraulic disc brakes offer on the road, especially in wet conditions and when using carbon rims. There’s a weight penalty for sure, and were I still living in the flatter Midwestern area of the United States, I likely wouldn’t feel compelled to go this route. But I live in Colorado, where descents can last 20 minutes, and I’ll happily lug a couple hundred extra grams uphill if it makes for a faster and more controlled flight back into town.
And then this, to expand a bit more re the rougher cockpit feel ....
Fair enough the disc fork is a significant contributor to the changed feel (rim & disc use 23C tyres, but different rims), but the cockpit also has an impact. BTW, what cockpit is used on the Rim version ?This new disc-brake fork is necessarily beefed up relative to the rim-brake Aeroad CF SLX version, and the ride comfort seems to suffer as a result. Compounding the issue is the integrated cockpit; it’s a gem when muscling the front end around, but combined with the rougher-riding fork, it transmits every bit of road texture to your hands, for better or worse.
Re the weight, interesting, he only quotes the weight of the bike tested :
But doesn't mention the amount of weight difference. A link in the article takes you to Canyon Aeroad CF SLX 9.0 Di2 (Dura Ace) which weighs in at 6.86kg for a M frame, but has completely different wheels & groupset, so can't compare.Actual weight, without pedals, was 7.70kg (16.98lb) for a larger-than-it-sounds size XS.
I'd be interested to see what the ACTUAL difference is between the disc/rim versions.
Anyway, if you like Rim brakes fine. The comments are interesting, and what you quoted is correct, but you missed the other points that seem to contradict/moderate his opinion.
Meh, I'd have one in a heartbeat, but as Mr Huang says,
I’m still not buying this one, but it’s only because I don’t have the money.
- Comedian
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Re: Disc brakes or not
Postby Comedian » Mon May 14, 2018 5:37 pm
You are probably right.. I did ignore pretty much everything else because I thought that was all pretty obvious. I'm pretty chuffed that we've at least got to the point of acknowledging that adding a disc brake fork has an effect on compliance. That's a win.MichaelB wrote:If you are selectively going to quote to support your argument (which is fair enough), make sure there aren't other quotes that also support discs as being better than the rim version .....
(my bolding)It’s once you crest the top of the climb and start rocketing down the other side that this new disc-equipped version can really spread its wings. The direct-mount version of Shimano’s Dura-Ace rim-brake calipers are about as good as it gets, with very good power, excellent lever feel, and great control. But it still can’t compare with what even Shimano’s Ultegra-level hydraulic disc brakes offer on the road, especially in wet conditions and when using carbon rims. There’s a weight penalty for sure, and were I still living in the flatter Midwestern area of the United States, I likely wouldn’t feel compelled to go this route. But I live in Colorado, where descents can last 20 minutes, and I’ll happily lug a couple hundred extra grams uphill if it makes for a faster and more controlled flight back into town.
And then this, to expand a bit more re the rougher cockpit feel ....
Fair enough the disc fork is a significant contributor to the changed feel (rim & disc use 23C tyres, but different rims), but the cockpit also has an impact. BTW, what cockpit is used on the Rim version ?This new disc-brake fork is necessarily beefed up relative to the rim-brake Aeroad CF SLX version, and the ride comfort seems to suffer as a result. Compounding the issue is the integrated cockpit; it’s a gem when muscling the front end around, but combined with the rougher-riding fork, it transmits every bit of road texture to your hands, for better or worse.
Re the weight, interesting, he only quotes the weight of the bike tested :
But doesn't mention the amount of weight difference. A link in the article takes you to Canyon Aeroad CF SLX 9.0 Di2 (Dura Ace) which weighs in at 6.86kg for a M frame, but has completely different wheels & groupset, so can't compare.Actual weight, without pedals, was 7.70kg (16.98lb) for a larger-than-it-sounds size XS.
I'd be interested to see what the ACTUAL difference is between the disc/rim versions.
Anyway, if you like Rim brakes fine. The comments are interesting, and what you quoted is correct, but you missed the other points that seem to contradict/moderate his opinion.
Meh, I'd have one in a heartbeat, but as Mr Huang says,I’m still not buying this one, but it’s only because I don’t have the money.
I've never heard the suggestion that adding disc brakes has an effect on rear compliance. I understand the issues but you could also argue that asymmetrically stiffening the rear triangle on one side could cause other issues.. The rear triangle is nowhere near as critical as the front because it's closed and is built to carry far higher loadings.
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Re: Disc brakes or not
Postby Comedian » Thu May 17, 2018 1:12 pm
https://cyclingtips.com/2018/05/trek-20 ... sc-review/The 54cm sample sent for review weighed 7.94kg/17.5lb without pedals or bottle cages, which doesn’t do much to support the notion that the Émonda is a lightweight race bike. For those hoping for a lighter bike, they can opt for the SLR 6 Disc that promises a weight saving of 700-800g (depending on frame size), but it costs almost twice as much as the SL 6 Disc. Alternatively, the SL 6 with rim brakes provides almost the same kind of weight saving (600-700g) and actually costs less than the disc-brake version.
This quote I agree with. If you really want disc brakes then go for it.
For those contemplating such an upgrade, the choice of brakes may create some consternation, however much of the controversy surrounding disc brakes has died down. Quite simply, discs have become a legitimate option for road bikes and are now future-proof to some degree, so buyers can decide the matter on the basis of appeal. In this regard, the Émonda may be a little late to the party, but the second-generation frameset gives shoppers both options to consider.
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Re: Disc brakes or not
Postby Comedian » Wed May 23, 2018 12:27 pm
https://cyclingtips.com/2018/05/complet ... sc-brakes/
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Re: Disc brakes or not
Postby P!N20 » Wed May 23, 2018 1:32 pm
Did laugh.My spinning disc brake cut off my left leg. What do I do?
Bugger. Are you sure it wasn’t the race fencing? Actually, it was probably the chain ring. Either way, you should probably seek medical attention.
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Re: Disc brakes or not
Postby Thoglette » Wed May 23, 2018 2:04 pm
I do like the humour.Comedian wrote:Great article on CTips today about disc brake maintenance.
https://cyclingtips.com/2018/05/complet ... sc-brakes/
Shame it's still contains some "marketing spin", (to be polite).
Now, I am considering adding a disk to the back of my non-disk bike. Not because they say it can't be done but because disk-only 650B wheels are starting to appear on council rubbish pickups.Cycling tips wrote:By removing the brake caliper from the fork crown or seatstay bridge, manufacturers have been able to greatly increase tyre clearance and improve frame compliance
"People are worthy of respect, ideas are not." Peter Ellerton, UQ
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Re: Disc brakes or not
Postby Comedian » Wed May 23, 2018 4:03 pm
How would you mount the caliper? Changing to a disc fork in general wouldn't be too hard for most road bikes, but fitting a rear caliper could be tricky.Thoglette wrote:I do like the humour.Comedian wrote:Great article on CTips today about disc brake maintenance.
https://cyclingtips.com/2018/05/complet ... sc-brakes/
Shame it's still contains some "marketing spin", (to be polite).Now, I am considering adding a disk to the back of my non-disk bike. Not because they say it can't be done but because disk-only 650B wheels are starting to appear on council rubbish pickups.Cycling tips wrote:By removing the brake caliper from the fork crown or seatstay bridge, manufacturers have been able to greatly increase tyre clearance and improve frame compliance
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Re: Disc brakes or not
Postby Thoglette » Wed May 23, 2018 5:59 pm
DIY - pretty much the same way some m'cycles do it - hang the caliper on a something which pivots on/near the axle; use the disk to keep the caliper aligned and keep the reaction rod in tension.Comedian wrote:How would you mount the caliper? Changing to a disc fork in general wouldn't be too hard for most road bikes, but fitting a rear caliper could be tricky.
Or I could get lazy and buy one of the many disc brake adapters (e.g. A2Z adapters). All sorts out there.
At the front my forks are getting more "retro" and less disc/k compatible with every purchase. But I'm not into downhill.
"People are worthy of respect, ideas are not." Peter Ellerton, UQ
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Re: Disc brakes or not
Postby warthog1 » Sat Jul 16, 2022 10:14 pm
No rim brake bikes at all anymore.
I remembered the stories of disc brakes being the end of the cycling world on here.
Not so.
I rode my old tcr yesty. First time in a while.
I've got a disc brake gravelly now, which often wears road wheels.
Anyway it is through axle and I don't have a bike carrier for it.
We went away for a couple of nights so I took the roadie
Did a hunjy.
Most evident difference I noted;
Sh it brakes.
It was dry and I didn't need to brake hard but more lever pressure required and less ability to modulate.
Ride quality wasn't notably differnent but the braking was.
Anyway, the next road bike will be disc.
I wont miss the rim goers but meh not a big deal.
A coupla red wines and couldn't help it sorry
- trailgumby
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Re: Disc brakes or not
Postby trailgumby » Sun Jul 17, 2022 12:21 pm
warthog1 wrote: ↑Sat Jul 16, 2022 10:14 pmWatching the tdf.
No rim brake bikes at all anymore.
I remembered the stories of disc brakes being the end of the cycling world on here.
Not so.
I rode my old tcr yesty. First time in a while.
I've got a disc brake gravelly now, which often wears road wheels.
Anyway it is through axle and I don't have a bike carrier for it.
We went away for a couple of nights so I took the roadie
Did a hunjy.
Most evident difference I noted;
Sh it brakes.
It was dry and I didn't need to brake hard but more lever pressure required and less ability to modulate.
Ride quality wasn't notably differnent but the braking was.
Anyway, the next road bike will be disc.
I wont miss the rim goers but meh not a big deal.
A coupla red wines and couldn't help it sorry
Ditto. I've been a disc brake evangelist for a while, informed by my mountain biking background, but have been slow to spend the money to make the crossover. A couple of incidents in my road riding group and another while getting caught in the rain on my rim-braked roadie earlier this year forced the decision to open the wallet.
I rode with the roadie club for the first time in a few months yesterday on the rim-brake bike as I was more comfortable with the behaviour of the guys who were going for this particular ride, but it took me a good half hour to get my head dialled in again to compensate for how much worse the braking is compared to the R7000/XT hydraulic braked wet weather commuter.
While I enjoy how comfortable the roadie is, I absolutely will not miss the awful braking. Looking forward to the rest of the new roadie turning up tomorrow. Then it's off to get the fit done and decide on what wheels I'm going to build for it.
- Retrobyte
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Re: Disc brakes or not
Postby Retrobyte » Sun Jul 17, 2022 3:05 pm
warthog1 wrote: ↑Sat Jul 16, 2022 10:14 pmWatching the tdf.
No rim brake bikes at all anymore.
I remembered the stories of disc brakes being the end of the cycling world on here.
Not so.
I rode my old tcr yesty. First time in a while.
I've got a disc brake gravelly now, which often wears road wheels.
Anyway it is through axle and I don't have a bike carrier for it.
We went away for a couple of nights so I took the roadie
Did a hunjy.
Most evident difference I noted;
Sh it brakes.
It was dry and I didn't need to brake hard but more lever pressure required and less ability to modulate.
Ride quality wasn't notably differnent but the braking was.
Anyway, the next road bike will be disc.
I wont miss the rim goers but meh not a big deal.
A coupla red wines and couldn't help it sorry
I'm in exactly the same boat - bought a disc gravel bike to commute and am loving the brakes. Still love my rim brake roadie but I won't be holding out when it's time to replace that bike - discs it will be.
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Re: Disc brakes or not
Postby Comedian » Thu Jul 21, 2022 4:58 pm
In pro racing, the extent of the gain from running rim brakes is not worth the team having to pay for their equipment (a big part of their budgets) so they are rolling with the change. Since they are ubiquitous now - the disadvantages are mitigated somewhat because everyone is in the same boat.
Meanwhile I'll just keep riding what I've got. The bikes are light and ride beautifully. The stopping power is progressive, strong and in proportion to the grip from the 25mm (maximum I can fit) tyres in both the wet and the dry. More than enough to stop me on any hill in my area. They are cheap to maintain and the pads last a very very long time (current ones are at a bit over 8000k and not half worn). I never have all the whacky array of disc brake noises. Oh well.. it works for me. At least I know I'm not alone.
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Re: Disc brakes or not
Postby am50em » Thu Jul 21, 2022 5:40 pm
The current incarnations of disk brakes (including low end cable or hydraulic) are quiet and pretty much bulletproof. If rim brakes are what you want then fine, but you don't need to try to denigrate disk brakes with FUD.
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Re: Disc brakes or not
Postby warthog1 » Thu Jul 21, 2022 6:53 pm
I guess if you spend a significant amount on a Baum and it is rim brake, well changing the frame and fork easily to disc brake is not going to be cheap or easy.Comedian wrote: ↑Thu Jul 21, 2022 4:58 pmI don't know.. I reckon this is going exactly as I expected it would. Manufacturers have gleefully embraced disc brakes to the point where it's getting hard to buy rim braked bikes. Everyone is happy - they've had some of the best years on record (yes there were other factors at play). It's an immature technology so is likely to be changing quite a lot for the next while which has been a great opportunity to change something that has been relatively static for a long time. Manufacturers can now make cheap carbon wheels too which is great. The costs of bikes has increased significantly. The bike industry loves it too as higher prices give more margin, and most consumers can no longer maintain their brakes so lots more work for them. etc etc. Yes, I know most people enthusiastic enough to be on this forum can manage the maintenance.
In pro racing, the extent of the gain from running rim brakes is not worth the team having to pay for their equipment (a big part of their budgets) so they are rolling with the change. Since they are ubiquitous now - the disadvantages are mitigated somewhat because everyone is in the same boat.
Meanwhile I'll just keep riding what I've got. The bikes are light and ride beautifully. The stopping power is progressive, strong and in proportion to the grip from the 25mm (maximum I can fit) tyres in both the wet and the dry. More than enough to stop me on any hill in my area. They are cheap to maintain and the pads last a very very long time (current ones are at a bit over 8000k and not half worn). I never have all the whacky array of disc brake noises. Oh well.. it works for me. At least I know I'm not alone.
It seems strange to mention cost if that is your path though.
25mm tyres are small these days. A side effect of disc brakes is there is more clearance for larger tyres.
With respect to carbon wheels another disc advantage is the rim is not subjected to heat and wear from the rubber blocks clamping down on whatever grit and crap has come up off the road. More pronounced in the wet and conversely braking is notably considerably worse, unlike disc.
Those expensive wheels that are so nice to ride are going to last much longer in disc braked form.
With respect to braking noise the sand and grit that caused this on one long wet commute was not great to listen to either.
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Re: Disc brakes or not
Postby trailgumby » Thu Jul 21, 2022 7:20 pm
I will not miss listening to that, nor will I miss having to clean off that sticky sludge or pick out bits of aluminium and grit from my brake pads.
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Re: Disc brakes or not
Postby Thoglette » Thu Jul 21, 2022 8:20 pm
…buy bike shaped objects from Kmart or similar.
The Freds will buy whatever the press is breathlessly praising and then suffer FOMO when next-year’s infinitely better model hits the streets.
Meanwhile the other 2% of us will make a considered decision when the time finally comes.
<edit>
To be clear, my next rear wheel on the commuter may have a disc. Just got to wear the current one out before I have to make that decision
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- Comedian
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Re: Disc brakes or not
Postby Comedian » Fri Jul 22, 2022 11:56 am
See.. that's the thing that people I think should be cognisant about. I know I try to be.warthog1 wrote: ↑Thu Jul 21, 2022 6:53 pmI guess if you spend a significant amount on a Baum and it is rim brake, well changing the frame and fork easily to disc brake is not going to be cheap or easy.Comedian wrote: ↑Thu Jul 21, 2022 4:58 pmI don't know.. I reckon this is going exactly as I expected it would. Manufacturers have gleefully embraced disc brakes to the point where it's getting hard to buy rim braked bikes. Everyone is happy - they've had some of the best years on record (yes there were other factors at play). It's an immature technology so is likely to be changing quite a lot for the next while which has been a great opportunity to change something that has been relatively static for a long time. Manufacturers can now make cheap carbon wheels too which is great. The costs of bikes has increased significantly. The bike industry loves it too as higher prices give more margin, and most consumers can no longer maintain their brakes so lots more work for them. etc etc. Yes, I know most people enthusiastic enough to be on this forum can manage the maintenance.
In pro racing, the extent of the gain from running rim brakes is not worth the team having to pay for their equipment (a big part of their budgets) so they are rolling with the change. Since they are ubiquitous now - the disadvantages are mitigated somewhat because everyone is in the same boat.
Meanwhile I'll just keep riding what I've got. The bikes are light and ride beautifully. The stopping power is progressive, strong and in proportion to the grip from the 25mm (maximum I can fit) tyres in both the wet and the dry. More than enough to stop me on any hill in my area. They are cheap to maintain and the pads last a very very long time (current ones are at a bit over 8000k and not half worn). I never have all the whacky array of disc brake noises. Oh well.. it works for me. At least I know I'm not alone.
It seems strange to mention cost if that is your path though.
25mm tyres are small these days. A side effect of disc brakes is there is more clearance for larger tyres.
With respect to carbon wheels another disc advantage is the rim is not subjected to heat and wear from the rubber blocks clamping down on whatever grit and crap has come up off the road. More pronounced in the wet and conversely braking is notably considerably worse, unlike disc.
Those expensive wheels that are so nice to ride are going to last much longer in disc braked form.
With respect to braking noise the sand and grit that caused this on one long wet commute was not great to listen to either.
As the cycling tips guys said.. if you live in a predominantly dry area then you may be very happy with what your rim braked bike. Manufacturers are still actively providing new and improved parts. Should be good for a while yet.
https://podcasts.apple.com/au/podcast/r ... 0568353981
Personally - if I was in a position where I wanted to ride my road bike in the rain often then I would absolutely consider a disc braked road bike. But Brisbane is in general pretty dry and I find riding in the rain taudry and I try and avoid it. It's not just the discomfort - it's the cleaning - and it's hard on everything (I need a new fly6 every wet ride ). For sport rides - if I think it's going to rain then I'm probably not going to bother. I'll zwift. And if do decide to go ahead I can assure you I'm not going to take the Baum. (Even though I know it's makers would pour scorn on me for that!). In the 18,000k it's done it's had two wet "sport" rides and got misted on a couple of commutes.
The only time I ever ride a road bike in the rain is commuting when you get "caught" by it raining on the way home - but even then that only happens a few times a year (like less than five!). If I'm convinced it's going to rain when I leave the house I'm going to take a bike with mud guards and disc brakes. Or maybe I might ride the MTB and enjoy some damp gravel.
So, The lynskey is now over 40,000k and I think it's on like it's third set of pads and original wheels (h plus son alloys). I can still see the wear indicator on the front rim. I mean maybe I will wear the wheels out from using rim brakes.. but maybe I might feel like a change by then!
As to the performance.. as I keep saying my brakes work really well and I just don't have a problem stopping on any of the terrain I ride around. The only person I know in recent times to be injured from not being able to stop was riding a disc brake bike.
As to the cost, I seem to sink so much money into off road bikes I really like that the only thing I ever have to buy for the roadies is tyres! Of all the bikes in my fleet - by far and away the cheapest by KM to run are the roadies.
I could definitely afford to buy and run a disc braked roadie - but I just don't feel the need. I really like my road bikes! Baring the unforeseen I think I'll be riding them for many years to come.
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Re: Disc brakes or not
Postby am50em » Fri Jul 22, 2022 12:01 pm
And if they were riding rim brakes they wouldn't have been injured???The only person I know in recent times to be injured from not being able to stop was riding a disc brake bike.
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Re: Disc brakes or not
Postby Comedian » Fri Jul 22, 2022 12:05 pm
I didn't say that.. I've got no idea. I mean I've done it a few times on rims without issues, but it requires caution. He said he had the lever to the bar and couldn't stop. For those playing at home it was the steep side of Mt Glorious so it's probably the worst (on brakes) descent in the BNE area. I'm just saying that people with disc brakes have issues too.
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Re: Disc brakes or not
Postby Comedian » Fri Jul 22, 2022 12:15 pm
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Re: Disc brakes or not
Postby Thoglette » Fri Jul 22, 2022 12:54 pm
As poor old Jack Bauer found out this week.
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Re: Disc brakes or not
Postby Mr Purple » Fri Jul 22, 2022 1:28 pm
I definitely benefited from transferring to disc (Ultegra Hydraulic) but on my climbing build will be going back to rim brakes.
This is purely to do with cost and weight. I know perfectly well rim brakes are worse in the wet, but I'm unlikely to be riding a sub 6kg carbon wheeled rim brake bike in the wet anyway. I think if the rim and disc options were both the same price and the same weight I'd go disc again.
I think rim brakes are good enough in 'almost' every situation. But that does not include going down the front of Cootha towards the stop sign, in the wet, at 70km/hr.
The simpler solution is to 'not go down the front of Cootha towards the stop sign in the wet at 70km/hr' but where's the fun in that?
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