Disc brakes or not

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ldrcycles
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Re: Disc brakes or not

Postby ldrcycles » Fri Feb 16, 2018 10:11 pm

Thoglette wrote:
ldrcycles wrote:I was rabidly against discs when they first started to appear on road bikes.

Didn't think you were that old :D
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Complete with asbestos pads :shock:
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Re: Disc brakes or not

Postby Jmuzz » Tue Feb 20, 2018 11:17 am

Current negatives are:
Heavier
More expensive for otherwise same bike
Worse levers (eg not proper Ultegra grade/style)
External cable routing
Double price wheels (less sales, almost no secondhand market)
Compatibility hassles with trainers/racks

Pros are:
Better braking performance and feel, especially when wet.

If you don't need better braking then you shouldn't get them yet. But I think the negatives will be dealt with in the next generation or two and they will become the standard. Rim brakes will become for retro styling. Probably at least a decade before full transition.

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silentC
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Re: Disc brakes or not

Postby silentC » Tue Feb 20, 2018 11:57 am

Interesting list. When I bought my Merida Ride Disc it was several hundred cheaper than the rim brake version. As far as I am aware there are now disc versions of all dual control levers for mechanical and Di2 in Ultegra and Dura Ace group sets. I have Shimano ST-RS685 which are Ultegra-level. My hydraulic lines are internally routed. With wheels it is difficult to compare apples with apples, but my DT Swiss R24 splines retailed for around $300 and the rim version for around $280, depending where you look. I've only had my bike on a roof rack once and the rack had mounting for through axles, I think it is quite common. It also fits in my mag trainer no problems.

But your 'pro' is spot on ;)
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cyclotaur
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Re: Disc brakes or not

Postby cyclotaur » Tue Feb 20, 2018 12:30 pm

Jmuzz raises some interesting arguments. Some possible responses below.
Jmuzz wrote:Current negatives are:
Heavier - Only for weight weenies ?
More expensive for otherwise same bike - Running out rim brake bikes at lower price points?
Worse levers (eg not proper Ultegra grade/style) - Never had Ultegra level, so....
External cable routing - My new bike has full internal routing.
Double price wheels (less sales, almost no secondhand market) - Won't be long now. Most secondhand rim wheels are OEMs replaced by pricier ones anyway.
Compatibility hassles with trainers/racks - Stick your old rim brake bike on the trainer and leave it there.

Pros are:
Better braking performance and feel, especially when wet. - True.

If you don't need better braking then you shouldn't get them yet. But I think the negatives will be dealt with in the next generation or two and they will become the standard. Rim brakes will become for retro styling. Probably at least a decade before full transition.
Think back a decade - I doubt it will take that long for a general transition to road-discs.
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Re: Disc brakes or not

Postby bychosis » Tue Feb 20, 2018 12:36 pm

Jmuzz wrote:If you don't need better braking then you shouldn't get them yet. But I think the negatives will be dealt with in the next generation or two and they will become the standard. Rim brakes will become for retro styling. Probably at least a decade before full transition.

Transition for high spec bikes? MTB have been running disc brakes for many years now, but base model bikes still have v-brakes - partially because cheap disc brakes are not as good as cheap(er) v-brakes. It is not entirely uncommon to see a basic MTB frame with both mounts.
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Re: Disc brakes or not

Postby g-boaf » Tue Feb 20, 2018 12:36 pm

ldrcycles wrote:
Thoglette wrote:
ldrcycles wrote:I was rabidly against discs when they first started to appear on road bikes.

Didn't think you were that old :D
Image
Shimano 1975, full hydraulic
(Much, much, more in this Bikeforums thread)


Complete with asbestos pads :shock:


Asbestos was used in many applications that you wouldn't expect back in the old days. In the old days, some race-drivers who were competing for the works Porsche team had troubles with the footwells of their cars getting too hot and even with race shoes on, their feet were burning and blistering. The chief engineer sewed together "asbestos booties" to put over their racing shoes. :shock: You would not do that today. That would have been in the mid 70s.

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P!N20
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Re: Disc brakes or not

Postby P!N20 » Tue Feb 20, 2018 12:48 pm

Jmuzz wrote:If you don't need better braking then you shouldn't get them yet.


And really, who needs better braking? :P

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cyclotaur
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Re: Disc brakes or not

Postby cyclotaur » Tue Feb 20, 2018 1:54 pm

P!N20 wrote:
Jmuzz wrote:If you don't need better braking then you shouldn't get them yet.

And really, who needs better braking? :P

I hardly ever use mine....don't go fast enough most of the time !! :D
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Re: Disc brakes or not

Postby Jmuzz » Tue Feb 20, 2018 5:04 pm

cyclotaur wrote:.
Think back a decade - I doubt it will take that long for a general transition to road-discs.


Thinking full transition, where nobody at all would buy a new rim brake bike and there is no argument about advantages/disadvantages since the disks will be better in every way.

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Re: Disc brakes or not

Postby Duck! » Tue Feb 20, 2018 7:04 pm

Jmuzz wrote:Current negatives are:
Worse levers (eg not proper Ultegra grade/style)
External cable routing

1: That's plain incorrect. Non-series does not mean inferior, just that Shimano opted to market them as supplementary models beyond the defined "groupsets". The R785 levers are essentially a hydraulic adaptation of the 6770 & 6870 Ultegra Di2 levers, sharing the same electronic bits and same material construction. The only thing they lack is the additional ports for connecting satellite shifters. RS685 levers share the mechanical guts with 6800 Ultegra, similarly the RS505 and RS405 share their shifting internals with 5800 105 & 4700 Tiagra respectively; therefore they are at least the parallel of their "named" mechanical brake counterparts. Additionally, the current Dura-Ace and Ultegra groups do now fully incorporate hydraulic disc options, effectively replacing the R785 & RS685 models and RS805 calipers. Presumably the 105-level RS505 will be replaced with a 105-branded model when that groupset's new evolution is released later this year.

2: The hose routing is no more external than any other modern brake system.
I had a thought, but it got run over as it crossed my mind.

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Re: Disc brakes or not

Postby kb » Wed Feb 21, 2018 2:04 pm

Jmuzz wrote:
cyclotaur wrote:.
Think back a decade - I doubt it will take that long for a general transition to road-discs.


Thinking full transition, where nobody at all would buy a new rim brake bike and there is no argument about advantages/disadvantages since the disks will be better in every way.

Ha ha. We haven’t got there with gears yet.
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foo on patrol
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Re: Disc brakes or not

Postby foo on patrol » Sat Feb 24, 2018 9:59 am

I like the disc braking on my 29er but then again, if rim brakes had better pad compounds and worked better in the wet and on CF rims, there wouldn't be this argument. :idea:

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Re: Disc brakes or not

Postby Mububban » Mon Feb 26, 2018 12:36 pm

The weather forecast for yesterday's 100km hill event said thunderstorms and high winds. Luckily this didn't eventuate, but I was glad I have a disc brake bike so didn't have to worry if it had been raining. Not sure how all those carbon rims would have gone on wet descents.
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Re: Disc brakes or not

Postby MichaelB » Mon Feb 26, 2018 1:13 pm

Jmuzz wrote:Current negatives are:
Heavier
More expensive for otherwise same bike
Worse levers (eg not proper Ultegra grade/style)
External cable routing
Double price wheels (less sales, almost no secondhand market)
Compatibility hassles with trainers/racks

Pros are:
Better braking performance and feel, especially when wet.

If you don't need better braking then you shouldn't get them yet. But I think the negatives will be dealt with in the next generation or two and they will become the standard. Rim brakes will become for retro styling. Probably at least a decade before full transition.


The above (as has been pointed out) a list of the common mis-conceptions re discs and their pros/cons.

Meh, I'll stick with my better braking performance, minor weight penalty, lower servicing requirements (but different), slightly worse than a bee's reproductive organ aero impact, and smile at rim brake peeps, especially in winter ...

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Re: Disc brakes or not

Postby Jmuzz » Mon Feb 26, 2018 2:04 pm

There is Ultegra series levers now, so that was a bad example choice.
No 105 though, and no the 505 levers are not as nice as 5800 series levers. Surely that will change soon with new 105 series but that is not on any bike for sale. Giant convert cable levers to hydraulic in the stem though.

The rest is all true.
You can argue that it's minor and doesn't matter to you and shouldn't matter to anyone else, but it is still factors people consider.

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Re: Disc brakes or not

Postby MichaelB » Mon Feb 26, 2018 8:47 pm

Jmuzz wrote:....

The rest is all true.
.....


Not arguing. But it isn’t.

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Defy The Odds
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Re: Disc brakes or not

Postby Defy The Odds » Mon Feb 26, 2018 10:20 pm

I just recently bought a gravel 2018 Giant Toughroad SLR GX 0. It comes with SRAM Apex 1 Hydraulic discs.

My other bike is a 2013 Giant Defy Composite with SRAM Apex mechanical and rim brakes.

I have ridden the Toughroad over the last 2 weeks and on Sunday I was tidying them both up.

I went for a quick test ride on the Defy and I couldn't believe the stark difference in braking.

The braking on the discs was progressive, powerful and fluid.

Up until the Toughroad, I actually thought the Defy braked really well. The discs are next level.

I was sceptical before but I can definitely see the difference.

The other bonus is you could get a nice set of carbon wheels and they would stay immaculate because you would not need a brake track on the rim.

Discs are definitely the future standard

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Re: Disc brakes or not

Postby MichaelB » Tue Feb 27, 2018 8:42 am

Defy The Odds wrote:I just recently bought a gravel 2018 Giant Toughroad SLR GX 0. It comes with SRAM Apex 1 Hydraulic discs.
....
Up until the Toughroad, I actually thought the Defy braked really well. The discs are next level.

I was sceptical before but I can definitely see the difference.
...


Main thing is your happy :-)

But agree with your findings :!: :wink:

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Re: Disc brakes or not

Postby bychosis » Tue Feb 27, 2018 9:50 am

MichaelB wrote:
Defy The Odds wrote:I just recently bought a gravel 2018 Giant Toughroad SLR GX 0. It comes with SRAM Apex 1 Hydraulic discs.
....
Up until the Toughroad, I actually thought the Defy braked really well. The discs are next level.

I was sceptical before but I can definitely see the difference.
...


Main thing is your happy :-)

But agree with your findings :!: :wink:

I had similar findings when comparing back to back (but comparing flat bar v-brakes with flat bar discs.
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Re: Disc brakes or not

Postby queequeg » Tue Mar 27, 2018 11:08 pm

SO, I went with the TRP HY/RD Brakes, and finally got around to installing them. I had nightmares with the lever pull, with the levers almost touching the bars before they grab the pads.

So, cue lots of google searching and cursing thinking that I had done something wrong....nope, turns out that the HY/RD calipers are designed to work with the 11-sp road levers sets that have a longer cable pull than my 10sp lever set (the only 10sp levers they will work with are the Tiagra 4700, which has the same cable pull as the 11sp series)

So, off to youtube looking for hacks, searching on BNA etc. Anyway, I found a temporary fix, which was to just unscrew the pinchbolt from the top of the arm and attach it underneath instead, then route the cable under the arm instead of over it, and that gave me enough pull to stop the levers bottoming out.

In the meantime, I found a guy in the USA who sells a Short Pull version of the Actuator Arms, which are designed to work with the 10-sp levers that have the shorter cable pull. He should have stock again in about 3 weeks, and that will make the calipers produce the right amount of lever throw. If I ever go 11-sp, I just fit the original actuator arm.
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Re: Disc brakes or not

Postby Duck! » Wed Mar 28, 2018 1:05 am

What model levers are you using? The biggest change in brake cable pull came with the update between 1st & 2nd-gen 10-sp (7900 Dura-ace & derivatives). There is very little difference between 2nd-gen 10-sp. & 11-sp. brake pull.
I had a thought, but it got run over as it crossed my mind.

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Re: Disc brakes or not

Postby queequeg » Wed Mar 28, 2018 6:59 am

Duck! wrote:What model levers are you using? The biggest change in brake cable pull came with the update between 1st & 2nd-gen 10-sp (7900 Dura-ace & derivatives). There is very little difference between 2nd-gen 10-sp. & 11-sp. brake pull.


I am running SRAM Rival 10-sp, currrent generation carbon weave levers. I was using them fine with BB7-R.

I have since found out that the TRP HY/RD calipers are specifically designed for running with Shimano SLR-EV Brake Levers, which allegedly includes SRAM 11sp levers.

You can’t adjust the TRP calipers due to their design.

Anyway, I have ordered a set of replacement actuator arms that convert them for use with the 10sp levers. Will see how that goes.
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Re: Disc brakes or not

Postby trailgumby » Wed Mar 28, 2018 12:05 pm

Noticed last weekend that over half my road group now are all on disc brake bikes. Looks like I'd better get one. :D

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Re: Disc brakes or not

Postby Jmuzz » Wed Mar 28, 2018 12:58 pm

Rim options are starting to thin out. Giant has killed rim Defy and Propel, I'm not expecting TCR rim to survive into the 2019 lineup which will mean the largest manufacturer no-longer sells rim carbon bikes (ignoring all the 2018 stock still available).

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Re: Disc brakes or not

Postby P!N20 » Wed Mar 28, 2018 1:54 pm

trailgumby wrote:Noticed last weekend that over half my road group now are all on disc brake bikes. Looks like I'd better get one. :D


That's a good reason to start riding by yourself. :P

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