And then there was 12 ......

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MattyK
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Re: And then there was 12 ......

Postby MattyK » Wed Apr 11, 2018 2:35 pm

Duck! wrote:Given the superstition surrounding 13, I wouldn't be surprised if they skip it & go straight to 14-sp. :mrgreen:

Nah, 13 sp will be left hand drive.

eeksll
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Re: And then there was 12 ......

Postby eeksll » Wed Apr 11, 2018 3:22 pm

more cogs on the rear is inevitable. Although we must be hitting some sort of limit now !

when rim brakes are reduced to a couple of models, the rear spacing for wheels will become 135mm and that almost gives enough space for an extra cog.

MichaelB wrote:
Duck! wrote:
MichaelB wrote:Only $470 for a cassette. Bargain :shock:

Cheaper than SRAM MTB cassettes by a decent whack. And they don't even have titanium sprockets.


And I can get 5 Shimano 105 cassettes (yes, I know not the same weight, blah, blah) and enough for a nice dinner out too with the missus ...


but its not 12 speed. (I pay $27 for my 10 speed tiagra cassettes and thats like more than 15 for the same money.)

The article did say steel cassettes for campag 12 speed not titanium. Plus prices quoted are RRP, dura ace cassette at RRP is basically in the same price bracket.

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P!N20
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Re: And then there was 12 ......

Postby P!N20 » Wed Apr 11, 2018 3:48 pm

Jawa wrote:Not a Campag fan my any margin, though never ridden with their groups either. Is there though any discernible difference between them and Shimano? Eg, Super Record vs Dura-ace


Shimano = reliable.
Campagnolo = spiritual.

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Thoglette
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Meanwhile, back in the real world of HG-71 chains

Postby Thoglette » Fri Apr 13, 2018 12:23 pm

12 Speeds - You Know Where This Is Going
Retrogrouch says all the things we're thinking (and know to be true) but includes this gem from Jobst Brandt.
retrogrouch wrote:In an old Rivendell Reader interview (R.R. 6), Brandt said, "I use down tube shifters and use a 6-speed freewheel because 5-speeds are dead. . . I'm not preoccupied with always being in the right gear or following some unwritten precepts on cadence and the like. I ride a gear that's about right and leave it at that. . . The range of gears hasn't changed much in the last 50 years, only the number of gears in that range. I don't believe they are useful, necessary, or any good for the design of the rear wheel. Five or six is plenty, nine is gratuitous hardware and multiple redundancy."
Stop handing them the stick! - Dave Moulton
"People are worthy of respect, ideas are not." Peter Ellerton, UQ

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singlespeedscott
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Re: And then there was 12 ......

Postby singlespeedscott » Fri Apr 13, 2018 8:34 pm

Just pointing out that campagnolo’s freehub body has remained unchanged since 9 speed. Therefore my 20 year old hubs will run a 12 speed cassette, not that it ever will as my love of Campagnolo ended at 10 speed when everything went to carbon. It doesn’t matter though as my 10 speed stuff is still going strong and likely still be running in 10 years time.
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Howzat
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Re: And then there was 12 ......

Postby Howzat » Sun Apr 15, 2018 12:22 am

Jawa wrote:Not a Campag fan my any margin, though never ridden with their groups either. Is there though any discernible difference between them and Shimano? Eg, Super Record vs Dura-ace

You can tell Campag riders in the bunch; they're the ones decked out in wool jerseys with the Molteni logos, they wear cycling caps they put their own AS stickers in, and you won't find any foam in their espressos. At the start of the ride you find them lighting up a cigarette when all the Shimano riders are breaking out the asthma puffers. Shimano riders put electrolytes in the hydration pack; Campag riders have amphetamines in the grappa. So Campag missed a trick here. Instead of 12 speeds, they should have gone from 11 to 10.

And next year, downtube shifters.

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Tim
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Re: And then there was 12 ......

Postby Tim » Sun Apr 15, 2018 7:39 am

Howzat wrote:Shimano riders put electrolytes in the hydration pack; Campag riders have amphetamines in the grappa.
:lol:

Amphetamine is for Plebs.
Bolivian cocaine thank you.

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Thoglette
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Re: And then there was 12 ......

Postby Thoglette » Sun Apr 15, 2018 10:44 am

Howzat wrote: So Campag missed a trick here. Instead of 12 speeds, they should have gone from 11 to 10.

And next year, downtube shifters.

:D :D :D :D :D :D
While that's as funny as, it's also got more than a grain of truth to it.

The likes of VO and Compass have been doing rather nicely in this space but no-one's doing derailleurs or shifters, shimano or campag. And we're running out of NOS Campag parts (you seen the price of 2000 era 10sp stuff on fleabay recently ?)

And you can prise my Daytona Gruppo out of my cold, dead, espresso-stained fingers. :D
Stop handing them the stick! - Dave Moulton
"People are worthy of respect, ideas are not." Peter Ellerton, UQ

Jawa
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Re: And then there was 12 ......

Postby Jawa » Mon Apr 16, 2018 8:36 am

Howzat wrote:
Jawa wrote:Not a Campag fan my any margin, though never ridden with their groups either. Is there though any discernible difference between them and Shimano? Eg, Super Record vs Dura-ace

You can tell Campag riders in the bunch; they're the ones decked out in wool jerseys with the Molteni logos, they wear cycling caps they put their own AS stickers in, and you won't find any foam in their espressos. At the start of the ride you find them lighting up a cigarette when all the Shimano riders are breaking out the asthma puffers. Shimano riders put electrolytes in the hydration pack; Campag riders have amphetamines in the grappa. So Campag missed a trick here. Instead of 12 speeds, they should have gone from 11 to 10.

And next year, downtube shifters.



Have to admit, I did chuckle reading that ... because I can picture it :lol:

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Re: And then there was 12 ......

Postby softy » Sat Apr 21, 2018 10:30 am

I know we can have a chuckle, we all did it with all the new tech, 8,9,10,11 now 12. I do believe it is the future and all brands will adopt it.

Why, it gives more options to your gears. You can run;
Standard crank with bigger rear cassettes and have bigger chain wrap giving better efficiency and wear.
Or you can run a compact and have better increments
10 and 11t cogs out the back are not efficient and maybe we can have a step back to cassettes starting with a 12 tooth and two easier gears on the other end of the cassette and run bigger chainrings up front. Who can push these 11 cogs anyway?

Of course the price is steep, all brands try it on when it is the new kid on the block.

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Thoglette
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Re: And then there was 12 ......

Postby Thoglette » Sat Apr 21, 2018 7:49 pm

softy wrote:I know we can have a chuckle, we all did it with all the new tech, 8,9,10,11 now 12.

That;s why some of us stopped at 8 for sensible bikes (7 for freewheels), nine for MTB and 10 for blingy prima dona road bikes .

Everything since is silly. Even 10 is a little OTT. I've never snapped a 7/8 chain but have (and seen) several snapped 10sp chains.
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Re: And then there was 12 ......

Postby trailgumby » Sat Apr 21, 2018 11:26 pm

MichaelB wrote:If I was going to shell out that amount of money, personally, I'd go for this

Now, THAT would be worth it. Still wouldn't make me any quicker, but the inner geek in me would love it !!!!

^^^ This! :D

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Re: And then there was 12 ......

Postby trailgumby » Sat Apr 21, 2018 11:31 pm

... and so glad I stayed with 10 speed. Although, this morning, doing Akuna Bay counter-clockwise, I would have really liked a 32T cog out back.

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Re: And then there was 12 ......

Postby Duck! » Sat Apr 21, 2018 11:53 pm

Thoglette wrote:
softy wrote:I know we can have a chuckle, we all did it with all the new tech, 8,9,10,11 now 12.

That;s why some of us stopped at 8 for sensible bikes (7 for freewheels)....

The reason they stopped at 7-sp. for freewheels is because the hub design leaves too much axle not supported by bearings, and highly prone to breaking. 7-sp. freewheel is bad enough for breaking axles. 8+ would be even worse. Axle length/frame width hasn't increased since 8-sp. except allowing for disc brakes, and most backdated 7-sp, is the same overall axle length as 8/9/10/11/12-sp, the only difference is the right side bearing location between freewheel & cassette hubs.
I had a thought, but it got run over as it crossed my mind.

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Re: And then there was 12 ......

Postby Duck! » Sat Apr 21, 2018 11:58 pm

Thoglette wrote: I've never snapped a 7/8 chain but have (and seen) several snapped 10sp chains.

I have, but that was before I was in the bike biz and reused a pin in a chain that is not meant to have its pins reused.

Shimano have had the occasional batch of chains prone to breaking, but that's been a material fault rather than the chain being for a certain number of gears.
I had a thought, but it got run over as it crossed my mind.

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Re: And then there was 12 ......

Postby g-boaf » Sun Apr 22, 2018 2:12 pm

Thoglette wrote:
softy wrote:I know we can have a chuckle, we all did it with all the new tech, 8,9,10,11 now 12.

That;s why some of us stopped at 8 for sensible bikes (7 for freewheels), nine for MTB and 10 for blingy prima dona road bikes .

Everything since is silly. Even 10 is a little OTT. I've never snapped a 7/8 chain but have (and seen) several snapped 10sp chains.



8 is even too many. A guy rode Haute Route Dolomites last year on a single speed bike. So that surely must be adequate for everywhere else.

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Re: And then there was 12 ......

Postby singlespeedscott » Sun Apr 22, 2018 2:35 pm

Or you could even ditch the freewheel and do it fixed :)

Gears have their place though. Most of my geared bikes run 7 speed except for my good roadie which is 10 speed campagnolo. For all of my riding I have to say 7 sprockets on the rear and 2 on the front is more than adequate and to be honest I really dont need anything smaller than a 13 on the rear, even when I run a 46 on the front.
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Re: And then there was 12 ......

Postby g-boaf » Sun Apr 22, 2018 3:15 pm

singlespeedscott wrote:Or you could even ditch the freewheel and do it fixed :)

Gears have their place though. Most of my geared bikes run 7 speed except for my good roadie which is 10 speed campagnolo. For all of my riding I have to say 7 sprockets on the rear and 2 on the front is more than adequate and to be honest I really dont need anything smaller than a 13 on the rear, even when I run a 46 on the front.


I have 11 speed on all of my bikes that aren't fixed gear. They're all pretty much trouble free. Though I'm mechanically sympathetic to them and look after them well.

As for HR on a fixie, good lord that would be hard.

RobertL
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Re: And then there was 12 ......

Postby RobertL » Mon Apr 23, 2018 11:33 am

Duck! wrote:
Thoglette wrote: I've never snapped a 7/8 chain but have (and seen) several snapped 10sp chains.

I have, but that was before I was in the bike biz and reused a pin in a chain that is not meant to have its pins reused.

Shimano have had the occasional batch of chains prone to breaking, but that's been a material fault rather than the chain being for a certain number of gears.


And from what I've read, the Campy 12 speed chain should be stronger than the 11 speed, not weaker. That's because they are keeping the same side plates, and using the same diameter pins, but those pins are slightly shorter making the chain slightly narrower (and those pins slightly stronger).
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Re: And then there was 12 ......

Postby MichaelB » Mon Apr 23, 2018 2:01 pm

RobertL wrote:
And from what I've read, the Campy 12 speed chain should be stronger than the 11 speed, not weaker. That's because they are keeping the same side plates, and using the same diameter pins, but those pins are slightly shorter making the chain slightly narrower (and those pins slightly stronger).


And companies never lie or fudge stuff in their marketing details ... :roll:

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