How Carbon Wheels Are Made In Chinese Factories
- Defy The Odds
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How Carbon Wheels Are Made In Chinese Factories
Postby Defy The Odds » Wed Sep 05, 2018 8:37 am
Would like to know peoples thoughts as I have considered carbon wheels from Chinese sellers before.
Anyone recommend some over the others?
<Video No Longer Available>
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Re: How Carbon Wheels Are Made In Chinese Factories
Postby Mugglechops » Wed Sep 05, 2018 11:53 am
Then sold at a very large mark up.
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Re: How Carbon Wheels Are Made In Chinese Factories
Postby Mububban » Wed Sep 05, 2018 3:06 pm
Defy The Odds wrote:I came across this video on YouTube and found it interesting.
Would like to know peoples thoughts as I have considered carbon wheels from Chinese sellers before.
Anyone recommend some over the others?
This guy's channel has reviews of various Chinese wheelsets, rim and disc. He's a big fan of the ones he's tried and has done thousands of kms on them:
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Re: How Carbon Wheels Are Made In Chinese Factories
Postby Velt » Wed Sep 05, 2018 4:43 pm
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Re: How Carbon Wheels Are Made In Chinese Factories
Postby familyguy » Wed Sep 05, 2018 5:02 pm
Define "outdated"?Velt wrote:I've been taking a cursory glance at chinese wheels but it seems they have outdated rim dimensions. Are there any out there with like a 19-20mm internal width with a 28-30mm external?
18 internal, 25 external:
https://www.wheelsfar.com/road-wheels/c ... elset.html
23 internal, 28 external:
https://www.wheelsfar.com/mtb/29/28mm-w ... -28mm.html
I'm on my third test set of carbon wheels. First set was a Far Sports deep set, which had some issues which were followed up by a replacement set. Make up your own mind here:
https://www.bicycles.net.au/2014/11/rev ... ad-wheels/
The next set was the Wiggle 'house brand' Prime RP50:
https://www.bicycles.net.au/2017/09/tic ... et-review/
Currently testing a set of Prime RP38 Black.
Are Chinese/Taiwanese wheels 'bad', as such? No, don't reckon so.
That said, not all Chinese/Taiwanese carbon wheels are created equal, yet. QC for big brands is what seems to add the dollars as the waste/rejection goes up. Either you sell every set you make at $750 or sell 70% of what you make at $1000 to break even (generalisation, but you get the idea hopefully).
Jim
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Re: How Carbon Wheels Are Made In Chinese Factories
Postby Velt » Wed Sep 05, 2018 5:29 pm
Pretty much thatfamilyguy wrote: Define "outdated"?
18 internal, 25 external:
https://www.wheelsfar.com/road-wheels/c ... elset.html
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Re: How Carbon Wheels Are Made In Chinese Factories
Postby Duck! » Wed Sep 05, 2018 10:28 pm
Or just different bandwagons? Different dimensions for different purposes.Velt wrote:Pretty much thatfamilyguy wrote: Define "outdated"?
18 internal, 25 external:
https://www.wheelsfar.com/road-wheels/c ... elset.html
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Re: How Carbon Wheels Are Made In Chinese Factories
Postby Duck! » Wed Sep 05, 2018 10:41 pm
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Re: How Carbon Wheels Are Made In Chinese Factories
Postby AUbicycles » Thu Sep 06, 2018 7:11 am
Consistency is an ongoing issue - things can get sloppy so a mistake can be let through that first manifests later whereas for production of brand name wheels, there is a higher level of concentration to avoid mistakes and errors / flaws are weeded out.
I hear of far fewer failures these days, both in brand name and the cheap Chinese wheels. The brand names can have a superior performing wheel - with material selection, attention to detail in assembly and an overall more considered construction, the result can be more finesse.
To elaborate, a cheaper wheel could be built to be bomb proof... and as a result comfort can suffer. The pairing of the brake pads and braking surface could be suboptimal, there could be no genuine design for aerodynamics... or dubious 'performance theories' could be featured and there could be other deficits - such as more sideways flex.
But a cheap carbon fiber wheel may still be an advantage and depending on rider skill, the deficits may be negligible or even remain unnoticed. When there are no big prizes and the wheels are safe and look good, then it may not even be an issue. Add to the mix, big name wheels which serve marketing more than genuine performance... sometimes a wheel that is three or four times the cost is much closer in actual performance that you would believe.
To summarise, Chinese carbon fiber wheels are an option. Go for the bigger name brands for a bit more certainty. Overall they offer a lower quality and genuine performance than reputable brands but it depends how much you need, how much you actually can recognise... and how much value it adds to your riding.
(AT) Mububban, thanks for sharing the video.
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Re: How Carbon Wheels Are Made In Chinese Factories
Postby familyguy » Thu Sep 06, 2018 9:00 am
Er, that didn't really define anything. Are you running 28 on everything? That rim isn't going to suit. Are you running 25? That would work well. Do you climb on 23? Good rim. Horses for course, and without knowing your course, 'outdated' is a relative term.Velt wrote:Pretty much thatfamilyguy wrote: Define "outdated"?
18 internal, 25 external:
https://www.wheelsfar.com/road-wheels/c ... elset.html
Everything old is new again...after all.
Jim
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Re: How Carbon Wheels Are Made In Chinese Factories
Postby Mulger bill » Thu Sep 06, 2018 8:28 pm
To be fair, decal designers don't come cheap...Mugglechops wrote:I think you may find that a lot of the carbon wheels with boutique brand names on them come from the same factories.
Then sold at a very large mark up.
London Boy 29/12/2011
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Re: How Carbon Wheels Are Made In Chinese Factories
Postby Duck! » Thu Sep 06, 2018 8:39 pm
Can you vouch for that? There is evidence that paying a Big Brand Premium is no guarantee of quality to warrant the price. The performance difference is likely insignificant to many riders.AUbicycles wrote:
To summarise, .... Go for the bigger name brands for a bit more certainty. Overall they (the Chinese - Duck's edit) offer a lower quality and genuine performance than reputable brands ...
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Re: How Carbon Wheels Are Made In Chinese Factories
Postby Thoglette » Thu Sep 06, 2018 8:59 pm
This. QC - all the way down the supply chain.AUbicycles wrote:When big brands produce in China, the QC keeps it in line
Every supplier must understand that saving 5c is not a saving if you kill the business.
I lived this two decades ago and then again a decade ago. Nothing changed. In fact, the "but it was cheaper" excuse seems to have infected other parts of the world.
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Re: How Carbon Wheels Are Made In Chinese Factories
Postby AUbicycles » Fri Sep 07, 2018 12:02 am
I am shifting your comments around to start with this... I agree and hence my comment "But a cheap carbon fiber wheel may still be an advantage and depending on rider skill, the deficits may be negligible or even remain unnoticed. "Duck! wrote:The performance difference is likely insignificant to many riders.
Not with lab evidence... only as a generalisation based on my own experience and observations.Duck! wrote:Can you vouch for that? There is evidence that paying a Big Brand Premium is no guarantee of quality to warrant the price.AuBicycles wrote:To summarise, .... Go for the bigger name brands for a bit more certainty. Overall they (the Chinese - Duck's edit) offer a lower quality and genuine performance than reputable brands ...
For brands like Yoleo, Farsport, Dengfu, Hongfu, Xmcarbonspeed, Light Bicycle, Yishun and co, the actual business structure and other brands from whom they produce (or who actually produces) is not immediately visible. This makes it harder to judge. Where a business model is focussed on copying but there is less time for Engineering and R&D... the actual handling and performance benefits can be inferior... the result may be 'good enough' for many, but still noticeable. But if a big brand just buys off the shelf and simply stickers up their wheels - they may well be almost identical to a wheel available from China direct for less.
I realise that I am not helping my own argument but the market isn't black and white.
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Re: How Carbon Wheels Are Made In Chinese Factories
Postby Duck! » Fri Sep 07, 2018 12:53 am
The same was said of the japanese 50-odd years ago; criticised for copying rather than doing anything new, but in the end often turned out to be doing things better than those they were accused of copying.... The Chinese appear to be following a similar pattern, with their own twist. The vibe I get from some sources is that the Chinese realise that the western economies perceive them as a source of cheap products, so they play to that and make stuff - whatever it is - to a budget price if they're asked to do so. But on the flip side, if they're asked to do so, they can build to certain quality expectations as well. it is true there is some utter crap coming out of China, not just within a cycling context, but they're finding that there is a balance between high quality and affordability, and they're focusing on that balance with increasing consistency, perhaps moreso that tne Big Name players.AUbicycles wrote: Where a business model is focussed on copying but there is less time for Engineering and R&D... the actual handling and performance benefits can be inferior... the result may be 'good enough' for many, but still noticeable. But if a big brand just buys off the shelf and simply stickers up their wheels - they may well be almost identical to a wheel available from China direct for less.
If you haven't already, I suggest you get in contact with Raoul Luescher at Luescher Teknik, who I believe occasionally posts here under the name whodesigns. I have no professional allegiance to him, although I have referred work to him on occasion and have attended technical seminars he's presented, and have no doubt that he can give greater insight to this topic than I can.
The short version is don't judge a product solely by its place of origin or its price.
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Re: How Carbon Wheels Are Made In Chinese Factories
Postby Neddysmith » Fri Sep 07, 2018 9:12 am
I have a set of GRP carbon clinches which i was a bit suss on when which came with a bike i bought, I tried to do some research about GRP but found little on the web but decided to give em a go, but after riding on em for nearly 5k they have performed great, they have stayed true, roll really well are light and spin up quickly, I changed to a set of Campag Shamal for this winter due to Allot brake surface and riding in the hills more but as the weather improves think ill be putting em back on. No issues at all.
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Re: How Carbon Wheels Are Made In Chinese Factories
Postby biker jk » Fri Sep 07, 2018 10:10 am
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Re: How Carbon Wheels Are Made In Chinese Factories
Postby Thoglette » Fri Sep 07, 2018 11:07 am
+1 This. In my (limited) experienceDuck! wrote:....so they play to that and make stuff - whatever it is - to a budget price if they're asked to do so. But on the flip side, if they're asked to do so, they can build to certain quality expectations as well.
"People are worthy of respect, ideas are not." Peter Ellerton, UQ
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Re: How Carbon Wheels Are Made In Chinese Factories
Postby AUbicycles » Fri Sep 07, 2018 3:34 pm
Havn't spoken to Raoul personally but have also referred people to him and following him - he cuts open a lot of bikes and talks about the production... No doubt you know his own youtube channel:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCY9JUM ... Hpb_zbIedQ
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Re: How Carbon Wheels Are Made In Chinese Factories
Postby MichaelB » Fri Sep 07, 2018 3:40 pm
I'll double & triple that with my longish experience in the automotive sector (Manufacturing Engineer at Holden & on Supplier side with Exhausts & Power Steering/Brakes).Thoglette wrote:+1 This. In my (limited) experienceDuck! wrote:....so they play to that and make stuff - whatever it is - to a budget price if they're asked to do so. But on the flip side, if they're asked to do so, they can build to certain quality expectations as well.
Bottom line is you'll get what you are willing to pay for.
I've seen some pretty horrid stuff, but I've also seen some VERY switched on suppliers with better equipment and facilities than back home.
Went to one supplier in Shenzen, and was really impressed with their factory, and they were keen to do a reciprocal visit to our plant. Thankfully I was able to convince them that it wasn't feasible, yet we were riding them really hard over their systems and QC when ours was worse than theirs .
Only thing we did better was the pay and conditions for the workers.....
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Re: How Carbon Wheels Are Made In Chinese Factories
Postby hamishm » Fri Sep 07, 2018 3:59 pm
I'm still chuckingly at the irony that that SRAM started out by copying Shimano....Duck! wrote:The same was said of the japanese 50-odd years ago; criticised for copying rather than doing anything new, but in the end often turned out to be doing things better than those they were accused of copying....
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Re: How Carbon Wheels Are Made In Chinese Factories
Postby CKinnard » Mon Aug 05, 2019 8:49 pm
We got burned.
The test sets they sent us were ok.
We later learned Farsports is just a marketing agency for a company that outsources carbon rim production to dozens of backyard operators.
QC was unpredictable in those days.
Nevertheless, Farsports like a lot of Chinese start ups is keen to make a dollar.
From time to time I check forums and Farsport advertising for customer feedback and offerings.
They seem to have cleaned up their act again.
Another brand I am exploring now which is much cheaper is ICAN.
legend Jim Langley rates them, and they are much cheaper than Farsports.
https://youtu.be/TmPdCDja84E
I am about to hit the button a 38mm set.
My view is I'd rather spend <$600 on a set and replace them in 15,000km than spend $2500 on Euro that might last 5,000km more before needing new hubs, or being replaced outright.
Either way, the secret to a good Chinese wheelset experience is to keep your bodyweight under 80kg.
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Re: How Carbon Wheels Are Made In Chinese Factories
Postby AUbicycles » Mon Aug 05, 2019 9:14 pm
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Re: How Carbon Wheels Are Made In Chinese Factories
Postby GravelFinder » Wed Aug 07, 2019 7:50 pm
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Re: How Carbon Wheels Are Made In Chinese Factories
Postby CKinnard » Wed Aug 07, 2019 9:49 pm
what criteria do you use forGravelFinder wrote:I have ridden Hed, Corima, Zipp etc. However, now my kids are more expensive... I am on some Chinese wheels, which so far have lasted 3 years, they are rock solid. Use a reputable factory, dont get super light ones and they should be fine.
- 'reputable factory'?
- 'light ones'?
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