650b: hype?

Virgil Walker
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650b: hype?

Postby Virgil Walker » Mon Nov 02, 2015 10:02 pm

Pardon me if this has been asked before:

Has anyone here used 650b tyres for audax?

I'm thinking of building a new (custom) bike and am considering my options. I've ridden 25mm & 28mm 700c tyres forever, but must admit that riding on coarse chip seal & gravel roads is becoming less & less comfortable as I approach my seventh decade. And I often do 3–5 day hotel-stay tours carrying my own baggage in Europe & Japan where there can be a lot of shifting from road to sidewalk &c; less "aggressive" tyres might be an advantage there.

There's a lot of blather about 650b tyres for "randonneuring", esp. on US sites. I've seen a few 650b bikes in Australia—all being ridden very slowly by people in tight jeans. I've never seen a 650b bike at an Audax event (that's not to say they're not being used). Does anyone here have any experience with them? Are they as fast as Jan Heine et al. make out? (I find Jan Heine interesting but irritatingly evangelical—and people on his blog, perhaps even Heine himself, seem to forget that he has a commercial interest in the things he writes about. But that's another story.)

Basically, I like to use my bike to get myself to places, then leave my luggage & go in Audax-type events. I don't like stiff commuter tyres much and am wondering if it's worth thinking about 650b. My preference is for easily replaceable components and I know it's more difficult to get 650b tyres (for instance, I've never seen them in a bike shop in Japan) but for comfort *and* speed I might be prepared to take a risk.

Another option would be light 32–35mm 700c, I guess, though my experience with the larger Challenge tyres wasn't encouraging.

Anyway, I'd like to hear from anyone with actual experience of using 650b or who knows someone using them.

Thanks in advance.

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Re: 650b: hype?

Postby just4tehhalibut » Tue Nov 03, 2015 6:41 am

There was just one rider using 650B wheels out of the 100-odd riding the Perth-Albany-Perth last year, he came from Seattle, USA where that size is more commonly used. Unfortunately he developed a problem with his dynamo hub and we had no way to fix it in the field, no spare wheels in 650B to swap out, he had to suffer the last 900km on a front wheel that was wobbling apart.

Didn't leave me impressed with his bike setup.

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Re: 650b: hype?

Postby Virgil Walker » Tue Nov 03, 2015 11:14 am

Yes. That's exactly the sort of thing that worries me.

However, I'm still interested to know how well this size of tyre rolls (specifically the type of lightweight tyre Heine goes on about).

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Re: 650b: hype?

Postby just4tehhalibut » Tue Nov 03, 2015 12:20 pm

Maybe google "650b randonneur" and look for reviews, I don't think that you'll find much locally. The bike that I saw was a beautiful Boulder frame, hammered ali fenders, Berthoud bag up front - just had a fatal equipment issue. The fat 650B wheels would have been comfortable on some of the bumpier sections of our PAP course and would have suited that group of riders, the Seattle crew were diehard 22kph riders. Legend is that they'd ride up and down at 22kph regardless. Their style of bike is about 'slow but tough', yet somehow they were nearly all on 700C, most had fenders and handlebar bags. Most Aussie Audaxers avoid bar bags or front racks, go for narrow tyres and carbon frames, lighter and lighter wheels as they get older - a very different approach. Not like when Audax first started in Australia and your bike was required to have mudguards and a gentlemens touring setup.

Here's some blog article that will talk you into using 650B but I think that you're making more a choice about riding style - carbon fast or chunky tyres and bar bag slow - and if you choose the 'slow' then you still don't have to go 650B, there's plenty of 700C narrow and wide (occasionally called 29ers) and a good choice in 26". Both will be easier to find if you travel overseas for a rando.

I'm two days away from building my next Audax bike, chunky bald 26" wheels and slow but comfy.

Edit: for those wondering, 650B is 584mm, 700C is 622mm and our local version of 26" is 559mm bead seat diameter.
Last edited by just4tehhalibut on Tue Nov 03, 2015 12:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Thoglette
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Re: 650b: hype?

Postby Thoglette » Tue Nov 03, 2015 12:27 pm

Virgil Walker wrote:However, I'm still interested to know how well this size of tyre rolls (specifically the type of lightweight tyre Heine goes on about).


Well, you've got to understand a little of the history of 650B, particularly it's revival in the USoA.

It appears to have arisen as a way of putting fat tyres into 700C road frames (see Sheldon for example) to create touring bikes for those who didn't want to spend on custom or antique french stuff. Eventually the market gained enough momentum (thanks to Grant Pederson, Heine, BQ, Rivendell and a few others) that new bits (frames, rims, tyres) were "commonly" available in the US.

Here in .au we basically ignored this and instead toured on either 27" or 26" wheels (for example the Gemini Randonneur) as these were the only sizes of wheel for which wide tyres were available. But they were usually bloody heavy and stiff and so we "knew" that skinny (700C) tyres were faster.

The need for new 605B tyres resulted in a bunch of "what if" questions being asked by the American iconoclasts (who had also rediscovered or never abandoned tubular tyres) and things like the compass range of tyres were born.

Meanwhile manufacturers started making [http://www.bikesfortherestofus.com/2008/02/wanted-bikes-for-rest-of-us.html]bikes for the rest of us[/url] - and in particular "City" and "Hybrid" bikes with 32mm x 622 wheels. And touring and cyclocross frames have gone from rare-as-rocking-horse-poo to a standard bikeshop line.

So in some senses the "need" for 650B (fitting wide tyres on "10 speed" frames) has gone (along with the weird brake set ups) : now you can have supple, wide, light tyres in 26", 605B and 700C.
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Re: 650b: hype?

Postby HappyHumber » Tue Nov 03, 2015 9:22 pm

Thoglette wrote:....understand a little of the history of 650B, particularly it's revival in the USoA.
Excellent summary. A BNA double worthless +1 to you! ;)
just4tehhalibut wrote:Maybe google "650b randonneur" and look for reviews, I don't think that you'll find much locally.
It would be interesting within the Google searcho-sphere how many of the reviews would be talking up their investment (i.e. expenditure) already made in the various American products like Heine's Compass/Rivendell et al.

otherwise, you might have to find some French online archive of old journal articles, similar to the NLA's Trove to get some French takes on the subject from the supposed 'Glory Days' in Europe, post WW2. But then again, those article probably weren't comparing other size alternatives so much.

According to Heine, the 650b is also alive and well in Japan. However I do also kind of suspect it's niche there as well.

Whilst I'm curious about it myself; I'm not against the size; but just wary of spending money on standards with limited longevity / economic replaceability within my main riding/maintenance plan for the bike.
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Re: 650b: hype?

Postby Virgil Walker » Tue Nov 03, 2015 11:37 pm

Thanks for your replies.

I'm pretty aware of the history of the 650b and its 'revival'. The issue of people talking up their products (Jan Heine, where are you?) and being unable to find, as it were, "unaffiliated" people's experience of 650b tyres is why I originally posted. When looking for online reviews I generally find people just regurgitate stuff from Bicycle Quarterly.

Heine et al. essentially say "these are the greatest thing ever, and BTW they retail for only X-dollars at Heine's shop". However, some people are definitely riding their 650b tyres at more than 22kph. For instance, Heine finished PBP in under 50hrs in 2011, and this year in something like 72hrs—so they can't be all that slow. But I suspect Heine would be fast—certainly faster than me—whatever he rides.

In the few Audax rides I've done—200,300 & 400km events—I've used Vittoria Open Pro CX 25mm 700c tyres or Continental 4x Seasons 28mm (really they're about 26mm) and been more or less happy. I've ridden a titanium cyclo-cross bike for yonks; and I use either a small saddle or handlebar bag. In philosophy, I'm somewhere in between the fast carbon brigade and the slower touring bikes. And that' s usually where I finish on the road, too.

But now I'm finding I feel a bit beaten up on chip seal roads & gravel. That's down to the frame, the wheels & tyres, and my aging body. If I could afford it, I'd get myself something like a Trek Domane with 28 or 30mm tyres for Audax rides and have something else for traveling on o/s. But I can only afford one bike, and when I travel I can only take one bike. It has to be durable & flexible. Ideally, so are the tyres. So I'm contemplating a custom travel frame and exploring my wheel/tyre options. (And I know I could use disc brakes and have 650b and 700c wheelsets, but I can still only take one of them o/s).

BTW, apart from some "converted" bikes that had plainly never been used outside the inner suburbs of Melbourne, I've only ever seen two bikes using 650b tyres. These were in Japan and were hand built "randonneur" style bikes (one was a Cherubim). They had cantilever brakes, triple cranks, internal lighting wiring, mudguards, Nitto racks, the whole deal, and each was at least 30 years old and using what looked like heavy, hard casing, touring-style tyres. I don't know where they got those tyres because in multiple trips to Japan over ten years I've never seen a 650b tyre in a bike shop—though naturally I wasn't looking too hard.

Anyway, I've gone on too much. Probably, I'll end up using 32 or 35mm 700c tyres for travel and perhaps carry some smaller tyres for any Audax events; or just accept I'm going to be slow and use the wider tyres all the time. But even though I'm skeptical about the claims for them and worried about their availability, I'm still open to the possibility of someone saying "I changed to 650b and I saw God". Actually, when I think about it, that's sort of what those boys in Seattle say.

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Re: 650b: hype?

Postby cameronp » Tue Nov 03, 2015 11:52 pm

My understanding from reading the Jan Heine-o-sphere was that the big attractions of 650B were Grand Bois Hetre tyres (supposedly fast, light and comfy) and the availability of frames suited to high front loads (handlebar bags). I note that Compass Bicycles now sells similar tyres in 700C. I wonder if the people raving about 650B will stop doing so when 700C frames are available with the geometry they love.

This style of bike fascinates me, though, and I'd love to ride one to see what it's like compared to the latest in carbon fibre wonderbikes or the steel/titanium fat-tyre cyclocross-ish bikes that are often found on Aussie Audax rides. Realistically, that's unlikely to ever happen.

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Re: 650b: hype?

Postby Thoglette » Wed Nov 04, 2015 12:14 pm

cameronp wrote: I note that Compass Bicycles now sells similar tyres in 700C.


Thirty seconds with your favourite search engine would have shown that 700c GBs have been around since at least 2007.
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Re: 650b: hype?

Postby cameronp » Wed Nov 04, 2015 1:05 pm

Thoglette wrote:
cameronp wrote: I note that Compass Bicycles now sells similar tyres in 700C.


Thirty seconds with your favourite search engine would have shown that 700c GBs have been around since at least 2007.


I knew about the GBs but I thought they were only available in narrower sizes for 700C. Jan Heine's blog has recently been raving about Compass Bicycles branded tyres, e.g. Barlow Pass. From Jan's blog: "The wider 700C tires, especially the 38 mm-wide “Barlow Pass”, will allow riders of 700C bikes to enjoy the benefits of supple, fast and wide tires."

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Re: 650b: hype?

Postby HappyHumber » Wed Nov 04, 2015 3:08 pm

I'd like to know a little bit more about Grand Bois itself as a company; seperate to Compass & Herr Heine.

They seem to be one of theses boutique little Japanese manufacturers/bike labels that only really seem to cater for their own domestic market. They offer more to the Japanese Domestic market than just tyres that Heine has negotiated distribution for the rest of the world. I'm certainly not aware of anyone else exporting their kit or bikes out of Japan

Even though it's in Japanese, you can sort of negotiate their site by hovering your mouse over the various links and reading the english text in the URL. Some tantalising bikes and bits there --> Home Page, List of Grand Bois Components and their browseable catalog, hosted elsewhere
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Re: 650b: hype?

Postby Thoglette » Wed Nov 04, 2015 3:58 pm

cameronp wrote:I knew about the GBs but I thought they were only available in narrower sizes for 700C.

Not sure - good point. Wider 700C tubulars have been around for a long time (perhaps not 40mm*) and Panaracer's had wider (if not quite GB spec) decent 700C tyres for quite a while.

A genuine return to the original 700C dimensions is going to make for some pretty big bikes, which really only suit tall riders - as the "29ers" have found out.

But stranger things have happened so who knows?

*700C is nominally a 40mm tyre on 622 rims
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Re: 650b: hype?

Postby find_bruce » Wed Nov 04, 2015 5:53 pm

Thoglette wrote:
cameronp wrote:I knew about the GBs but I thought they were only available in narrower sizes for 700C.

Not sure - good point. Wider 700C tubulars have been around for a long time (perhaps not 40mm*) and Panaracer's had wider (if not quite GB spec) decent 700C tyres for quite a while.

A genuine return to the original 700C dimensions is going to make for some pretty big bikes, which really only suit tall riders - as the "29ers" have found out.

*700C is nominally a 40mm tyre on 622 rims

Dunno about that - my commuter runs a 40-622 rear, suits me just fine & at 5'8" I wouldn't call me tall. Gravel grinder runs 47-622 & no noticeable difference in fit or ride.

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Re: 650b: hype?

Postby Virgil Walker » Sat Nov 07, 2015 7:39 am

Ok, thanks for all that everyone. If anyone has actual experience of Grand Bois, Compass Cycles, or Paris Moto style, "supple & light" 650b tyres, I'm still interested in hearing from you.

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Re: 650b: hype?

Postby grantw » Sat Nov 07, 2015 9:19 am

I know a couple of people who use Grand Bois tyres and are very happy with them. I'm waiting on some compass tyres to try out on my Audax bike (carbon 700c) so will let you know how that goes.

I think the other thing to bear in mind about Jan Heine's liking of 650b style bikes is a combination of a lot of things including the geometry and frame stiffness. There's a sweet spot between the length and flex of the framing material and the volume of air in the tyres that gives you the best power transmission and comfort, which is optimal for long distance riding. Building one of these bikes is an art - that's why Singer and Herse bikes are so valuable these days - but then they were really valuable when they were new.
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Re: 650b: hype?

Postby elfoam » Sat Nov 07, 2015 7:14 pm

Ive been thinking hard about building a do anything bike for a long time now and have decided a 650b wheeled road bike is about as close as ill get, good time to do it now that 27.5/650b tyres are easy to get. Im going to use a old tange 2 frame as a base. The wheelset is probably going to have to be custom. Anyway im interested in similar creations others have built. The nearest thing I have is a 700c 28 tyres flat bar which is great but I think it can be improved on.

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Re: 650b: hype?

Postby Virgil Walker » Sat Nov 07, 2015 10:50 pm

Grantw: yes, I've tried some GB 32mm 700c. Though not in an Audax ride. I think they're Cypres. They ride pretty plushly, tho they *feel* a little slow. I put feel in asterisks because I haven't tested them long term enough to know. They're very good on hard packed gravel or bike paths. Pretty good on wet gravel. My reservation is that both the tyres I bought are neither properly round nor straight. One in particular is crooked enough for it to be visible from off the bike. I don't know that it actually affects its performance but I can't help thinking it can't be good and it irritates me, esp. considering how much they cost.

I'm familiar with Heine's theories and reports about frames, trail, and tyre size. The best riding frame I *think* I ever had was a touring bike I had built in 1979 which, as it happens, had relatively low trail, a very low bottom bracket, Nitto low rider front panniers, and a mixture of Ishiwata 022, 019, and 017. How much was due to geometry, how much to tubing, and how much to my nostalgic view of it I can't say.

I find Heine's theories interesting, but I also find the self promotion and evangelism off putting. I'm skeptical. Which is why I'd like to hear from people with real experience and who aren't part of the self hyping Seattle rando scene.

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Re: 650b: hype?

Postby grantw » Sun Nov 08, 2015 7:17 am

I did the Fleche Opperman last year alongside a team member on GBs (he was riding a Llewellyn which was beautiful - that's a whole other story) and the tyres definitely did not slow him down - I had trouble keeping up on descents and he was very comfortable at the end of the ride.
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Re: 650b: hype?

Postby robHflyte » Sun Nov 29, 2015 11:39 am

I've been using the GB and now Compass tyres for quite some time, all 700C and now the new Rat Trap Pass very wide 26 inch. I've decided not to ride anything else but Compass tyres.
At first these tyres (GB) were constantly being shredded and getting punctures, but I've found that 60psi is the tipping point, under that the tyres last well. very few punctures even commuting in Sydney over glass strewn roads. My commuter has 38 Barlow Pass 700C tyres, usually at 40psi but often down to low 30s before I bother pumping up again. The road bike has the 35mm tyres, I'm pushing harder through corners and feeling confident I can go faster through them.
Handling is extremely good, descents and cornering quite inspiring.
I converted a Europa 700C that takes 25s to a 650b with 38s, worked a treat, just needed new brakes with a longer arm. The bike handled well and over rough ground it continued to roll well.
So impressed with this wide tyre thing I am taking delivery of a 650b custom late December. I get the problem with no replacement wheel, I'm hoping to have the wheel set up so that in the rare possibility of a wheel failure a 700C with narrow (but similar outer circumference) will fit in and only a brake pad height adjustment is required. Or just DNF, not like I haven't DNF'd before.

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Re: 650b: hype?

Postby robHflyte » Sun Nov 29, 2015 11:45 am

Virgil Walker wrote:My reservation is that both the tyres I bought are neither properly round nor straight. One in particular is crooked enough for it to be visible from off the bike. I don't know that it actually affects its performance but I can't help thinking it can't be good and it irritates me, esp. considering how much they cost.


Hi Virgil Walker, you will find that the tyres can be a bit more fiddly to put on rims. If they don't seem round and are not tracking correctly then the tyre most certainly is not mounted correctly. Not that you have not put them on incorrectly, but that the tyres don't seat as well. That goes for the GB tyres anyway, I have the same issue and have to fiddle them in place. I've read that a bit of soapy water can help them slip into place properly, I go with the method of inflating to 85psi to get them to pop into place and then back the pressure off.
I've had less trouble with the Compass versions, for whatever reason.

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Re: 650b: hype?

Postby Virgil Walker » Wed Dec 02, 2015 12:56 am

RobHflyte: hello!
Thanks for your reply. Yes, I'm liking my Grand Bois Cypres more and more. 60psi seems about right for me, too, and I'm not too worried about them deflating to a bit lower.

One of them was definitely out of round though, as I tried seating it in various ways. You could see quite clearly that there was a kind of wave in the tread, and the outer, black layer of rubber was unevenly glued (or vulcanised?) to the casing such that the black section didn't run parallel to the bead. I replaced the tyre.

I must say these tyres are much better than the 28mm Schwalbe One (tubed) tyres that I tried before them. These had so many punctures and wore so quickly they were ridiculous, and the handling was nothing special. I much preferred the Continental 4 x Seasons or 25mm Vittoria Evos, even though they were both much thinner. Neither of those are as plush as the GBs though. The Schwalbes seem to get polarised reviews so they might suffer from poor quality control and I just got a bad set, just as I got one slightly bad GB.

Have you tried the Extra Light versions of GB or Compass tyres? Or considered using disc brakes to solve the compatibility problem? I know there's an argument about fork flexibility/stiffness with disc brakes (and vulnerability when packing) but I've never found either of these a problem and I love the security of discs in the wet. Additionally, do you find much or any difference in speed with the Rat Trap Pass? I'm considering a travel bike, and 26 inch wheels are a little easier to pack and to use in rinko bags in Japan.

Sorry for this long post. Don't feel compelled to answer.

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Re: 650b: hype?

Postby ausrandoman » Wed Dec 02, 2015 7:08 am

The advantages are slight.

The disadvantages might seem minor but can rapidly turn serious. As an example, I was ready to rescue someone on an Audax ride (brought to a halt by dozens of three corner jack, caltrops, whatever you call them) by delivering spare tyres. "Um, I run 650B" "Oh, sorry, I don't have any 650B and no bike shop within 150 km has them."

Jan Heine has a remarkably persuasive talent for convincing people that various unusual bits of gear make him go faster. These bits of gear just happen to be sold by Compass.

There are plenty of low rolling resistance 700 C tyres available.
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Re: 650b: hype?

Postby robHflyte » Wed Dec 02, 2015 9:22 am

"the advantages are slight"
so you've ridden 650b? Did you find the going more comfortable on the rough roads of NSW? I've ridden the same bike now with 700C 25 and 650B 38mm. I'm equal speed on both on smooth roads but far more comfortable descending at speed on the 650b, more comfortable and can sustain more speed over rough surface. There are some roads (unsealed) I just would not tackle on the 25s. YMMV

I'll make sure to carry a spare tyre and some tyre boots in case tyres get shredded. But I do ride the 700C 38s over glass nearly everyday, cycle route is along a route also used by glass recyclers, no problems.

VWalker; fair enough, a bad tyre. I have a bucket full of compass and GB tyres, most the extra light version. Super thin walls, they do need an extra few PSI. I enjoy a lot of dirt riding and have not had any side wall cuts.
I started trying out the Vittoria open corso evo 25s, nice, then put a GB Cypres 28 GB on the back, no slower. Tyre sizes have been growing on the road bike and now maxxed at 35mm Compass Bon Jon Pass. No slower and as I mentioned, cornering is fantastic even on rough roads.
The 38 Barlow Pass on the tourer/commuter are the fastest tyres I've had on that bike. https://www.dropbox.com/s/wm9cri6ox1epi ... 1.pdf?dl=0

Discs would be a good idea but the build is set now and I'm happy with it.

The Rat Trap Pass tyres are not on the ideal bike so I can't comment on speed, but they do look awesome and ride so nicely. :o). These may go on a tandem in the distant future.

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Re: 650b: hype?

Postby Virgil Walker » Mon Dec 07, 2015 1:49 pm

Ausrandoman & robHflyte:
tx again for your replies.

As I pointed out in my original post, the relative difficulty of getting 650b tyres is off-putting. As I wrote, I've only seen a few 650b bikes in Melbourne and only two in Japan (and none in Germany or Italy). The two in Japan were each probably > 30 years old and had stiff touring/commuting tyres. In Japan, a place I've visited regularly for c.10 years, I've never seen any 650b tyres or tubes on display in a bike shop. OTOH, I've never asked for any. However, as robHflyte points out, it's relatively easy to carry a boot and/or spares (on longer Audax rides I sometimes carry a spare 700c tyre anyway but that would be of little help when looking for a replacement 650b in another country. Incidentally, a good reason for using Shimano parts is that they're by far the most easily available o/s, though even in Australia getting, say, a replacement rear derailleur can take some time if you can't take one off a nearby bike).

As I also wrote in my original post, I have a skeptical attitude to Jan Heine's blog, and sometimes I find him outright annoying, though I always find his posts more or less interesting. (I like to think I'm skeptical about all blogs and reviews, indeed about pretty much anything I read on the Internet.) My skepticism of Heine centres around the definite Compass Bikes bias in the BQ reviews; the subjectivity of the, to my mind, often spuriously "scientific" tests; the dependence on expensive, specialist/hard to get parts and the cult-like following—apparently oblivious to JH's commercial interests—that engenders; the self contradictions in his opinions; his sometimes surly responses to criticism; and, notwithstanding his writing about Japan, his US-centric view of the world (and cycling history). Some of the writing reads like a parody of a wine tasting, and some of his equipment choices/preferences remind me of people who race wooden yachts (not in itself a bad thing, but expensive). OTOH, I know I share some of the same faults & some of the same preferences! I'd love to have a light steel frame a la JH though I draw the line at rod-operated front derailleurs. And much of JH's writing is engaging, interesting, thoughtful, and well researched. I'm sure he'd be interesting to meet and talk with. Whether he'd enjoy talking to me …

Leaving that aside, the 700c 32mm Grand Bois Cypres I've ridden are definitely a comfy ride. More comfy and faster than 32mm or 35mm Vittoria Randonneur tyres, say, and no slower, probably faster, and more durable so far than Schwalbe One 28mm or Challenge Parigi-Roubaix 27mm. I'll have to ride them more to have a proper sense of how they compare to Vittoria Evo 25mm, though they feel slower on bitumen. They're definitely better on gravel and surprisingly durable on sharp rocks &c on fire roads. Based on their performance so far, I'd have little hesitation in giving the Compass 35mm or 38mm 700c tyres a go on gravel or coarse bitumen and can see they might be the go for Audax. At least for me. Even if my GB 32mm tyres are slower than Vittoria on smooth roads I reckon they're faster or as fast on rougher roads and definitely faster on gravel plus the increased comfort might see me riding for longer. Which pretty much accords with JH's opinions about wider 650b tyres. Hmmm.

ronHflyte: thanks for the article—i think I'd seen it before, but it was interesting to read again.

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Re: 650b: hype?

Postby robHflyte » Mon Dec 07, 2015 2:46 pm

lol, the rod shift thing is way out there on the fringe of weird.

I've seen a 650b rando here in Sydney on one of my Audax rides, went well over dirt for sure. I've seen another on a Newcastle Overnight ride. That's not many, granted. I'll have to live with having a stock of tyres for myself in case these stop being made for whatever reason.

unfortunately, I'll be one of those slow riders on a 650b, I'm a slow rider on 700C no matter what width. But will I be slower or overly inconvenienced by hard to get parts? 2 stores in Sydney get stock of GB or Compass occasionally, 1 I know of in Canberra.

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