Slippery road kit
- toolonglegs
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Slippery road kit
Postby toolonglegs » Tue Aug 20, 2013 4:10 pm
Cervelo say 30w saving running an S5 over standard roundish tubes... ok big part marketing, but if you add up slippery wheels, frame, helmet, skinsuit, position etc ... how much at a minimum do you think is gain-able?. After all a 30w improvement is huge and for someone like me, unachievable ( I would think ) with even the best training.
Be nice to add 30 watts on top of the best training program of course .
PS... I know my biggest slippyness gains would come from a thinner profile .
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Re: Slippery road kit
Postby ball bearing » Tue Aug 20, 2013 4:40 pm
This is my current strategy. I live on fruit smoothies, steamed veges and salads...and loving it. The other aero improvements are for the 0.1% of the riders where it will make a meaningful difference.toolonglegs wrote: PS... I know my biggest slippyness gains would come from a thinner profile .
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Re: Slippery road kit
Postby toolonglegs » Tue Aug 20, 2013 4:46 pm
If we say 30w saving for an example... for me personally that is 9% of my ftp, ok it is isn't linear especially when riding in a bunch, but for me personally doing 2-3 hour races it seems like a lot of energy to saved for when it matters.My thinking was it would make a pretty meaningful difference to everyone.ball bearing wrote:This is my current strategy. I live on fruit smoothies, steamed veges and salads...and loving it. The other aero improvements are for the 0.1% of the riders where it will make a meaningful difference.toolonglegs wrote: PS... I know my biggest slippyness gains would come from a thinner profile .
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Re: Slippery road kit
Postby ironhanglider » Tue Aug 20, 2013 5:16 pm
That's only if the 30W saving actually exists. I don't know the protocol they demonstrated this with, but it probably wasn't done by putting a rider on it in the middle of a bunch. I'm not going to accuse them of lying, but I wouldn't mind betting that this was the best result achieved in a controlled environment, and that the real world result would be much smaller. If the 30W was only measured on a riderless bike, then the turbulence from a rider is likely to reduce that effect. If it was only produced from a particular wind angle, then the effect would be reduced in variable conditions. If it was only attainable at speeds above 60km/h bearing in mind that resistance is a function of velocity squared (or cubed?), so the effect at 40km/h would be less again. You get the picture. It might be that the real world reduction is less than 1%.toolonglegs wrote:If we say 30w saving for an example... for me personally that is 9% of my ftp, ok it is isn't linear especially when riding in a bunch, but for me personally doing 2-3 hour races it seems like a lot of energy to saved for when it matters.My thinking was it would make a pretty meaningful difference to everyone.ball bearing wrote:This is my current strategy. I live on fruit smoothies, steamed veges and salads...and loving it. The other aero improvements are for the 0.1% of the riders where it will make a meaningful difference.toolonglegs wrote: PS... I know my biggest slippyness gains would come from a thinner profile .
A 1% saving is not worth additional expense to me and I would only consider it when replacing something that has broken. For you that won't be too far away anyway...
But hey spending money to improve performance has instant results.
I would expect that the lantern rouge from the tour would ride away from you on my dad's 1983 Colnago, and probably away from me on my sister's 1973 BSA shopper.
Cheers,
Cameron
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Re: Slippery road kit
Postby toolonglegs » Tue Aug 20, 2013 5:30 pm
Think of it this way... last year I spent nearly 600 hours in the saddle, so paying a little bit for bolt on gains seems reasonable .
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Re: Slippery road kit
Postby r11ss » Tue Aug 20, 2013 6:39 pm
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Re: Slippery road kit
Postby philip » Wed Aug 21, 2013 8:16 am
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Re: Slippery road kit
Postby Ross » Wed Aug 21, 2013 10:20 am
http://www.argonautcyclecoaching.com/?e=54" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;toolonglegs wrote:Road an FFC race last week... bit higher level than I usually race. A lot raced in skinsuits, aero helmets are now pretty common, quite a few aero bikes, of course everyone is on 50mm or higher rims.
Cervelo say 30w saving running an S5 over standard roundish tubes... ok big part marketing, but if you add up slippery wheels, frame, helmet, skinsuit, position etc ... how much at a minimum do you think is gain-able?. After all a 30w improvement is huge and for someone like me, unachievable ( I would think ) with even the best training.
Be nice to add 30 watts on top of the best training program of course .
PS... I know my biggest slippyness gains would come from a thinner profile .
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Re: Slippery road kit
Postby nailsaslegs » Wed Aug 21, 2013 10:32 am
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Re: Slippery road kit
Postby philip » Wed Aug 21, 2013 10:41 am
Ross wrote:http://www.argonautcyclecoaching.com/?e=54
Those figures aren't useful for this discussion, as has been said, riding a road race in a bunch is very different to TTing on a track.... who was a noted time trialist. The testing was done on a velodrome ...
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Re: Slippery road kit
Postby philip » Wed Aug 21, 2013 10:47 am
The talk of the peloton is about these ridiculous “aero” helmets they’re making us wear. I mean … seriously? .... We’re now on these absolutely ridiculous looking Giro helmets now and every iteration is getting worse and worse.
...
Riders will say in public that they benefit from “marginal gains” with their aerodynamics, but really nobody cares. If you have the legs, then you’ll win. Simple as that. No helmet is going to make a difference with all the other variables thrown in there.
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Re: Slippery road kit
Postby toolonglegs » Wed Aug 21, 2013 3:13 pm
My season is nearly over... But next year I will order a couple of skin suits and give it a go. Can only order team kit once a year... Pretty strict regs on what you can wear even in club races. If you turn up in pro kit, knicks for example can get you dq'ed. Plus Skin suits are standard kit for CX here when the weather allows it .
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Re: Slippery road kit
Postby ironhanglider » Wed Aug 21, 2013 9:33 pm
Come to think of it an aero helmet might work better for you than most. I expect your head is receiving undisturbed air even in the middle of the bunch.toolonglegs wrote:Even in a bunch I catch a hell of a lot of wind .
Cheers,
Cameron
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Re: Slippery road kit
Postby Xplora » Fri Aug 23, 2013 11:43 am
That said - anything to improve your power is worthwhile considering. Your legs aren't an issue for 300W FTP. It's the 310W that the guy in front is putting out that is the problem. If you can buy 5-10W from fancy gear, then you are now as fast as he is.
The key issue to me is that you have to get into the wind eventually, and you'll be in the wind at 40-50-60-70kmh where the aero penalty is quite high, rather than grinding out a casual 20-30. That moment is where your aero gains are worthwhile, and given that you're a big dude you want to make sure that you aren't holding yourself back. You wouldn't put a compact on the bike to intentionally restrict your top speed; why would you knowingly choose less aero clothing or wheels?
I doubt you've lost a lot of races in a sprint finish that you didn't bother using a higher gear on the cassette? If aero gear is the difference between you pushing a 12 and an 11 at the end of the race, I think you know the answer. IMO, that's the real difference. You will have another 10rpm or another gear you can push if you add up all the wattage savings over the race. That's more top speed when it matters, and if your strategy is good, you'll be able to get that extra 2 metres you lacked at the very end.
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Re: Slippery road kit
Postby vander » Fri Aug 23, 2013 2:04 pm
Saying that I am planning on gearing up for a few races in the next couple of months, and from my experiences so far (getting a new track bike with 50mm carbon tubulars) there certainly is a difference even in a bunch. Its different if its a big race that matters to you but for week in week out club races or training races I cant see why you would bother. Ofcourse there is always the prestigious strava sections to KOM..........
With respect to gearing in the sprint finishes, I hardly see a finish over 60km/h (even in A grade) for that all you need is a 53-13,14 (120RPM gets you around 60km/h) so most people will not be limited with their gearing in a sprint finish. A 50-11 (AT) 120RPM which is far from a massive cadence, will get you over 70km/h which will get you winning TdF sprints.
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Re: Slippery road kit
Postby Xplora » Fri Aug 23, 2013 2:23 pm
I'm an advocate of marginal gains if you're putting in 100% already. Cycling tends to demand 100% effort, so even if you're protecting yourself better while you are bludging, that's worthwhile. Isn't that the entire concept of the leadout? To sit out of the wind for an hour or two, then sprint 500m for the win? I struggle to find situations where you shouldn't just take the extra speed.
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Re: Slippery road kit
Postby vander » Fri Aug 23, 2013 3:15 pm
Tactics positioning will mean 100x as much as these marginal gains. You seem to think the strongest rider will win, no questions asked, that is not the case, there is so much more to it. As I said for A races its worthwhile, for races that are real priorities yes. For week in week out stuff come on, you arent racing for sheep stations.
I finished the race in the front group last race, was as much of a win for me as winning a race. No racing isnt all about results otherwise everyone would be burgling down in C or D grade. Races rarely go as you plan, or to your strengths it doesnt mean much. Yes I have given up on races before they start, I turn the alarm off and dont get up (only a few times but its happened), I didnt give up for any of the reasons your insinuating but again just a club race not worth it sometimes.
I dont know where this extra 5sec of all out power at the end is coming from but its not due to an aero helmet or skin suit and these 500m sprints now that would be strong. Get racing and you will learn a lot more about racing. If you have unlimited money go for it, but for me it would be better to spend the money going to an open race somewhere than to spend it on a set of wheels. You can get that 'extra speed boost' down the track where it may be more important to you, like I'll mention it again, for your 'A' race. Each to their own.
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Re: Slippery road kit
Postby toolonglegs » Fri Aug 23, 2013 3:49 pm
Anyway really just wondering aloud if it is really marginal or a little bit more than that at the end of the day... I spend 2 to 3 hours solid on the drops in a race just to get out of the wind, all the whippets in the world offer very little slipstream .
Here you go Vander, in Oz it's your standard 1 hour crit... here your bulk standard A grade race in my area http://app.strava.com/segments/5138022" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; , my race averaged 40,5 for 60km. The race after mine ( CAT 1,2,3 and Junior combined ) averaged 44,5 kmph for 130 kms. Basically an NRS level race every weekend, too many big amateur teams in the area, plus the UCI world cycling center juniors are based very close ... theres tactics for sure, but boy you have to be strong to use them!.
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Re: Slippery road kit
Postby Xplora » Fri Aug 23, 2013 4:03 pm
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Re: Slippery road kit
Postby zozza » Fri Aug 23, 2013 4:10 pm
vander wrote:You havent raced a whole lot have you?
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Re: Slippery road kit
Postby vander » Fri Aug 23, 2013 4:10 pm
@Xplora: You havent raced enough if you think using your brain is assumed, there is a lot of stupid races out there. I am not arguing that it might not have a small benefit but just saying its not worth it till you get to a higher level/more important races. In a bunch the aero gear @30km/h is going to have a completely different effect to @45+km/h.
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Re: Slippery road kit
Postby r11ss » Fri Aug 23, 2013 4:17 pm
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Re: Slippery road kit
Postby Xplora » Fri Aug 23, 2013 4:49 pm
Howso? (genuinely interested).vander wrote:In a bunch the aero gear @30km/h is going to have a completely different effect to @45+km/h.
I'm usually the turkey who shreds himself early for little reason, and I like to learn as much as I can!
zozza... hush you!
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Re: Slippery road kit
Postby toolonglegs » Fri Aug 23, 2013 4:58 pm
Anyway I have the wheels.
Federation rules say I must wear team kit for races, top and bottom. Club rules say I must wear the latest gear ( to keep sponsors happy ) ... so buying a couple of skin suits for next season is no skin off my nose.
A helmet ... well it won't break the bank.
Aero frame ... I haven't brought a new road bike since 2007 ( thanks Cannondale ) ... which also means I am still running 7800 DA , so maybe time for an upgrade.
Flexibility ... yeah well .
Anyway I only have a couple of races left before the season is over ... plenty of time to plan and scheme till last weekend of March 2014 !.
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Re: Slippery road kit
Postby foo on patrol » Fri Aug 23, 2013 8:13 pm
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