Titanium
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Titanium
Postby autumn acid » Fri Aug 30, 2013 10:22 am
I am looking into buying a new frame. I'm after something aesthetically pleasing, classic, and comfortable. Something that can be ridden hard/slow and in between.
At the moment I ride a carbon fibre set up (Merckx EMX-1).
I commute quite a bit (Sydney), but don't race. I go for longer rides on the weekend and enjoy a group ride. I'm not sure I will race in the future, but if I do, I don't think it will be a crit race.
I could go for a new carbon fibre frame (something stiffer and with a racier geometry), but not sure I'd appreciate it over our rough roads. There is also the steel option. I keep returning to Tommasini's page. Great looking bikes, but never ridden steel before (read they are very comfortable to ride on). Then there is titanium.
I've done a tonne of research, but the answer looks like it's going to be a leap of faith.
What are the overall impressions on titanium framed bikes? Heard they flex quite a bit, but this probably makes them easier on the body for commutes and longer rides. How much flex are we talking? Enough to make an uphill ride noticeably different/worse compared yo a cf stead?
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Re: Titanium
Postby RonK » Fri Aug 30, 2013 2:12 pm
They do absorb road vibrations very nicely, but they are not flexy.
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Re: Titanium
Postby autumn acid » Fri Aug 30, 2013 2:15 pm
How would you describe your riding style and have you ridden carbon before?
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Re: Titanium
Postby Duck! » Fri Aug 30, 2013 2:22 pm
I've only ridden one Ti frame, a Van Nicholas, and while a little bit flexier than a similar-profiled aluminium frame, it wasn't a noodle by any means. Vibration damping is quite amazing for a metallic frame (I don't think it's quite as good as carbon, but damn close). Overall, it's really nice stuff to ride.
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Re: Titanium
Postby RonK » Fri Aug 30, 2013 3:14 pm
Yes, my primary bike remains a carbon fibre roadie. It is very stiff and whilst it absorb road vibrations quite well it is not as good as the Ti bikes.autumn acid wrote:Thanks Ron.
How would you describe your riding style and have you ridden carbon before?
Both Ti bikes are tourers, and when actually on tour, carry a 20kg load without apparent flex.
Since they absorb most road vibrations they are very comfortable on long days in the saddle.
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Re: Titanium
Postby simonn » Fri Aug 30, 2013 4:24 pm
The carbon frame is ~0.5kg lighter, but the Van Nic are on the cheaper/heavier end of production Ti (not much in it though really) and the carbon frame is the 150g or so lighter S(uper)L(ight) model.
To be honest, as far as "ride quality" goes, the setup/fitting and tyre width/pressure play a massively bigger role. I suspect there would be as much difference between different Ti models and different carbon models than there will be for general ti vs carbon, IMHO.
I do however, barring a proper stack, expect to have my ti frame in 20 years time. And, because it has normal round tubes it is way easier to fit pumps and lights and stuff to it (which is a concern for audax).
Personally, I'm way more concerned about wheels . They have a bigger impact on performance.
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Re: Titanium
Postby gabrielle260 » Sat Aug 31, 2013 5:48 am
Thanks to a redundancy payout in 2006, I bought a Baum and never looked back. Since then I've also bought a Lynskey 29er which I have run as a single speed rigid MTB but is currently in the guise of a monster cross/ gravel grinder.
I found you can read everything you can find about the feel of Ti but I only really understood what people meant when I rode it myself.
One thing I can confidently say - I don't get anywhere as tired riding long kms on Ti as I do on my Alu frame. In fact I never realised how much tiredness in the final stages of a long ride was just due to road buzz/chatter!!
However - a big caveat - as others have said, Ti is just another frame material. You can get good and bad Ti frames and depending on the frame builder, very different ride qualities.
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Re: Titanium
Postby CXCommuter » Sat Aug 31, 2013 10:32 pm
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Re: Titanium
Postby queequeg » Sat Aug 31, 2013 11:35 pm
Their new Silver Series uses standard round tubing to keep costs down, so Ti may not be as expensive as you think.
I am pretty happy with my Cooper CX. It is great as a commuter, but terrible as a fast road bike. That is mostly because I have mudguards, rack, heavy rims and heavy tyres (740g each!). If I stripped it back to the "as purchased" setup, it would be about 3kg lighter and somewhat quicker. I don't mind because it was purchased as a bomb proof commuter bike, not as a racing bike. It is good training though because when I get in my road bike (a steel frame), it goes like a rocket!
I am looking at options for my next bike. I don't get to ride much on weekends anymore due to having young kids, so debating getting a 29er to do some of the local trails. Failing that, I'll go for a Ti road bike with an 11-speed setup. For now I have other priorities.
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Re: Titanium
Postby __PG__ » Mon Sep 02, 2013 3:42 pm
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Re: Titanium
Postby Comedian » Sun Sep 15, 2013 1:34 pm
I've got a Baum, and it's the stiffest and best climbing bike I've ever owned. I'm sure there are carbon bikes at least as stiff... but the Ti bike has this weird way of soaking up road buzz that's very neat.autumn acid wrote: What are the overall impressions on titanium framed bikes? Heard they flex quite a bit, but this probably makes them easier on the body for commutes and longer rides. How much flex are we talking? Enough to make an uphill ride noticeably different/worse compared yo a cf stead?
My near new carbon Scott CR1 is forever now uncomfortable and slow.
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Re: Titanium
Postby jacks1071 » Tue Sep 17, 2013 12:02 am
Which is EXACTLY why you can not predict ride quality based on the frame material. There is so many more variables than the material the frame is made out of.__PG__ wrote:I've ridden a Lynskey touring frame, a Moots CR and a Baum Corretto. They all felt very different.
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Re: Titanium
Postby NeillS » Thu Sep 19, 2013 8:53 pm
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Re: Titanium
Postby matt1986 » Sun Sep 22, 2013 3:05 pm
In my mind this basically confirms what others have said, it's not so much the material as the way it's manipulated by the builder.
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Re: Titanium
Postby Crawf » Thu Sep 26, 2013 10:08 am
New Baum and no pics?Comedian wrote: I've got a Baum, and it's the stiffest and best climbing bike I've ever owned. I'm sure there are carbon bikes at least as stiff... but the Ti bike has this weird way of soaking up road buzz that's very neat.
My near new carbon Scott CR1 is forever now uncomfortable and slow.
Disgraceful.
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Re: Titanium
Postby scirocco » Mon Sep 30, 2013 11:48 am
If buying Ti, avoid the temptation to go cheap. Cheap means straight wall tubes which have not been worked (butted) to increase strength. In the grades and sizes of Ti used for bike tubing this usually means not very stiff, specially if areas like the bottom bracket and head tube have not been oversized as well to increase stiffness.
Spend a bit more, buy a frame with double- or triple butted tubing and some tube shaping in the BB and head tube areas and you should get a very nice riding, handling and stiff frame.
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Re: Titanium
Postby jasonc » Mon Sep 30, 2013 12:59 pm
and scratchedComedian wrote:My near new carbon Scott CR1 is forever now uncomfortable and slow.
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Re: Titanium
Postby jacks1071 » Wed Oct 02, 2013 2:11 pm
I thought the different wall thicknesses in the tubing was to reduce weight rather than to increase stiffness.scirocco wrote:I used to own a Serotta Fierte (the full Ti version). This is (was) the bottom-of-the range Serotta. Lovely ride quality, but not what you would call stiff. I'm a lightweight and I could flex the frame without really trying.
If buying Ti, avoid the temptation to go cheap. Cheap means straight wall tubes which have not been worked (butted) to increase strength. In the grades and sizes of Ti used for bike tubing this usually means not very stiff, specially if areas like the bottom bracket and head tube have not been oversized as well to increase stiffness.
Spend a bit more, buy a frame with double- or triple butted tubing and some tube shaping in the BB and head tube areas and you should get a very nice riding, handling and stiff frame.
The cheaper models are going to be the "thicker" tubing all the way through ie. heavier for no good reason but I can't see how this would reduce stiffness. If you are talking tubing profiles other than round, then different story of course..
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Re: Titanium
Postby trek52 » Fri Oct 04, 2013 2:14 pm
Sure it is nice to look at and it seems cool to say I ride a Baum but in the real world as a race bike they are not in the same league as a 2013 model top end carbon frame. New carbon is stiff, comfortable, light and doesnt wear out. Try one......
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Re: Titanium
Postby biker jk » Fri Oct 04, 2013 3:02 pm
I had a carbon frame and sold it because my titanium frame is better in every way. Check out the stiffness tests in Ride magazine and you'll be surprised how often the titanium bikes reviewed are stiffer where bikes need to be. While carbon frames don't wear out they crack all too frequently.trek52 wrote:People who think titanium is the idea material to build a bike with have never ridden good carbon imo.
Sure it is nice to look at and it seems cool to say I ride a Baum but in the real world as a race bike they are not in the same league as a 2013 model top end carbon frame. New carbon is stiff, comfortable, light and doesnt wear out. Try one......
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Re: Titanium
Postby RonK » Fri Oct 04, 2013 3:22 pm
I own both, and ride them regularly. I like both. But I definitely prefer the titanium.trek52 wrote:People who think titanium is the idea material to build a bike with have never ridden good carbon imo.
Have you fully experienced bikes made of both types of materials?
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Re: Titanium
Postby Comedian » Fri Oct 04, 2013 5:35 pm
I suspect it's you who haven't ridden a really good ti bike...mine is very stiff and fast like top end carbon I've ridden. The difference is its comfy, and lasts a long time.trek52 wrote:People who think titanium is the idea material to build a bike with have never ridden good carbon imo.
Sure it is nice to look at and it seems cool to say I ride a Baum but in the real world as a race bike they are not in the same league as a 2013 model top end carbon frame. New carbon is stiff, comfortable, light and doesnt wear out. Try one......
I've come to realise that ti really is an excellent material to build bikes out of. IMHO the cost of it could be largely sorted by volume - but the bicycle industry doesn't like it as they really want you to stay on the three year upgrade cycle.
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Re: Titanium
Postby marinmomma » Sat Oct 05, 2013 3:29 pm
And doesn't do all that well when involved in some form of impact...trek52 wrote:People who think titanium is the idea material to build a bike with have never ridden good carbon imo.
Sure it is nice to look at and it seems cool to say I ride a Baum but in the real world as a race bike they are not in the same league as a 2013 model top end carbon frame. New carbon is stiff, comfortable, light and doesnt wear out. Try one......
If you are getting into racing I reckon Ti is the way to go
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Re: Titanium
Postby scirocco » Sat Oct 05, 2013 10:55 pm
I suspect that what happens is that they don't just pick tubing that is really thick and strong. Cost is everything with Ti, and to keep the cost down on the low end versions, they deliberately select a size down (in diameter and thickness) from the higher spec models. This is not quite thick enough to be really stiff where it needs to be, and it's not quite thin enough to save weight where you can get away with less stiffness. Kind of the worst of both worlds. But good enough to market as "the fantastic ride of titanium". (And it is).jacks1071 wrote:I thought the different wall thicknesses in the tubing was to reduce weight rather than to increase stiffness.scirocco wrote:I used to own a Serotta Fierte (the full Ti version). This is (was) the bottom-of-the range Serotta. Lovely ride quality, but not what you would call stiff. I'm a lightweight and I could flex the frame without really trying.
If buying Ti, avoid the temptation to go cheap. Cheap means straight wall tubes which have not been worked (butted) to increase strength. In the grades and sizes of Ti used for bike tubing this usually means not very stiff, specially if areas like the bottom bracket and head tube have not been oversized as well to increase stiffness.
Spend a bit more, buy a frame with double- or triple butted tubing and some tube shaping in the BB and head tube areas and you should get a very nice riding, handling and stiff frame.
The cheaper models are going to be the "thicker" tubing all the way through ie. heavier for no good reason but I can't see how this would reduce stiffness. If you are talking tubing profiles other than round, then different story of course..
To be fair, this may not be all that big an effect. Probably you get more stiffness from oversized bottom brackets and head tubes. And you don't get those on "budget" Ti, again, because that costs more than just welding straight gauge tubes together.
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Re: Titanium
Postby barefoot » Mon Oct 07, 2013 9:42 am
People who think carbon is the ideal material to build a bike with have never ridden a frame that's custom designed to fit their geometrytrek52 wrote:People who think titanium is the idea material to build a bike with have never ridden good carbon imo.
Granted, many people (the middle of the bell curve) will fit comfortably on an off-the-hook frame. These people have the run of the place, and can choose whatever frame material they want.
The rest of us - the tails of the bell curve - don't fit frames designed for the masses. If I was to get a carbon frame made to fit me, the mould tooling would cost an order of magnitude more than my (cheap Chinese) custom Ti frame did.
The best bike frame is one that's comfortable and handles well... in whatever material that happens to be made in.
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