The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby London Boy » Thu Aug 29, 2013 10:14 pm

Summernight wrote:Is citing case names the same as name calling or a 'see-how-far-I-can-pee' contest? Somehow the above feels like it. :wink:

In a discussion about the law, citing cases is probably a sensible thing to do. That said, Manley v Alexander is not really on point when we're talking about contributory negligence. It was not in dispute once the appellant driver's negligence had been established in the WA Court of Appeal.
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby citywomble » Thu Aug 29, 2013 10:15 pm

Zero said:

Its not even black and white for a pedestrian, because they aren't allowed to step into a vehicles path either, and the giveway rule specifically applies to pedestrians on paths, not pedestrians wanting to step onto paths.


Wrong! In WA at least. The RTC 2000 states that a cyclist on a shared path has to give way to any pedestrian on or crossing a shared path which would also include anyone entering the path (same as for a pedestrian crossing where the moment a pedestrian enters vehicles have to give way).

Also, the primary cause, without which Eldavo would not have risked colliding with the fixie, was that he was crossing the road as a vehicle. He is, therefore, under an absolute obligation to give way to any user (cyclist or pedestrian) when leaving the road to enter or cross a path.

Finally, in WA many cyclists treat footpaths as de facto shared paths. The actual wording of the RTC 2000 (WA) then means that all paths are able to be considered as unmarked shared paths. This is reinforced by the fact that many actual formal shared paths, shown on bike maps, are unmarked and that most signage that is in place is unlawful.

If a collision had occurred, and the law was actually understood and applied, Eldavo would have been responsible for causing the accident and the actions or otherwise of the other rider would only have been contributory in mitigation.
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby Summernight » Fri Aug 30, 2013 10:14 am

Dumb pedestrians: To all of the pedestrians that keep walking across the intersection at Swanston Street/Collins Street when the light has turned red and ignore the 'do not walk' signal. And yet you continue to walk (most of you actually saunter). The reason the light sequence has been lengthened so that there is a 5 second gap between the red light on Swanston St and the green on Collins is because of you. Light goes red = STOP WALKING. Just because the Collins St light hasn't gone green doesn't mean you slow down and then decide to keep walking anyway.

I don't mind if you run as the light turns amber, but please stop being sheep and walking on the red.

*sigh*

Rant over.
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby jasonc » Fri Aug 30, 2013 10:18 am

Summernight wrote:Dumb pedestrians: To all of the pedestrians that keep walking across the intersection at Swanston Street/Collins Street when the light has turned red and ignore the 'do not walk' signal. And yet you continue to walk (most of you actually saunter). The reason the light sequence has been lengthened so that there is a 5 second gap between the red light on Swanston St and the green on Collins is because of you. Light goes red = STOP WALKING. Just because the Collins St light hasn't gone green doesn't mean you slow down and then decide to keep walking anyway.

I don't mind if you run as the light turns amber, but please stop being sheep and walking on the red.

*sigh*

Rant over.


An airzound is made for EXACTLY this situation. scare the bejesus out of a few of them. word will get around
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby zero » Fri Aug 30, 2013 10:20 am

twizzle wrote:
zero wrote:Its not even black and white for a pedestrian, because they aren't allowed to step into a vehicles path either, and the giveway rule specifically applies to pedestrians on paths, not pedestrians wanting to step onto paths.

ARR 250.2.b. Then try and prove the pedestrian walked into your path and was 100% liable for the collision - when you have no brakes.


Even my imagination doesn't stretch so far as to equate "not black and white" with 100% liable.
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby Undertow » Fri Aug 30, 2013 10:47 am

citywomble wrote:Wrong! In WA at least. The RTC 2000 states that a cyclist on a shared path has to give way to any pedestrian on or crossing a shared path which would also include anyone entering the path (same as for a pedestrian crossing where the moment a pedestrian enters vehicles have to give way).


201. Pedestrians not to cause obstruction
(1) A person shall not unreasonably obstruct or prevent the free
passage of any other pedestrian or a vehicle upon a path or
carriageway.
Modified penalty: 2 PU.

I'd say entering a path without giving way would constitute a pedestrian unreasonably obstructing a bike that is already on the path. Sure the universal don't hit anyone road rule still applies to the cyclist if a ped does enter without giving way, but the ped is still at fault.
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby Mulger bill » Fri Aug 30, 2013 1:06 pm

jasonc wrote:
Summernight wrote:Dumb pedestrians: To all of the pedestrians that keep walking across the intersection at Swanston Street/Collins Street when the light has turned red and ignore the 'do not walk' signal. And yet you continue to walk (most of you actually saunter). The reason the light sequence has been lengthened so that there is a 5 second gap between the red light on Swanston St and the green on Collins is because of you. Light goes red = STOP WALKING. Just because the Collins St light hasn't gone green doesn't mean you slow down and then decide to keep walking anyway.

I don't mind if you run as the light turns amber, but please stop being sheep and walking on the red.

*sigh*

Rant over.


An airzound is made for EXACTLY this situation. scare the bejesus out of a few of them. word will get around


I find my Acme Siren whistle works well too. :twisted:

Summer, I'd advise against riding Spencer northbound at the Little Collins intersection. More'n once I've had to come to a tyre shredding stop at the end of the tram stop only to have them waiting on the side note this and proceed to step out. The genius who thought removing the ped underpass exits from Sudden Crass Station was a good idea need flogging with a ruined tyre :roll:

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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby Summernight » Fri Aug 30, 2013 2:52 pm

Mulger bill wrote:I find my Acme Siren whistle works well too. :twisted:

Summer, I'd advise against riding Spencer northbound at the Little Collins intersection. More'n once I've had to come to a tyre shredding stop at the end of the tram stop only to have them waiting on the side note this and proceed to step out. The genius who thought removing the ped underpass exits from Sudden Crass Station was a good idea need flogging with a ruined tyre :roll:


That intersection is not in my home direction at this current point in time but your warning is noted. I think any of the Melbourne CBD streets with 'Little' in their names need to be watched for due to peds stepping out willy nilly without looking.

The problem has been made worse on Swanston/Collins, IMO, because of the tram super stops - they give this extra 'island' for the peds and then the further one lane of traffic distance between them and their must-get-to-or-die other side of the intersection seems surmountable. If you have two or more lanes of traffic to get across you're going to think twice about crossing all of the lanes as opposed to one which looks like you can jump over.

What makes me shake my head at the sheeples is when they keep walking, totally focussed on their destination with absolutely no turning of their heads to actually look around them or notice that they may be stepping into an injury.
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby Tomca74 » Fri Aug 30, 2013 8:43 pm

Image

not a lot wrong with this picture really
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby Mulger bill » Fri Aug 30, 2013 8:56 pm

Hmmm. Rider skitching, driver taking a photo on the move.

Maybe this belongs in both threads... :?
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby jasonc » Fri Aug 30, 2013 8:58 pm

Tomca74 wrote:Image

not a lot wrong with this picture really


turbot st, brisbane
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby Tomca74 » Fri Aug 30, 2013 9:06 pm

Mulger bill wrote:Hmmm. Rider skitching, driver taking a photo on the move.

Maybe this belongs in both threads... :?


I'm innocent. Dashcam still.
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby g-boaf » Sun Sep 01, 2013 2:25 pm

4 man peloton on the Greystanes canal track this morning going east at around 35km/h average speed, even between groups of pedestrians going opposite directions. The group turned off at Woodpark Road.

I had slowed down to get around a group of pedestrians (with one lot oncoming) and this group of clowns just blasted through the narrow gap. :x I'm okay with you lot going fast, but do it when the conditions allow. It won't hurt you to slow down a little bit. Never mind the riding two-abreast in the left lane which is very risky on a shared path.

All it would take is one of those pedestrians they were passing at speed to panic and the four of them would have been in the mother of all crashes. :roll: And given the speed they were going at, it would have been a big crash too.
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby Mulger bill » Sun Sep 01, 2013 6:38 pm

Tomca74 wrote:
Mulger bill wrote:Hmmm. Rider skitching, driver taking a photo on the move.

Maybe this belongs in both threads... :?


I'm innocent. Dashcam still.


Thanks for the follow up, apology issued :oops:
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby CW83 » Sun Sep 01, 2013 7:01 pm

Thirty years ago the NSW instruction booklet for learner drivers included the following statement: "Right of way cannot be taken, only given."

This remarkable piece of philosophy from the otherwise blighted NSW traffic authority remains the best piece of driving advice—indeed, advice of any sort—I've ever read.

FWIW, here're some guidelines in a similar spirit I try to follow when walking, riding, or driving. I recognise they may sometimes be in tension with each other. However, when I'm able to follow them they help me be safer and to feel better about myself and others. I don't expect everyone to agree with them.

Where it's possible and safe to do so, and within reasonable limits:
1. Larger/faster/'stronger'/more mobile cares for and/or gives way to smaller/slower/'weaker'/less mobile.
2. Try to assist the other person—pedestrian, rider, driver—to do what they want to do; do not expect them to recognise you are trying to help, or have helped, them.
3. Obey, and be seen to obey, the law.
4. Act as tho' you believe others are following the same guidelines (1-3 above).
5. If your life is endangered ignore any or all of the above.

Thus:
a) Able bodied adults pedestrians care for and where possible give way to the disabled and children; bike riders care for and where possible give way to pedestrians; car drivers care for and where possible give way to bikes; truck drivers care for and where possible give way to car drivers (note that trucks are bigger, faster, and stronger, *and* less mobile than bikes). Cyclists give way to pedestrians, even if they do stupid, illegal, and annoying things (like walking three abreast on bike trails, or walking thru' red lights; ditto for drivers re bikes.
b) Pedestrians, riders, and drivers do not need to bloody-mindedly assert their rights to being first across intersections, being on the correct path &c, where it's possible for them to easily assist an other. For instance, pausing momentarily to allow, say, stressed 'professional' truck drivers to make manoeuvres that may reduce their stress.
c) Pedestrians, riders, drivers should all, where possible, obey traffic signals and road rules. For instance, stop at pedestrian lights.
d) Imagine the best of others: they may be ignorant, negligent, uncoordinated, and/or stupid, but most people are not consciously malicious.
e) If someone tries to run you down do what ever's necessary to protect yourself. Note that this does not necessarily mean that you be aggressive or loud.

These guidelines are, of course, mostly aspirational.

Cheers.
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby bychosis » Sun Sep 01, 2013 9:59 pm

I wasn't sure this quite this fits here, but believe its worth a discussion, this cyclist made a choice I'm not sure all of us would. The clip came from a dashcam in a work vehicle I was driving, please have a look, then see further comments below.



The cyclist was at the stop line of the lights when I pulled up, but can't e seen in the clip. I got to about 45km/h in the traffic flow then slowed to give the rider space down to about 25km/h (dashcam recorded speeds). I know the rider had no idea a bike aware driver was behind nor exactly what the bus was going to do. I wasn't riding but think I would have tried to take the lane a bit earlier and hold it until past the bus.

Edit: Camera lens makes the rider look a lot further away from the car when he turned away. Looks like a short bus too, but it wasn't
Last edited by bychosis on Mon Sep 02, 2013 6:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby DavidS » Sun Sep 01, 2013 11:21 pm

Yeah I would have tried to take the lane, and I would give a hand signal to do so. However, I do understand why they chose the footpath. That said, I have taken the lane in these situations many times and have not had any trouble, you go out in the lane for a few metres and then back into the lane on the side when safe to do so.

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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby jasonc » Mon Sep 02, 2013 7:14 am

DavidS wrote:Yeah I would have tried to take the lane, and I would give a hand signal to do so. However, I do understand why they chose the footpath. That said, I have taken the lane in these situations many times and have not had any trouble, you go out in the lane for a few metres and then back into the lane on the side when safe to do so.

DS


+1

I though the option he took, with a bus stopped there, would be one of the more dangerous in that situation (i.e. person gets off the bus and you hit them). I would have done the same as David (with a wave of thanks to the driver, of course).
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby kirky92au » Mon Sep 02, 2013 10:26 am

bychosis wrote:I wasn't sure this quite this fits here, but believe its worth a discussion, this cyclist made a choice I'm not sure all of us would. The clip came from a dashcam in a work vehicle I was driving, please have a look, then see further comments below.



I actually know that road and have ridden it a few times, I think he should of taken the lane back at the set of lights you first go through or merged into the lane if he came on from the left. That road is often pretty congested so riding in traffic really isn't to bad as everyone is doing about the same speed. There is a bike lane a bit further up the road however cars often park over it and its designed in a such a way that your going to get doored, so I've stayed in the lane until I'm essentially through the built up area.
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby Scarfy96 » Mon Sep 02, 2013 11:38 am

Hard call that one, bus indicating it wants to pull out, is likely to pull into any gap it sees, bike pulls out and bus sees gap to car and it all gets ugly.

At 30s in that video you can clearly see that the bus in indicating it wants to pull out and so my understanding is that you should have slowed and given way to the bus (as should the cyclist)

77 Giving way to buses

(1) A driver driving on a length of road in a built-up area, in the left lane or left line of traffic, or in a bicycle lane on the far left side of the road, must give way to a bus in front of the driver if:
(a) the bus has stopped, or is moving slowly, at the far left side of the road, on a shoulder of the road, or in a bus-stop bay, and
(b) the bus displays a give way to buses sign and the right direction indicator lights of the bus are operating, and
(c) the bus is about to enter or proceed in the lane or line of traffic in which the driver is driving.
Maximum penalty: 20 penalty units.

Note 1. Built-up area, bus and length of road are defined in the Dictionary, left lane and left line of traffic are defined in subrule (2), and shoulder is defined in rule 12.
Note 2. For this rule, give way means the driver must slow down and, if necessary, stop to avoid a collision—see the definition in the Dictionary.
Note 3. The driver of the bus must give the change of direction signal for long enough to give sufficient warning to other drivers and pedestrians—see rule 48 (2) and (3).
Note 4. Under rule 87 (1), a driver entering a marked lane, or a line of traffic, from the side of the road must give way to any vehicle travelling in the lane or line of traffic. However, the driver of a public bus does not have to give way to a vehicle if the vehicle is required to give way to the bus under this rule and it is safe for the bus to enter the lane, or line of traffic, in which the other vehicle is travelling—see rule 87 (2).


So actually the correct thing for the cyclist to do (but ballsy) would have been to pull into the lane, indicate he was stopping by putting his hand up and slowing down enough to give the bus right of way to come out and then slid back to the left behind him. My understanding of the rules is that that video is clear evidence of you breaking the law by not giving way to the bus and continuing past it as it was indicating it's intention to pull out.
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby human909 » Mon Sep 02, 2013 11:42 am

It doesn't seem to me that "(c) the bus is about to enter or proceed in the lane or line of traffic in which the driver is driving".
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby apsilon » Mon Sep 02, 2013 11:59 am

Scarfy96 wrote:My understanding of the rules is that that video is clear evidence of you breaking the law by not giving way to the bus and continuing past it as it was indicating it's intention to pull out.


Note 3 of the info you posted would apply here. From the time the bus indicated to the time bychosis was alongside it was less then 3 seconds and that was because he was slowing for the cyclist. If he'd continued at a steady speed or continued to accelerate (assuming it's at least a 50km/h zone) it would've been more like 1.5 seconds at best which isn't enough time to safely give way.
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby Scarfy96 » Mon Sep 02, 2013 12:06 pm

Bit hard to say from the video with the sun glare exactly how long the indicator was on. There is definitely a right hand blinker indicating the bus is intending to pull out. So right hand blinker on is it "about to" - I wouldn't like to try and say it wasn't in a court of law. One of those crazy laws where you are supposed to know what the other drivers intention is. My understanding is because their right hand blinker is on they have made their intention to pull out clear so they are now "about to" but yes the time it has been on is an issue.

Either way if a bike pulled out there to take the lane I suspect it had the potential to go ugly really fast if the bus saw that as a gap!
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby bychosis » Mon Sep 02, 2013 12:12 pm

human909 wrote:It doesn't seem to me that "(c) the bus is about to enter or proceed in the lane or line of traffic in which the driver is driving".


As the driver, the bus didn't indicate soon enough for me to safely give way, except that I had slowed significantly for the cyclist to pass the bus. The rider had gone left, then I started accelerating before the indicator on the bus went on.

Edit: Re-viewed the original footage. The indicator went on 3sec before (30s in the clip) I reached the back of the bus (32s). The brake lights light up just before the indicators came on, so look a bit like indicators initially in the youtube clip.
Last edited by bychosis on Mon Sep 02, 2013 12:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby Scarfy96 » Mon Sep 02, 2013 12:24 pm

Fair enough but that still makes it very very iffy for the cyclist to do the quick whip out and past.

Depending on the timing as a cyclist from past experience there (and I too have ridden that road plenty of times from Glendale to Edgeworth) I would have either:
a) Taken the lane and given the car behind me a wave of thanks and nervously watched the bus for any sign it was about to run over me or
b) If time, pulled in behind the bus, slowed down and let it go and stayed left.

Not being there to know the exact timing and spacing of everything it is hard to say if I would have done a) or b).

I would NOT have done what that cyclist did but having had buses pull out on me a few times when I start passing them and no indicator and when I am past their rear I see the front indicator go on as the bus just instantly starts to pull out has made me VERY nervous of that situation!
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