The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby g-boaf » Sun Sep 01, 2013 2:25 pm

4 man peloton on the Greystanes canal track this morning going east at around 35km/h average speed, even between groups of pedestrians going opposite directions. The group turned off at Woodpark Road.

I had slowed down to get around a group of pedestrians (with one lot oncoming) and this group of clowns just blasted through the narrow gap. :x I'm okay with you lot going fast, but do it when the conditions allow. It won't hurt you to slow down a little bit. Never mind the riding two-abreast in the left lane which is very risky on a shared path.

All it would take is one of those pedestrians they were passing at speed to panic and the four of them would have been in the mother of all crashes. :roll: And given the speed they were going at, it would have been a big crash too.
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by BNA » Sun Sep 01, 2013 6:38 pm

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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby Mulger bill » Sun Sep 01, 2013 6:38 pm

Tomca74 wrote:
Mulger bill wrote:Hmmm. Rider skitching, driver taking a photo on the move.

Maybe this belongs in both threads... :?


I'm innocent. Dashcam still.


Thanks for the follow up, apology issued :oops:
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby CW83 » Sun Sep 01, 2013 7:01 pm

Thirty years ago the NSW instruction booklet for learner drivers included the following statement: "Right of way cannot be taken, only given."

This remarkable piece of philosophy from the otherwise blighted NSW traffic authority remains the best piece of driving advice—indeed, advice of any sort—I've ever read.

FWIW, here're some guidelines in a similar spirit I try to follow when walking, riding, or driving. I recognise they may sometimes be in tension with each other. However, when I'm able to follow them they help me be safer and to feel better about myself and others. I don't expect everyone to agree with them.

Where it's possible and safe to do so, and within reasonable limits:
1. Larger/faster/'stronger'/more mobile cares for and/or gives way to smaller/slower/'weaker'/less mobile.
2. Try to assist the other person—pedestrian, rider, driver—to do what they want to do; do not expect them to recognise you are trying to help, or have helped, them.
3. Obey, and be seen to obey, the law.
4. Act as tho' you believe others are following the same guidelines (1-3 above).
5. If your life is endangered ignore any or all of the above.

Thus:
a) Able bodied adults pedestrians care for and where possible give way to the disabled and children; bike riders care for and where possible give way to pedestrians; car drivers care for and where possible give way to bikes; truck drivers care for and where possible give way to car drivers (note that trucks are bigger, faster, and stronger, *and* less mobile than bikes). Cyclists give way to pedestrians, even if they do stupid, illegal, and annoying things (like walking three abreast on bike trails, or walking thru' red lights; ditto for drivers re bikes.
b) Pedestrians, riders, and drivers do not need to bloody-mindedly assert their rights to being first across intersections, being on the correct path &c, where it's possible for them to easily assist an other. For instance, pausing momentarily to allow, say, stressed 'professional' truck drivers to make manoeuvres that may reduce their stress.
c) Pedestrians, riders, drivers should all, where possible, obey traffic signals and road rules. For instance, stop at pedestrian lights.
d) Imagine the best of others: they may be ignorant, negligent, uncoordinated, and/or stupid, but most people are not consciously malicious.
e) If someone tries to run you down do what ever's necessary to protect yourself. Note that this does not necessarily mean that you be aggressive or loud.

These guidelines are, of course, mostly aspirational.

Cheers.
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby bychosis » Sun Sep 01, 2013 9:59 pm

I wasn't sure this quite this fits here, but believe its worth a discussion, this cyclist made a choice I'm not sure all of us would. The clip came from a dashcam in a work vehicle I was driving, please have a look, then see further comments below.



The cyclist was at the stop line of the lights when I pulled up, but can't e seen in the clip. I got to about 45km/h in the traffic flow then slowed to give the rider space down to about 25km/h (dashcam recorded speeds). I know the rider had no idea a bike aware driver was behind nor exactly what the bus was going to do. I wasn't riding but think I would have tried to take the lane a bit earlier and hold it until past the bus.

Edit: Camera lens makes the rider look a lot further away from the car when he turned away. Looks like a short bus too, but it wasn't
Last edited by bychosis on Mon Sep 02, 2013 6:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby DavidS » Sun Sep 01, 2013 11:21 pm

Yeah I would have tried to take the lane, and I would give a hand signal to do so. However, I do understand why they chose the footpath. That said, I have taken the lane in these situations many times and have not had any trouble, you go out in the lane for a few metres and then back into the lane on the side when safe to do so.

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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby jasonc » Mon Sep 02, 2013 7:14 am

DavidS wrote:Yeah I would have tried to take the lane, and I would give a hand signal to do so. However, I do understand why they chose the footpath. That said, I have taken the lane in these situations many times and have not had any trouble, you go out in the lane for a few metres and then back into the lane on the side when safe to do so.

DS


+1

I though the option he took, with a bus stopped there, would be one of the more dangerous in that situation (i.e. person gets off the bus and you hit them). I would have done the same as David (with a wave of thanks to the driver, of course).
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby kirky92au » Mon Sep 02, 2013 10:26 am

bychosis wrote:I wasn't sure this quite this fits here, but believe its worth a discussion, this cyclist made a choice I'm not sure all of us would. The clip came from a dashcam in a work vehicle I was driving, please have a look, then see further comments below.



I actually know that road and have ridden it a few times, I think he should of taken the lane back at the set of lights you first go through or merged into the lane if he came on from the left. That road is often pretty congested so riding in traffic really isn't to bad as everyone is doing about the same speed. There is a bike lane a bit further up the road however cars often park over it and its designed in a such a way that your going to get doored, so I've stayed in the lane until I'm essentially through the built up area.
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby Scarfy96 » Mon Sep 02, 2013 11:38 am

Hard call that one, bus indicating it wants to pull out, is likely to pull into any gap it sees, bike pulls out and bus sees gap to car and it all gets ugly.

At 30s in that video you can clearly see that the bus in indicating it wants to pull out and so my understanding is that you should have slowed and given way to the bus (as should the cyclist)

77 Giving way to buses

(1) A driver driving on a length of road in a built-up area, in the left lane or left line of traffic, or in a bicycle lane on the far left side of the road, must give way to a bus in front of the driver if:
(a) the bus has stopped, or is moving slowly, at the far left side of the road, on a shoulder of the road, or in a bus-stop bay, and
(b) the bus displays a give way to buses sign and the right direction indicator lights of the bus are operating, and
(c) the bus is about to enter or proceed in the lane or line of traffic in which the driver is driving.
Maximum penalty: 20 penalty units.

Note 1. Built-up area, bus and length of road are defined in the Dictionary, left lane and left line of traffic are defined in subrule (2), and shoulder is defined in rule 12.
Note 2. For this rule, give way means the driver must slow down and, if necessary, stop to avoid a collision—see the definition in the Dictionary.
Note 3. The driver of the bus must give the change of direction signal for long enough to give sufficient warning to other drivers and pedestrians—see rule 48 (2) and (3).
Note 4. Under rule 87 (1), a driver entering a marked lane, or a line of traffic, from the side of the road must give way to any vehicle travelling in the lane or line of traffic. However, the driver of a public bus does not have to give way to a vehicle if the vehicle is required to give way to the bus under this rule and it is safe for the bus to enter the lane, or line of traffic, in which the other vehicle is travelling—see rule 87 (2).


So actually the correct thing for the cyclist to do (but ballsy) would have been to pull into the lane, indicate he was stopping by putting his hand up and slowing down enough to give the bus right of way to come out and then slid back to the left behind him. My understanding of the rules is that that video is clear evidence of you breaking the law by not giving way to the bus and continuing past it as it was indicating it's intention to pull out.
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby human909 » Mon Sep 02, 2013 11:42 am

It doesn't seem to me that "(c) the bus is about to enter or proceed in the lane or line of traffic in which the driver is driving".
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby apsilon » Mon Sep 02, 2013 11:59 am

Scarfy96 wrote:My understanding of the rules is that that video is clear evidence of you breaking the law by not giving way to the bus and continuing past it as it was indicating it's intention to pull out.


Note 3 of the info you posted would apply here. From the time the bus indicated to the time bychosis was alongside it was less then 3 seconds and that was because he was slowing for the cyclist. If he'd continued at a steady speed or continued to accelerate (assuming it's at least a 50km/h zone) it would've been more like 1.5 seconds at best which isn't enough time to safely give way.
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby Scarfy96 » Mon Sep 02, 2013 12:06 pm

Bit hard to say from the video with the sun glare exactly how long the indicator was on. There is definitely a right hand blinker indicating the bus is intending to pull out. So right hand blinker on is it "about to" - I wouldn't like to try and say it wasn't in a court of law. One of those crazy laws where you are supposed to know what the other drivers intention is. My understanding is because their right hand blinker is on they have made their intention to pull out clear so they are now "about to" but yes the time it has been on is an issue.

Either way if a bike pulled out there to take the lane I suspect it had the potential to go ugly really fast if the bus saw that as a gap!
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby bychosis » Mon Sep 02, 2013 12:12 pm

human909 wrote:It doesn't seem to me that "(c) the bus is about to enter or proceed in the lane or line of traffic in which the driver is driving".


As the driver, the bus didn't indicate soon enough for me to safely give way, except that I had slowed significantly for the cyclist to pass the bus. The rider had gone left, then I started accelerating before the indicator on the bus went on.

Edit: Re-viewed the original footage. The indicator went on 3sec before (30s in the clip) I reached the back of the bus (32s). The brake lights light up just before the indicators came on, so look a bit like indicators initially in the youtube clip.
Last edited by bychosis on Mon Sep 02, 2013 12:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby Scarfy96 » Mon Sep 02, 2013 12:24 pm

Fair enough but that still makes it very very iffy for the cyclist to do the quick whip out and past.

Depending on the timing as a cyclist from past experience there (and I too have ridden that road plenty of times from Glendale to Edgeworth) I would have either:
a) Taken the lane and given the car behind me a wave of thanks and nervously watched the bus for any sign it was about to run over me or
b) If time, pulled in behind the bus, slowed down and let it go and stayed left.

Not being there to know the exact timing and spacing of everything it is hard to say if I would have done a) or b).

I would NOT have done what that cyclist did but having had buses pull out on me a few times when I start passing them and no indicator and when I am past their rear I see the front indicator go on as the bus just instantly starts to pull out has made me VERY nervous of that situation!
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby cp123 » Mon Sep 02, 2013 1:53 pm

I would've slowed and let the bus pull out in front of me and continued on.

I'd also tend to look at how many people are getting on or off. If there was a line up of about 5 people waiting to get on, i would've done a quick head check and lane change if it was likely i had time to get past the bus. But if it was already about to go, then just slowed and wait.
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby duncanm » Mon Sep 02, 2013 1:54 pm

Scarfy96 wrote:Fair enough but that still makes it very very iffy for the cyclist to do the quick whip out and past.

Depending on the timing as a cyclist from past experience there (and I too have ridden that road plenty of times from Glendale to Edgeworth) I would have either:
a) Taken the lane and given the car behind me a wave of thanks and nervously watched the bus for any sign it was about to run over me or
b) If time, pulled in behind the bus, slowed down and let it go and stayed left.

Not being there to know the exact timing and spacing of everything it is hard to say if I would have done a) or b).

I would NOT have done what that cyclist did but having had buses pull out on me a few times when I start passing them and no indicator and when I am past their rear I see the front indicator go on as the bus just instantly starts to pull out has made me VERY nervous of that situation!



yeh.. I was thinking option b), too... just slow down and stay behind the bus.

But we're second guessing the guy on the bike - I think we was going to whip around the bus, but then did a head check and saw the car.
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby Summernight » Mon Sep 02, 2013 8:47 pm

To the pedestrian running in the bike lane beside the line of parked cars... On the WRONG side of the road without lights into oncoming traffic (and yes, it is a fairly busy side street during peak hour), what you were doing was not the smartest thing to do when there are TWO, yes TWO perfectly adequate footpaths on either side of the road, not to mention the other side of the road if you must run on the road (which you clearly wouldn't as you'd be honked by the cars).

You're lucky I don't use that bike lane because it is a dooring zone. And clearly you own the road because when you saw me you made no attempt to move out of the bike lane to the wonderful footpath. :roll:

I just shook my head at you and rolled on by.

EDIT: Oh yes, and the lady who took a step out onto the road on the corner of Collins and Swanston in front of the cyclist in front of me - you almost had your foot run over... I was wondering why, and then I passed you and saw you were engrossed in your i-stupid phone and oblivious to the world. It all makes sense now...
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby kenwstr » Tue Sep 03, 2013 11:48 pm

On a different tack,

Put a new chain on the bike Saturday and all seemed well until I got a bit of speed and shifted into higher gears when the chain jumped some teeth. By 15 km I had slowed it down to lower gears to ease the situation. But the old chain was still in spec so why is it jumping? After a while, perhaps 20 km or so. I realised the jump was at regular intervals a little over 2 crank turns (about a chain length). By 30 km I realised the links must be stiff at the join point. Sure enough when I tested it wasn't free moving so it got a reverse set from the derailleur and then unsurprisingly de-railed. Easy fixed back home with a little reverse push from the chain tool to separate the plates ever so slightly.

1. Dum for not checking the join.
2. Dum for not turning back earlier and just hoping things might bed in and rectify themselves. (But it really came down to: I just wanted to do my ride after enforced time out for a wheel rebuild)
3. Dum for taking so long to figure it out.
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby rdp_au » Wed Sep 04, 2013 9:21 am

Dumb for not spelling the word correctly :-)
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby zephyrus17 » Wed Sep 04, 2013 6:05 pm

On my way home from uni, I always take Rundle Street in Adelaide, and it's a typical restaurant/shopping street. Pedestrians cross the street randomly, and I always anticipate it. Everyday, there's always the person that only looks at cars and ignores the bikes. However, yesterday was epic. A woman was on her phone as she crossed the road, and didn't even see the 3 of us on our bikes. Her husband tried to slow her down, but she just shrugged him off and kept walking. I felt like punching that arrogant face so much.
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby VRE » Wed Sep 04, 2013 6:43 pm

zephyrus17 wrote:On my way home from uni, I always take Rundle Street in Adelaide, and it's a typical restaurant/shopping street. Pedestrians cross the street randomly, and I always anticipate it. Everyday, there's always the person that only looks at cars and ignores the bikes. However, yesterday was epic. A woman was on her phone as she crossed the road, and didn't even see the 3 of us on our bikes. Her husband tried to slow her down, but she just shrugged him off and kept walking. I felt like punching that arrogant face so much.

To paraphrase that silly TV ad from decades ago: "It's moments like these you need AirZounds" :P
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby Mulger bill » Wed Sep 04, 2013 6:58 pm

zephyrus17 wrote:...I felt like punching that arrogant face so much.

One day that type will meet a cyclist with the same attitude. Would it be churlish to hope that on that day there is somebody nearby with a suitable video recording device operating?
...whatever the road rules, self-preservation is the absolute priority for a cyclist when mixing it with motorised traffic.
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby jasonc » Wed Sep 04, 2013 7:54 pm

Mulger bill wrote:
zephyrus17 wrote:...I felt like punching that arrogant face so much.

One day that type will meet a cyclist with the same attitude. Would it be churlish to hope that on that day there is somebody nearby with a suitable video recording device operating?


you don't want to be there with that. someone will end up getting charged. but if it was hearsay.....
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby Mulger bill » Wed Sep 04, 2013 8:09 pm

Not me :shock:

I'm a picture of serenity when I ride, nothing winds me up :wink:

I just think the video would be a hoot :twisted:
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby kenwstr » Wed Sep 04, 2013 11:11 pm

rdp_au wrote:Dumb for not spelling the word correctly :-)


You gat that hu. :wink:

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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby twizzle » Thu Sep 05, 2013 9:24 am

Me today.

A bus was stopped on the on-road on a downhill section, I watched the last passenger getting on and decided I had enough time to get past. Seconds later he flicked the right-hand indicator on and started to roll... 50kph + downhill = insufficient brakes, which caused both myself and the driver a few moments of panic as I tried to pull up and the driver dived back to the side of the road and braked.

It would have been nice if he had waited the 5 seconds after indicating before commencing to move... but I should never have put myself in the situation in the first place.
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