The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby InTheWoods » Thu Oct 24, 2013 4:08 pm

GH wrote:Well what I was actually getting at is that there are some signs in "G" section that reinforce a regulation/requirement such as the ones I quoted.

Correct. I edited the post you as you were replying to actually list the road rules for each example you provided :) It still doesn't change the fact that the signs are guides, not regulatory.

The particular signs in question, near Cleveland, are to put cyclists on a safe route for 50m away from traffic onto a footpath rather than the road.

Are we talking about Gordon's maybe maybe-not bike lane? If it isn't a bike lane and is a footpath you definitely don't need to follow the guide sign. If its a bike lane, you should be in it and the guide sign is reminding you.

The true test will come in a court of law, until then its all just opinion and interpretation.

I think the MUTCD is pretty clear. I don't think we really disagree on much here - all I'm saying is guide signs are not compulsory. The Road Rules are. If a guide sign tells you to do what the road rules already say, then great.
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by BNA » Thu Oct 24, 2013 4:33 pm

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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby GH » Thu Oct 24, 2013 4:33 pm

I just looked on Google street view and its actually onto a service road.
And, if the traffic were heavy, it would be a pretty silly cyclist who did not exit, but
if its early morning, like a couple of weeks ago when the Tri was on at Cleveland then
yes I saw a group riding through it.

https://maps.google.com.au/?ll=-27.5239 ... 5,,0,-1.01

Well that worked, you can see its not a big imposition to follow the sign, and smart if there is traffic.
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby Mulger bill » Thu Oct 24, 2013 4:36 pm

Gordonhooker wrote:
Mulger bill wrote: meanderthals


Love it can I use that word sometimes please?

By all means, all my works are freely available for all to use :D
You may also want to check out "bullybus" too, a descriptive noun I have coined for the vehicle (typically of the SUV/4WD variety), the operator of which believes that the imposing size and mass of their vehicle confers advantage over other "lesser" road users. I use the term operator because IMO, many of them could not drive a knife into a pound of warm butter....

Note that the above analogy to driving is not my typical statement on this matter which has no place on a family friendly forum.
Now, back to the point...

That "All cyclists" or whatever diversion under the bridge...
Can anybody who rides that area advise as to how crappy the surface is in that deviation? Looks too narrow to get a sweeper in which means it'll be chock full of all sorts of detritus, hence impracticable.
...whatever the road rules, self-preservation is the absolute priority for a cyclist when mixing it with motorised traffic.
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby InTheWoods » Thu Oct 24, 2013 4:40 pm

GH wrote:I just looked on Google street view and its actually onto a service road.
And, if the traffic were heavy, it would be a pretty silly cyclist who did not exit, but
if its early morning, like a couple of weeks ago when the Tri was on at Cleveland then
yes I saw a group riding through it.

https://maps.google.com.au/?ll=-27.5239 ... 5,,0,-1.01

Well that worked, you can see its not a big imposition to follow the sign, and smart if there is traffic.


Ok its not the same as Gordon's one. In your example, it is definitely just a guide only, you don't have to follow it. If I was riding fast, I would ignore the sign so I didn't have to merge back in at the end. If I was just pootling along in no rush, sure I'd consider the side road. The point is I don't *have* to use the side road.
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby Gordonhooker » Fri Oct 25, 2013 7:05 am

Gordonhooker wrote:
InTheWoods wrote:
Gordonhooker wrote:Riding in a bicycle lane on a road (s247)
You should:
- always use a bicycle lane where provided, unless it is impracticable to do so


I'm guessing you are quoting from the summary of rules, and have not read what the definition of a bicycle lane is in the actual rules. It must have a bicycle lane start sign, on a sign post at the start, and it will finish at the next intersection unless the bicycle lane carries through the intersection. If it doesn't have one of those signs, it is a bicycle awareness zone, and it is not compulsory to use it.


Will keep my eye out for that on the way home... and let you know tomorrow.


Wynnum Road outbound from the Morningside rail underpass to Tingalpa Wynnum Rd Manly Rd intersection clearly marked as bicycle lane both painted lines and bicycle in white and signed at regular intervals as 'Bicycle Lane' and the bicycle lane takes you through the side lane at the Gateway.

Wynnum Road inbound from the Wynnum Rd Manly Rd lights 'Bicycle Lane' clearly signed and painted except for a spot as you cross Creek Rd but it starts again on the other side of Creek Rd all the way to the Morningside rail underpass.
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby Gordonhooker » Fri Oct 25, 2013 7:12 am

Mulger bill wrote:
Gordonhooker wrote:
Mulger bill wrote: meanderthals


Love it can I use that word sometimes please?

By all means, all my works are freely available for all to use :D
You may also want to check out "bullybus" too, a descriptive noun I have coined for the vehicle (typically of the SUV/4WD variety), the operator of which believes that the imposing size and mass of their vehicle confers advantage over other "lesser" road users. I use the term operator because IMO, many of them could not drive a knife into a pound of warm butter....

Note that the above analogy to driving is not my typical statement on this matter which has no place on a family friendly forum.
Now, back to the point...

That "All cyclists" or whatever diversion under the bridge...
Can anybody who rides that area advise as to how crappy the surface is in that deviation? Looks too narrow to get a sweeper in which means it'll be chock full of all sorts of detritus, hence impracticable.


You are a Master of Words Mulger bill I love them I will tell my wife about the 'bullybus' she often comments about the ones around school pickup areas and the ones that try to make you drive faster then the posted speed limits by sitting right on your bumper bar just about.

Regarding the bike lane looks fairly clear but you would need to ride through it to check - I commute using my motor cycle so I don't think the police or cyclists would be very happy if I rode the harley through the lane. In my post above it is clearly marked as a bicycle lane, the solid bike lane lines take you in that direction with or without the advisory 'ALL BICYCLES' sign. Also given that all but a few cyclists who use that road do use the bicycle lane under the bridge I would suggest it is clear, it is only a few and usually groups that ignore the road rule.
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby Undertow » Fri Oct 25, 2013 11:46 am

Gordonhooker wrote: In my post above it is clearly marked as a bicycle lane, the solid bike lane lines take you in that direction with or without the advisory 'ALL BICYCLES' sign. Also given that all but a few cyclists who use that road do use the bicycle lane under the bridge I would suggest it is clear, it is only a few and usually groups that ignore the road rule.


Looking at google maps (i traced it back from the All Bicycles sign to where there "lane" appears) it isn't clearly marked as a bicycle lane. I can't see any Bicycle Lane SIGNS, painted bikes on the road don't make it an official bicycle lane, just a bicycle awareness zone.
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby InTheWoods » Fri Oct 25, 2013 12:09 pm

Undertow wrote:
Gordonhooker wrote: In my post above it is clearly marked as a bicycle lane, the solid bike lane lines take you in that direction with or without the advisory 'ALL BICYCLES' sign. Also given that all but a few cyclists who use that road do use the bicycle lane under the bridge I would suggest it is clear, it is only a few and usually groups that ignore the road rule.


Looking at google maps (i traced it back from the All Bicycles sign to where there "lane" appears) it isn't clearly marked as a bicycle lane. I can't see any Bicycle Lane SIGNS, painted bikes on the road don't make it an official bicycle lane, just a bicycle awareness zone.


From memory, there are roadworks in google streetview and its probably different now, which is why Gordon had to go check for signs. But correct re sign post vs painted bikes on road.

Although... I believe current proposed changes to the ARR will remove the requirement for the sign post!
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby zero » Fri Oct 25, 2013 12:14 pm

Gordonhooker wrote:
Regarding the bike lane looks fairly clear but you would need to ride through it to check - I commute using my motor cycle so I don't think the police or cyclists would be very happy if I rode the harley through the lane. In my post above it is clearly marked as a bicycle lane, the solid bike lane lines take you in that direction with or without the advisory 'ALL BICYCLES' sign. Also given that all but a few cyclists who use that road do use the bicycle lane under the bridge I would suggest it is clear, it is only a few and usually groups that ignore the road rule.


Its because its a significantly more difficult task to reenter the traffic flow with a group. Groups are best served by staying in the traffic flow, and other road users are also best served by that, because otherwise the group is likely to have to stop, and the group is likely to then be travelling significantly slower after the merge.

That should have always been a concession for individual cyclists to use, and not an "all bicycles" imperative sign.
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby zero » Fri Oct 25, 2013 12:16 pm

InTheWoods wrote:
GH wrote:I just looked on Google street view and its actually onto a service road.
And, if the traffic were heavy, it would be a pretty silly cyclist who did not exit, but
if its early morning, like a couple of weeks ago when the Tri was on at Cleveland then
yes I saw a group riding through it.

https://maps.google.com.au/?ll=-27.5239 ... 5,,0,-1.01

Well that worked, you can see its not a big imposition to follow the sign, and smart if there is traffic.


Ok its not the same as Gordon's one. In your example, it is definitely just a guide only, you don't have to follow it. If I was riding fast, I would ignore the sign so I didn't have to merge back in at the end. If I was just pootling along in no rush, sure I'd consider the side road. The point is I don't *have* to use the side road.


yet again, cars are given an ungraded route, despite not needing a flat route, and cyclists are given a graded route, despite flat being significantly advantageous to cycles, and IMO routing people off a carriageway so that they have to giveway to traffic to get back on it, is not fair access, and its extremely pointless because you must reenter the traffic flow anyway.
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby Lukeyboy » Fri Oct 25, 2013 12:25 pm

I'd say it has more to do with there being no shoulder available in a tight inclosed space. Similar to Sandgate road, Wynumn Road under the Gateway and various other places around here.
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby il padrone » Fri Oct 25, 2013 12:44 pm

Lukeyboy wrote:I'd say it has more to do with there being no shoulder available in a tight inclosed space.

Like this one??


Meh! We just rode on through it.
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby Gordonhooker » Fri Oct 25, 2013 1:06 pm

il padrone wrote:
Lukeyboy wrote:I'd say it has more to do with there being no shoulder available in a tight inclosed space.

Like this one??


Meh! We just rode on through it.



Now that is scary absolutely no room for error in that tunnel by the look of it. :shock:
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby Gordonhooker » Fri Oct 25, 2013 1:10 pm

InTheWoods wrote:
Undertow wrote:
Gordonhooker wrote: In my post above it is clearly marked as a bicycle lane, the solid bike lane lines take you in that direction with or without the advisory 'ALL BICYCLES' sign. Also given that all but a few cyclists who use that road do use the bicycle lane under the bridge I would suggest it is clear, it is only a few and usually groups that ignore the road rule.


Looking at google maps (i traced it back from the All Bicycles sign to where there "lane" appears) it isn't clearly marked as a bicycle lane. I can't see any Bicycle Lane SIGNS, painted bikes on the road don't make it an official bicycle lane, just a bicycle awareness zone.


From memory, there are roadworks in google streetview and its probably different now, which is why Gordon had to go check for signs. But correct re sign post vs painted bikes on road.

Although... I believe current proposed changes to the ARR will remove the requirement for the sign post!


Yep both painting and signs all the way along now both sides of the road.

Those changes make sense but I think both signs and painting are warranted because it doesn't take all that long for the painted bike icons to wear and hard to see when there wet.... :D that's right who goes out in the wet? :mrgreen:
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby il padrone » Fri Oct 25, 2013 1:38 pm

Gordonhooker wrote:
il padrone wrote:
Lukeyboy wrote:I'd say it has more to do with there being no shoulder available in a tight inclosed space.

Like this one??


Meh! We just rode on through it.



Now that is scary absolutely no room for error in that tunnel by the look of it. :shock:

The main road between Pisa and Lucca. We rode our loaded touring bikes through it one day back in June - really not nearly as scary as it looks. Yes, no bike lane - we took the required lane space. It was actually quite safe as drivers simply overtook us with plenty of room (despite the double-lines.... it is Italy after all). The most disconcerting thing was the continuous roar of tyre noise.
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby Gordonhooker » Fri Oct 25, 2013 1:55 pm

il padrone wrote:The main road between Pisa and Lucca. We rode our loaded touring bikes through it one day back in June - really not nearly as scary as it looks. Yes, no bike lane - we took the required lane space. It was actually quite safe as drivers simply overtook us with plenty of room (despite the double-lines.... it is Italy after all). The most disconcerting thing was the continuous roar of tyre noise.


Roads actually built to accommodate bicycle touring good idea Italy.... :)
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby jindydiver » Sat Oct 26, 2013 7:55 am

Mulger bill wrote:
Gordonhooker wrote:
Mulger bill wrote: meanderthals


Love it can I use that word sometimes please?

[color=#0000FF]By all means, all my works are freely available for all to use :D

Do you really believe you invented it? LOL
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby dungee » Sat Oct 26, 2013 8:13 am

I just looked on Google street view and its actually onto a service road.
And, if the traffic were heavy, it would be a pretty silly cyclist who did not exit, but
if its early morning, like a couple of weeks ago when the Tri was on at Cleveland then
yes I saw a group riding through it.

https://maps.google.com.au/?ll=-27.5239 ... 5,,0,-1.01

Well that worked, you can see its not a big imposition to follow the sign, and smart if there is traffic.


That is on my daily commute to Brisbane, I choose to ignore it unless the traffic is really thick. It takes you over the worse sealed road surface I've ever ridden over. There is a similar piece of road 100 meters further up and no all cyclists sign. I think that sign refers to a cycle path that connects onto the side road.
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby Bah77 » Sat Oct 26, 2013 4:00 pm

Me, today.
Image
Did not see this guy indicating until i was about to pass.

Wait... what bike has indicators :shock:
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby skull » Sat Oct 26, 2013 5:59 pm

Blinkers. Cool.
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby Biffidus » Sun Oct 27, 2013 5:57 pm

zero wrote:
InTheWoods wrote:
GH wrote:I just looked on Google street view and its actually onto a service road.
And, if the traffic were heavy, it would be a pretty silly cyclist who did not exit, but
if its early morning, like a couple of weeks ago when the Tri was on at Cleveland then
yes I saw a group riding through it.

https://maps.google.com.au/?ll=-27.5239 ... 5,,0,-1.01

Well that worked, you can see its not a big imposition to follow the sign, and smart if there is traffic.


Ok its not the same as Gordon's one. In your example, it is definitely just a guide only, you don't have to follow it. If I was riding fast, I would ignore the sign so I didn't have to merge back in at the end. If I was just pootling along in no rush, sure I'd consider the side road. The point is I don't *have* to use the side road.


yet again, cars are given an ungraded route, despite not needing a flat route, and cyclists are given a graded route, despite flat being significantly advantageous to cycles, and IMO routing people off a carriageway so that they have to giveway to traffic to get back on it, is not fair access, and its extremely pointless because you must reenter the traffic flow anyway.


also note the all-bicycles-go-left sign followed by a through-traffic-keep-right sign...
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby g-boaf » Sun Oct 27, 2013 6:24 pm

Bah77 wrote:Me, today.
Image
Did not see this guy indicating until i was about to pass.

Wait... what bike has indicators :shock:


Well, he should use hand signals too. Indicators are cheating. :lol: I never seen those on a bicycle before that photo. Who does those? :?:

Remind me not ride through Western Sydney Regional Park (Lizard Log) area at 10:30am in the morning. Cripes there are some oblivious pedestrians there. You are going 5km/h and telling them you are passing, they turn around and just look blankly at you. :?
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby The Fixer » Mon Oct 28, 2013 7:10 am

You used to be able to buy dry-cell-powered indicators for bicycles in the 1960s, a mate had
them, and we sold them from the local LBS, which my Dad owned.

The batteries were always flat!
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby Gordonhooker » Mon Oct 28, 2013 11:48 am

zero wrote:
Gordonhooker wrote:
Regarding the bike lane looks fairly clear but you would need to ride through it to check - I commute using my motor cycle so I don't think the police or cyclists would be very happy if I rode the harley through the lane. In my post above it is clearly marked as a bicycle lane, the solid bike lane lines take you in that direction with or without the advisory 'ALL BICYCLES' sign. Also given that all but a few cyclists who use that road do use the bicycle lane under the bridge I would suggest it is clear, it is only a few and usually groups that ignore the road rule.


Its because its a significantly more difficult task to reenter the traffic flow with a group. Groups are best served by staying in the traffic flow, and other road users are also best served by that, because otherwise the group is likely to have to stop, and the group is likely to then be travelling significantly slower after the merge.

That should have always been a concession for individual cyclists to use, and not an "all bicycles" imperative sign.


There is no reason to re-enter you are still in the marked bicycle lane... or are you trying to say that because you are riding in a group you have no need to use a bicycle lane if it is available and clear for use?
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby g-boaf » Mon Oct 28, 2013 12:28 pm

Anyone see todays Daily Telegraph - "Lambs to the slaughterhouse" advert?

Mr Scruby is getting active with advertising to get pedestrians to be more aware of their surroundings.
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