Scariest thing is that this is what Austroads prescribes as the recommended treatment for roundabouts! So your typical Council engineer just follows the "standards" and the "guidelines" as they do not have the expertise or understanding. Sadly supposed bicycle planning/design experts follow the same nonsense without thinking.zero wrote:Side lanes have little or no safety benefit and they have seriously negative safety repercussions within a roundabout.RobertFrith wrote:It is truly bizarre that painted bike lanes almost always evaporate at the point they're most needed!
New bike lane fail
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Re: New bike lane fail
Postby wellington_street » Wed Nov 06, 2013 11:57 am
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Re: New bike lane fail
Postby Tomca74 » Wed Nov 06, 2013 12:32 pm
But that may make motorists have a stroke at the concept of having to give way to the faster vehicle
- GeoffInBrisbane
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Re: New bike lane fail
Postby GeoffInBrisbane » Wed Nov 06, 2013 2:36 pm
I just ride out in the main lane. Most drivers I've been around at that point have been cool with this, and I'd rather deal with a toot than getting clipped. Agree it would be much better if the bike lane wasn't there though.
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Re: New bike lane fail
Postby wellington_street » Wed Nov 06, 2013 4:18 pm
- il padrone
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Re: New bike lane fail
Postby il padrone » Wed Nov 06, 2013 5:57 pm
"An unjustified and unethical imposition on a healthy activity."
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Re: New bike lane fail
Postby wellington_street » Wed Nov 06, 2013 6:21 pm
Even if its legal to not use them, the actual result is drivers thinking that you do need to use them and that's not a good outcome. Good engineering should always encourage desirable/correct behaviour from road users and this certainly does not.
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Re: New bike lane fail
Postby il padrone » Wed Nov 06, 2013 6:29 pm
Rule 119 is the only rule that I can find:
Victorian Road Rules wrote:119 Giving way by the rider of a bicycle or animal to a vehicle leaving a roundabout
The rider of a bicycle or animal who is riding in the far left marked lane of a roundabout with 2 or more marked lanes, or the far left line of traffic in a roundabout with room for 2 or more lines of traffic (other than motor bikes, bicycles or animals), must give way to any vehicle leaving the roundabout.
Says nothing about use of the left marked lane being mandatory, nor even it being a bike lane. The bike lane requirement is in Rule 247, but the "unless it is impracticable to do so" bit would apply to most of my maneuvers in roundabouts. Unless you are going left or straight through, use of a left lane is impracticable, because it places the cyclist in a very dangerous situation.
"An unjustified and unethical imposition on a healthy activity."
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Re: New bike lane fail
Postby wellington_street » Wed Nov 06, 2013 6:56 pm
My preferred arrangement is an optional path around the outside, with 45 degree ramps from lane to path, and the option to 'claim the lane' and ride through as a vehicle would. That satisfies all types of cyclist without the serious safety issues caused by in-roundabout marked lanes.
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Re: New bike lane fail
Postby il padrone » Wed Nov 06, 2013 8:13 pm
"An unjustified and unethical imposition on a healthy activity."
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Re: New bike lane fail
Postby wellington_street » Thu Nov 07, 2013 12:12 pm
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Re: New bike lane fail
Postby human909 » Thu Nov 07, 2013 3:31 pm
It is exactly where design guidance is gotten from! But it gets worse:wellington_street wrote:It would not surprise me if this is where Austroads got its design guidance from. The diagrams on page 5 and 6 are scary.
VIC RR 119
Giving way by the rider of a bicycle or animal to a vehicle leaving a roundabout
The rider of a bicycle or animal who is riding in the far left marked lane of a roundabout with 2 or more marked lanes, or the far left line of traffic in a roundabout with room for 2 or more lines of traffic (other than motor bikes, bicycles or animals), must give way to any vehicle leaving the roundabout.
That law effectively makes left hooking bicycles in roundabout legal! A cyclist would be held to blame for a left hook in a roundabout.
The treatment of treatment of cyclists in a roundabout is plainly absurd. Yet another thing were the road rules actively put cyclists lives at risk.
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Re: New bike lane fail
Postby GeoffInBrisbane » Thu Nov 07, 2013 3:32 pm
Oh? Well how do those crazy Europeans cope with their low traffic capacity roundabouts? Just fine, you say? By developing the patience to be able to slow down for ten seconds without getting road rage? Well to hell with that, we can't prioritise pedestrian and cyclist safety over motorists right to travel through roundabouts as fast as possible. That's unaustrayan!
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Re: New bike lane fail
Postby InTheWoods » Thu Nov 07, 2013 3:45 pm
I was just thinking, sucks to be a Victorian then. But qld is the same, I guess its an ARR thing (without checking).human909 wrote:It is exactly where design guidance is gotten from! But it gets worse:wellington_street wrote:It would not surprise me if this is where Austroads got its design guidance from. The diagrams on page 5 and 6 are scary.
VIC RR 119
Giving way by the rider of a bicycle or animal to a vehicle leaving a roundabout
The rider of a bicycle or animal who is riding in the far left marked lane of a roundabout with 2 or more marked lanes, or the far left line of traffic in a roundabout with room for 2 or more lines of traffic (other than motor bikes, bicycles or animals), must give way to any vehicle leaving the roundabout.
That law effectively makes left hooking bicycles in roundabout legal! A cyclist would be held to blame for a left hook in a roundabout.
The treatment of treatment of cyclists in a roundabout is plainly absurd. Yet another thing were the road rules actively put cyclists lives at risk.
But with road rule pedant hat on, the roundabout has to have either
a) 2 or more marked lanes (note the defintion of "marked lanes" does not exclude bicycle lanes); or
b) room for 2 cars to go around it at the same time
so it doesn't apply to all roundabouts. However it creates a huge gray area as to whether any particular roundabout has room for 2 or more cars - how wide does it have to be, exactly?
What a stupid rule.
Edit: It still sucks to be a victorian though
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Re: New bike lane fail
Postby antigee » Mon Nov 11, 2013 5:47 pm
http://goo.gl/maps/kcE1T
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Re: New bike lane fail
Postby wellington_street » Mon Nov 11, 2013 6:18 pm
On the north approach, is that a kerb separating traffic lane and cycle lane?
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Re: New bike lane fail
Postby il padrone » Mon Nov 11, 2013 7:31 pm
There is no legal compulsion to use the trail - ride on the road by all means. However I can assure you that the Anniversary Trail is quite a good ride, despite a few odd street crossings. Just back up the hill from that one is this roundabout - it is convoluted, but I have always found it safe enough to ride.
If there have been green bike-lanes painted on the roundabout since the Google pictures, you are not compelled to use them either. Take the lane that you need to use as a legitimate road vehicle.
"An unjustified and unethical imposition on a healthy activity."
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Re: New bike lane fail
Postby wellington_street » Mon Nov 11, 2013 8:03 pm
Yeah there has been green lanes painted since Google imagery was taken (I looked on Nearmaps).il padrone wrote:If there have been green bike-lanes painted on the roundabout since the Google pictures, you are not compelled to use them either. Take the lane that you need to use as a legitimate road vehicle.
To add insult to injury, there appears to be a kerb separating traffic lane and cycle lane for a fair distance before the roundabout on the north approach which prevents you from claiming the lane.
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Re: New bike lane fail
Postby il padrone » Mon Nov 11, 2013 8:27 pm
"An unjustified and unethical imposition on a healthy activity."
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Re: New bike lane fail
Postby Tomca74 » Mon Nov 11, 2013 9:12 pm
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Re: New bike lane fail
Postby wellington_street » Mon Nov 11, 2013 9:36 pm
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Re: New bike lane fail
Postby Tomca74 » Wed Nov 13, 2013 9:04 pm
She asked me if it would be safer for him to ride in the "car lane" even though it's illegal. I did set her straight on that one.
That is the sort of assumption too many drivers have. And she isn't an aggressive driver and has an unblemished 20 year driving history.
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Re: New bike lane fail
Postby antigee » Wed Nov 13, 2013 11:15 pm
not looked at the mapping that some of the posts have but yes there is now a kerb that creates a narrow lane from the shared path meaning that unless you ignore the cycle lane markings and turn into the traffic beyond the raised kerb you have to approach the roundabout way to the left - I've used it but after I got a passenger side door opening followed by a non indicated left turn I now ignore the markings move into the traffic and take the lane - I've only been in Aus a year or so - finding my way around - would rate myself as experienced at urban cycling but a lot of this stuff is just non intuitive feel that I should give it a go but my experience says this is dangerous - so should I let my kids ride this junction? - compare and contrast road markings / signs for vehicles are consistent and easily understood (and at speed) - on a bike I have to stop and look for where to go andthen assess is it safe [whinging pom] frustrated[/whinging pom]On the north approach, is that a kerb separating traffic lane and cycle lane?
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Re: New bike lane fail
Postby human909 » Wed Nov 13, 2013 11:45 pm
Oi! We don't have a monopoly of silly infrastructure!antigee wrote:[whinging pom] frustrated[/whinging pom]
And there is much more for a laugh!
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/pete.meg/w ... h/book.htm
But I am a proudly claim a victory over the Poms in our higher kill rate on the road.
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