New bike lane fail

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Re: New bike lane fail

Postby wellington_street » Wed Nov 06, 2013 10:57 am

zero wrote:
RobertFrith wrote:It is truly bizarre that painted bike lanes almost always evaporate at the point they're most needed!


Side lanes have little or no safety benefit and they have seriously negative safety repercussions within a roundabout.


Scariest thing is that this is what Austroads prescribes as the recommended treatment for roundabouts! So your typical Council engineer just follows the "standards" and the "guidelines" as they do not have the expertise or understanding. Sadly supposed bicycle planning/design experts follow the same nonsense without thinking.
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by BNA » Wed Nov 06, 2013 11:32 am

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Re: New bike lane fail

Postby Tomca74 » Wed Nov 06, 2013 11:32 am

Easy fix would be to paint a green path between the existing ones with a broken line either side.
But that may make motorists have a stroke at the concept of having to give way to the faster vehicle
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Re: New bike lane fail

Postby GeoffInBrisbane » Wed Nov 06, 2013 1:36 pm

I often cross that roundabout on my commute and as soon as I saw it thought "you dumb barstewards!"

I just ride out in the main lane. Most drivers I've been around at that point have been cool with this, and I'd rather deal with a toot than getting clipped. Agree it would be much better if the bike lane wasn't there though.
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Re: New bike lane fail

Postby wellington_street » Wed Nov 06, 2013 3:18 pm

Big problem with the bike lane is that it legally requires cyclists to use it unless its not practicable to do so. However even if it is (rightly) deemed unsafe to use by riders, drivers will think that the cyclist belongs there and not be tolerant of what appears to be a disregard of the road rules. I'm glad there hasn't been too much conflict at this stage but it's ridiculous that these are still being built.
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Re: New bike lane fail

Postby il padrone » Wed Nov 06, 2013 4:57 pm

As I understand it (and we were told by Vicroads when they introduced this mule of a creature) bike-lanes marked in a roundabout are an optional thing. You can always simply ride through as a vehicle in the normal lane. I'll have to check on any rules about this.
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Re: New bike lane fail

Postby wellington_street » Wed Nov 06, 2013 5:21 pm

Look forward to your results padrone :)

Even if its legal to not use them, the actual result is drivers thinking that you do need to use them and that's not a good outcome. Good engineering should always encourage desirable/correct behaviour from road users and this certainly does not.
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Re: New bike lane fail

Postby il padrone » Wed Nov 06, 2013 5:29 pm

I agree, but I really do not care what drivers may think as long as they keep well clear of me. Most do on the few such roundabouts I have had the joy to ride through. There is one close to where I live that I ride through on occasion.


Rule 119 is the only rule that I can find:

Victorian Road Rules wrote:119 Giving way by the rider of a bicycle or animal to a vehicle leaving a roundabout
The rider of a bicycle or animal who is riding in the far left marked lane of a roundabout with 2 or more marked lanes, or the far left line of traffic in a roundabout with room for 2 or more lines of traffic (other than motor bikes, bicycles or animals), must give way to any vehicle leaving the roundabout.



Says nothing about use of the left marked lane being mandatory, nor even it being a bike lane. The bike lane requirement is in Rule 247, but the "unless it is impracticable to do so" bit would apply to most of my maneuvers in roundabouts. Unless you are going left or straight through, use of a left lane is impracticable, because it places the cyclist in a very dangerous situation.
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Re: New bike lane fail

Postby wellington_street » Wed Nov 06, 2013 5:56 pm

Given that, why [should a road authority] use them? They are essentially paths (i.e. you cross one leg at a time without priority) but without the safety feature of paths (i.e. separation from the traffic lane).

My preferred arrangement is an optional path around the outside, with 45 degree ramps from lane to path, and the option to 'claim the lane' and ride through as a vehicle would. That satisfies all types of cyclist without the serious safety issues caused by in-roundabout marked lanes.
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Re: New bike lane fail

Postby il padrone » Wed Nov 06, 2013 7:13 pm

Have a look at Vicroads Cyclenote No. 15 on providing for cyclists at roundabouts. They even acknowledge the design features of European roundabouts, but say nothing about changing Australian designs. Just those damn interupted poor-man's excuse for bicycle provision, the bike lanes :x
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Re: New bike lane fail

Postby wellington_street » Thu Nov 07, 2013 11:12 am

It would not surprise me if this is where Austroads got its design guidance from. The diagrams on page 5 and 6 are scary.
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Re: New bike lane fail

Postby human909 » Thu Nov 07, 2013 2:31 pm

wellington_street wrote:It would not surprise me if this is where Austroads got its design guidance from. The diagrams on page 5 and 6 are scary.


It is exactly where design guidance is gotten from! But it gets worse:

VIC RR 119
Giving way by the rider of a bicycle or animal to a vehicle leaving a roundabout
The rider of a bicycle or animal who is riding in the far left marked lane of a roundabout with 2 or more marked lanes, or the far left line of traffic in a roundabout with room for 2 or more lines of traffic (other than motor bikes, bicycles or animals), must give way to any vehicle leaving the roundabout.


That law effectively makes left hooking bicycles in roundabout legal! :shock: A cyclist would be held to blame for a left hook in a roundabout.


The treatment of treatment of cyclists in a roundabout is plainly absurd. Yet another thing were the road rules actively put cyclists lives at risk. :roll:
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Re: New bike lane fail

Postby GeoffInBrisbane » Thu Nov 07, 2013 2:32 pm

"It should be noted that the European design provides less traffic capacity than the conventional design and is not necessarily suitable for all locations."

Oh? Well how do those crazy Europeans cope with their low traffic capacity roundabouts? Just fine, you say? By developing the patience to be able to slow down for ten seconds without getting road rage? Well to hell with that, we can't prioritise pedestrian and cyclist safety over motorists right to travel through roundabouts as fast as possible. That's unaustrayan!
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Re: New bike lane fail

Postby InTheWoods » Thu Nov 07, 2013 2:45 pm

human909 wrote:
wellington_street wrote:It would not surprise me if this is where Austroads got its design guidance from. The diagrams on page 5 and 6 are scary.


It is exactly where design guidance is gotten from! But it gets worse:

VIC RR 119
Giving way by the rider of a bicycle or animal to a vehicle leaving a roundabout
The rider of a bicycle or animal who is riding in the far left marked lane of a roundabout with 2 or more marked lanes, or the far left line of traffic in a roundabout with room for 2 or more lines of traffic (other than motor bikes, bicycles or animals), must give way to any vehicle leaving the roundabout.


That law effectively makes left hooking bicycles in roundabout legal! :shock: A cyclist would be held to blame for a left hook in a roundabout.


The treatment of treatment of cyclists in a roundabout is plainly absurd. Yet another thing were the road rules actively put cyclists lives at risk. :roll:


I was just thinking, sucks to be a Victorian then. But qld is the same, I guess its an ARR thing (without checking).

But with road rule pedant hat on, the roundabout has to have either
a) 2 or more marked lanes (note the defintion of "marked lanes" does not exclude bicycle lanes); or
b) room for 2 cars to go around it at the same time

so it doesn't apply to all roundabouts. However it creates a huge gray area as to whether any particular roundabout has room for 2 or more cars - how wide does it have to be, exactly?

What a stupid rule.

Edit: It still sucks to be a victorian though :P
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Re: New bike lane fail

Postby antigee » Mon Nov 11, 2013 4:47 pm

this roundabout in Kew, Melbourne has 2 lanes and more recent than the google pic also has a narrow green painted "cycle lane" on the periphery - I refuse to use the green lane as drivers simply don't look at the edge - they look for vehicles approaching not where the green lane takes you on a bike - so I take the lane - above rule would mean that if I did follow the green markings to turn right (that would then be from the left lane and not the right as any sensible cyclist would do) I should stop and give way to exiting cars ! I guess from that position on the roundabout I'd have to or die - useless

http://goo.gl/maps/kcE1T
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Re: New bike lane fail

Postby wellington_street » Mon Nov 11, 2013 5:18 pm

^ Yep, that's a shocker. It's essentially a path (as you have no priority) but without the safety of a path (i.e. separation from traffic and right-angle crossing points).

On the north approach, is that a kerb separating traffic lane and cycle lane?
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Re: New bike lane fail

Postby il padrone » Mon Nov 11, 2013 6:31 pm

That is all a bit misleading. They are two short seperated paths (really just footpaths) that run along Willsmere Rd. They also provide access to the 'Anniversary Trail', a major and quite popular shared path that forms part of an extensive trail circuit around much of the inner suburbs. Both paths cross Earl St at typical unsigned pedestrian crossing points next to the roundabout.

There is no legal compulsion to use the trail - ride on the road by all means. However I can assure you that the Anniversary Trail is quite a good ride, despite a few odd street crossings. Just back up the hill from that one is this roundabout - it is convoluted, but I have always found it safe enough to ride.

If there have been green bike-lanes painted on the roundabout since the Google pictures, you are not compelled to use them either. Take the lane that you need to use as a legitimate road vehicle.
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Re: New bike lane fail

Postby wellington_street » Mon Nov 11, 2013 7:03 pm

il padrone wrote:If there have been green bike-lanes painted on the roundabout since the Google pictures, you are not compelled to use them either. Take the lane that you need to use as a legitimate road vehicle.


Yeah there has been green lanes painted since Google imagery was taken (I looked on Nearmaps).

To add insult to injury, there appears to be a kerb separating traffic lane and cycle lane for a fair distance before the roundabout on the north approach which prevents you from claiming the lane.
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Re: New bike lane fail

Postby il padrone » Mon Nov 11, 2013 7:27 pm

How do you access Nearmaps? I've looked at this in the past but now I only get a page asking me to sign up to a map package for a price. Used to be that you could ask to just go to the maps and get access for basic personal use. Have they gone completely commercial-only?
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Re: New bike lane fail

Postby Tomca74 » Mon Nov 11, 2013 8:12 pm

they withdrew the free private use last year from Nearmaps. You now need to pay a hefty subscription to use it. Used to be a valuable tool for me to finding bass fishing spots in the suburbs. Google maps don't have anywhere near as good resolution
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Re: New bike lane fail

Postby wellington_street » Mon Nov 11, 2013 8:36 pm

Yeah my employer has a Nearmap subscription.
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Re: New bike lane fail

Postby Tomca74 » Wed Nov 13, 2013 8:04 pm

So I recently bought the wife a new 4wd and as we were driving around the new roundabout today she mentions coming up behind a cyclist yesterday hugging the left through the roundabout. She thought hmmm might be hard to get around without getting into the bike lane and followed him instead of passing.

She asked me if it would be safer for him to ride in the "car lane" even though it's illegal. I did set her straight on that one.

That is the sort of assumption too many drivers have. And she isn't an aggressive driver and has an unblemished 20 year driving history.
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Re: New bike lane fail

Postby antigee » Wed Nov 13, 2013 10:15 pm

On the north approach, is that a kerb separating traffic lane and cycle lane?
not looked at the mapping that some of the posts have but yes there is now a kerb that creates a narrow lane from the shared path meaning that unless you ignore the cycle lane markings and turn into the traffic beyond the raised kerb you have to approach the roundabout way to the left - I've used it but after I got a passenger side door opening followed by a non indicated left turn I now ignore the markings move into the traffic and take the lane - I've only been in Aus a year or so - finding my way around - would rate myself as experienced at urban cycling but a lot of this stuff is just non intuitive feel that I should give it a go but my experience says this is dangerous - so should I let my kids ride this junction? - compare and contrast road markings / signs for vehicles are consistent and easily understood (and at speed) - on a bike I have to stop and look for where to go andthen assess is it safe [whinging pom] frustrated[/whinging pom]
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Re: New bike lane fail

Postby human909 » Wed Nov 13, 2013 10:45 pm

antigee wrote:[whinging pom] frustrated[/whinging pom]


Oi! :mrgreen: We don't have a monopoly of silly infrastructure!
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