Collision on Southern Cross Dr 16/3/2014

[wellington_street]

Bir harsh on the ute driver - looks like a normal lane change. Hes likely to be travelling about 50km/h faster

I don't get what he's hurry is. It was at least 1 or 2 km to the next exit - so really no need to cut it that fine.

You need to account for zoom lens and likely speed differential. It's hardly a close pass.

It's also worth questioning your assumption that he's ok to be doing 80 kph when passing. The speed limit is 80 kph, but you are not
entitled to drive at that speed if it's not appropriate (safe) for the conditions. Passing close to a cyclist at that speed is not IMHO safe for the
conditions.

From the limited information available (i.e. a single photo from a telephoto lens) he's around 1.5m, if not more, from the cyclists when passing them in the adjacent lane.

[Xplora]

Thanks for posting the photo. I saw that article during my maccas break.

THIS IS PRECISELY WHAT I WAS TALKING ABOUT. The drivers have lost a full lane now, and this sends serious signals to the rest of the road users that they aren't required to take care, because there will be a flashing light and a vehicle to send the right signals.

I can see value perhaps on a special ride... Parramatta Cycling ran a Gran Fondo on Good Friday last year that must have attracted 80-100 riders. They were slow rolling. Sag wagon might help there.

But ultimately, the vehicle takes a flexible situation, and makes it very inflexible. It highlights the rude fact that a car is an extremely intrusive vehicle, and a rolling road block pretty much makes certain the basic reality that car drivers are untrustworthy. Despite licences, rego, etc. They aren't to be trusted. So we will block up your whole lane with your own medicine.

Weekend ride recently advised we would be taking "due care" to remove debris etc from the path of the breakdown lane we use... I would hate to think that due care meant blocking half of Windsor Road with a sag wagon, because I can promise the weekend ride will get ABSOLUTELY HUGE with that level of protection.

[mikesbytes]

You can see from the photo that at that time 3 lanes is not required for motor traffic. And that's what I have experienced riding along there on Sunday mornings

[g-boaf]

Gosh, support car behind an amateur bunch. It's going to be interesting when it comes to traffic lights. The bunch moves through and the support car necessarily stops... Catch up won't take long though.

I think this is sadly now necessary - last group ride I was on did encounter one crazy van driver . A car, preferably a hulking big Merc G-wagen would have been a great barrier.

[Xplora]

You can see from the photo that at that time 3 lanes is not required for motor traffic. And that's what I have experienced riding along there on Sunday mornings

What I see is abundant evidence that most Sydney drivers are no better than petulant children with no excuse for terrorising a cyclist or hitting them as those poor 6 people were hit on the 16th... the sagwagon is simply confirmation that there is no justification for the angst on the roads. Cars either don't need the space used by riders, or can't go fast enough to realistically suffer.

[wellington_street]

Vigilante sag-wagonism - spread the word! If you are driving around and see a cyclist, just hang behind him/her to protect them from other drivers

[outnabike]

Vigilante sag-wagonism - spread the word! If you are driving around and see a cyclist, just hang behind him/her to protect them from other drivers

Believe it or not I have done this. When driving my land cruiser I slowed and let the cyclist through a pinch point knowing that I could easily overtake, but the following car may not be as kind.

[Xplora]

Vigilante sag-wagonism - spread the word! If you are driving around and see a cyclist, just hang behind him/her to protect them from other drivers

This isn't NEARLY as insane as it sounds. There is certainly no law preventing you from refusing to overtake. "I didn't deem it safe" might have some legs in court.

[il padrone]

Comparing the width the bunch occupies two-abreast in the lane also suggests that it would be a real squeeze
for them to fit on the shoulder. So why not ride single-file in the shoulder ? With cyclist mounted
video surveillance for insurance ?

Because riding two-abreast and on the road lane ensures that drivers see and take action to avoid the riders. A single line on the shoulder is an 80kmh close-shave waiting to happen.

[g-boaf]

Comparing the width the bunch occupies two-abreast in the lane also suggests that it would be a real squeeze
for them to fit on the shoulder. So why not ride single-file in the shoulder ? With cyclist mounted
video surveillance for insurance ?

Because riding two-abreast and on the road lane ensures that drivers see and take action to avoid the riders. A single line on the shoulder is an 80kmh close-shave waiting to happen.

Riding two abreast and on the road lane doesn't prevent the driver doing stupid things to try and scare the cyclists. The worry is when they get the scare attempt wrong and go firing through the back of the group of riders.

It will deter the sensible drivers, but the increasing number of drivers fueled by the mainstream media and social media won't be deterred. That said, claiming the lane is something I will do without hesitation.

[il padrone]

Actually the incident under the 'scope at the present seems to have been a basic DNS/DNL. No brake lights allegedly. There is not too much you can do about this, but our courts really must throw the damn library at such numpties.

Making yourself as visible and obvious as possible on the roads is a help in avoiding these tragic collisions. Lights, bright clothing, very obvious lane position, movement, all helps.

[Mike Ayling]

Making yourself as visible and obvious as possible on the roads is a help in avoiding these tragic collisions. Lights, bright clothing, very obvious lane position, movement, all helps.

+1

Mike

[trailgumby]

Vigilante sag-wagonism - spread the word! If you are driving around and see a cyclist, just hang behind him/her to protect them from other drivers

This isn't NEARLY as insane as it sounds. There is certainly no law preventing you from refusing to overtake. "I didn't deem it safe" might have some legs in court.

I did this on the weekend. Lakes Way between Smiths Lake and Forster, NSW.

There were between 20-30 cyclists I came across on Sunday morning early in groups of 2-5. I was more than happy to sit behind those going the same direction and wait until it was safe to overtake with a 1.5m gap. If there was a double centre line, I waited.

Dunno what would have happened if someone had come up behind me, but being patient and treating these guys (and occasional gal) with courtesy felt good.

[Pedaling]

Making yourself as visible and obvious as possible on the roads is a help in avoiding these tragic collisions. Lights, bright clothing, very obvious lane position, movement, all helps.

This is exactly what the "sag wagon" does.
As for the motorists interaction with the sag wagon, in my experience from a couple of weeks ago, I was amazed at the differences of the motorists attitudes.
Riding without a sag wagon, this year alone, we have had beer bottles thrown at the bunch, which resulted in a broken wheel and bleeding legs, two !! BAN ME NOW FOR SWEARING !! on a motorcycle trying to kick riders off their bicycles twice on the same ride. I also seen a Nissan GTR weave between two bunches and just missed the back of the leading bunch while at speed. Bullies like these pieces of shite, may not be as "tough" if they thought they may get caught.
Compared to my experience of driving the sag wagon, I had motorists slowing down significantly, waves of appreciation, and giving the bunch an extra lane. I was held up at the lights three times, although I was never too far behind to worry in the slightest.
We had a fall in the bunch on Sunday morning, and if you drive a car, you know there is no chance of being run over by the sag wagon.
The sag wagon is not perfect, nor will it ever will be, but it is a lot bloody safer compared.
I ride on the roads almost every day, averaging over 300 km a week, and I know I feel a lot safer with somebody watching my back.
Cheers,

Darrin.

[il padrone]

Making yourself as visible and obvious as possible on the roads is a help in avoiding these tragic collisions. Lights, bright clothing, very obvious lane position, movement, all helps.

This is exactly what the "sag wagon" does.

Not all of us like, nor desire, to ride about with a sag wagon. I certainly do not wish to see it become some sort of new norm for organised group rides on our roads. As I said, the thin edge of a very big wedge.

Some very basic care, skill, and patience on the part of drivers of motor vehicles is what is required. It is possible, it can be created through more rigorous (not draconian) enforcement of the existing road rules. Our current governments, police, and courts are in a position to do this. Right now!

[warthog1]

+1
Well said Pete.


Blame tapatalk

[gorilla monsoon]

Making yourself as visible and obvious as possible on the roads is a help in avoiding these tragic collisions. Lights, bright clothing, very obvious lane position, movement, all helps.

This is exactly what the "sag wagon" does.

Not all of us like, nor desire, to ride about with a sag wagon. I certainly do not wish to see it become some sort of new norm for organised group rides on our roads. As I said, the thin edge of a very big wedge.

Some very basic care, skill, and patience on the part of drivers of motor vehicles is what is required. It is possible, it can be created through more rigorous (not draconian) enforcement of the existing road rules. Our current governments, police, and courts are in a position to do this. Right now!

Ooohh!! What's it like in Utopia where road authorities and politicians actually give a damn?

[human909]

Ooohh!! What's it like in Utopia where road authorities and politicians actually give a damn?

Flights to Amsterdam aren't too expensive theses days if you want to find out. If you can't afford the flight, then down here in Melbourne we have two councils who really do give a damn. (Pity, councils can't change the road rules.)


Though I think his point was self evidence. Most people don't want to ride with a sag wagon.

[il padrone]

Ooohh!! What's it like in Utopia where road authorities and politicians actually give a damn?

Please point out where I said this?

Maybe start by lobbying your local politicians, council, state member etc. Write letters, demand responses, support other lobby groups. That's if you actually give a damn...


As far as the sag-wagon is concerned I personally never feel that I need one for my safety on the roads, whether riding solo or in a group. I do however generally avoid those freeway-style roads where I can, as they are not pleasant places to ride. Potentially quite safe, just noisy, boring, and full of road debris in the breakdown lane.

[Pedaling]

Making yourself as visible and obvious as possible on the roads is a help in avoiding these tragic collisions. Lights, bright clothing, very obvious lane position, movement, all helps.

This is exactly what the "sag wagon" does.

Not all of us like, nor desire, to ride about with a sag wagon. I certainly do not wish to see it become some sort of new norm for organised group rides on our roads. As I said, the thin edge of a very big wedge.

Some very basic care, skill, and patience on the part of drivers of motor vehicles is what is required. It is possible, it can be created through more rigorous (not draconian) enforcement of the existing road rules. Our current governments, police, and courts are in a position to do this. Right now!

No one is forcing you to ride with a sag wagon. You can ride wherever you desire.
Our Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday and Saturday club rides do not involve a sag wagon.
Obviously you are not familiar with cycling routes south of Sydney. There is no other alternative for large bunches, unless you ride down the princes hwy, which in my opinion is way more dangerous. ESCC only rode this route for one week, until they looked at other alternatives.
As for "thin edge of the wedge", seriously? What are you talking about? Do think there will be a bikie law for cyclists?
And "skill and care on the part of drivers of motor vehicles", I some times find it difficult controlling myself, let alone trying to control somebody else.
Cheers,

Darrin

[il padrone]

As for "thin edge of the wedge", seriously? What are you talking about? Do think there will be a bikie law for cyclists?

In the late 70s most people riding bikes would have said exactly the same thing about the idea of compelling all cyclists to wear helmets.

15 years later and we had the law.



I am never complacent about the level of our 'nanny-state' response and the ongoing systemic bias against cyclists. You've only got to have your club accident insurers seeing this, and hence requiring sag-wagons for all rides 'for safety' (to minimise their risks), and soon enough the state government will bring in the rule for all rides with >6 riders.

[Xplora]

No one is forcing you to ride with a sag wagon. You can ride wherever you desire.

Right now. You can't guarantee that this won't be the case in the future.

What I can see is a precedent where really large group rides have sag wagons and start riding in the lanes of major roads like Southern Cross, or Windsor Road, or James Ruse Drive, or the Great Western Highway... and they stop using the breakdown lanes and cause more angst and disruption; and it will be their legal right to do so.

Hopefully that asserted right isn't taken away.

I haven't ridden Southern Cross Drive, but it's worth considering what Padrone is saying, even if you continue to use the sag wagon. It is possible that this could hurt more than help.

[Pedaling]

Helmet laws compared to a law for all cyclists needing a sag wagon to ride on the road, are two completely different things.
Appreciate your point of view though.

[Pedaling]

No one is forcing you to ride with a sag wagon. You can ride wherever you desire.

Right now. You can't guarantee that this won't be the case in the future.



Hopefully that asserted right isn't taken away.

I haven't ridden Southern Cross Drive, but it's worth considering what Padrone is saying, even if you continue to use the sag wagon. It is possible that this could hurt more than help.

Neither can you guarantee that it will be the case in the future, so it really is a mute point.
I am not using a sag wagon (I have volunteered once), two Sydney clubs are using a sag wagon on one particular ride to help protect riders.
As for "hurt", three fused spines as well as other horrific injuries is the type of hurt we are trying to prevent.
I have asked for other suggestions previously, but all I received was ridiculous comments.
Cheers,

[Xplora]

A friend went to hospital in the ambulance just 10 days ago after taking out 4 others with no further crime to his name than hitting a slippery patch on a foggy morning on a bunch ride. His bike handling skills are good. I'd trust him over me in the paceline!

There is a presumption that these kinds of accidents on the bunch rides are commonplace or preventable. Control isn't something that rests solely with the rider every time. Sag wagons give some protection, sure, but they increase other risks and create other issues down the track, which may be unintended. Bunch riding isn't unsafe. Accidents are rare. COnsidering the skill level required and margin for error, it's amazing that more accidents don't happen. If it wasn't acceptably safe, no one would do the ride. I see a sag wagon as a giant red flag to a bull that can't acknowledge cyclist rights on the road, and now they want to use a car to enforce those rights? Humph lol