Moron Motorists #3

open topic, for anything cycling related.

Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby human909 » Mon Apr 28, 2014 10:43 am

London Boy wrote:You can't on one hand object to certain motorists treating cyclists as second class, while one the other you give them [more] reason to do it.

I give them plenty of reason to do it while obeying every law. Reason such as:
-I am a cyclist
-I am a cyclist on the road
-I am riding in 'their' lane
-I cause congestion
-I wear Lycra/HipsterJeans (need I go on?)

ldrcycles wrote:So if you see someone breaking the law you are supposed to just sit there and do nothing? To remain silent is to consent.

To remain silent is to consent. :shock: :? :?: :?: I'm not sure you'd be allowed on quite a few juries with THAT idea of consent.


I see harmless law infractions EVERY day on the roads. If I yelled at each one I saw I would be hoarse after 10minutes on the road. Every day on my commute I, along with hundreds of other cyclists use pedestrian crossings that occur in the middle of bike routes. Technically this is illegal. Should I yell at everybody for doing so? Or should I be an intelligent person and apply common sense.

This obsessive focus on rules at the expense of simply being courteous and safe has made our roads worse. Anybody who goes around yelling at people who break road rules in harmless situations is making our roads worse.
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by BNA » Mon Apr 28, 2014 11:03 am

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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby jaseyjase » Mon Apr 28, 2014 11:03 am

I suppose we should yell at every person who jaywalks as well :roll:
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby human909 » Mon Apr 28, 2014 11:08 am

Don't be silly only those damn second(third?) class citizens of cyclists deserve to be yelled at. :P
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby jasonc » Mon Apr 28, 2014 11:24 am

jaseyjase wrote:I suppose we should yell at every person who jaywalks as well :roll:


no, you just airzound them til they get out of your way
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby rogan » Mon Apr 28, 2014 11:48 am

outnabike wrote:
London Boy wrote: Whether I am riding or driving, if I see a cyclist go through a red light I will tend to yell at him (or her) that he (or she) is giving us a bad name...

Snipped

London Boy, That is being the problem not solving it.... All, it does is say "I may be a great cyclist , but not a great person."


I personally don't shout at other cyclists doing stupid stuff, unless there's danger to themselves or others. But I'd be interested to hear how others handle (as an example) lane weavers who turn out, on closer inspection, to be stuffing around on mobile phones. Is it legitimate to tell them off or remonstrate with them (I admit to doing this), or does that just make the world a worse place?

Whatever, there are levels or types of behaviour by others on the road, which go beyond what I am prepared to put up with in silence.
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby InTheWoods » Mon Apr 28, 2014 12:27 pm

il padrone wrote:
kenwstr wrote:When I learned to drive, cars had to give way to other vulnerable road users like pedestrians. If for example a Ped was waiting to cross a road, a driver had to stop to let them cross. It didn't matter if it was a crossing or not, peds always had right of way regardless. If it was a crossing, you had to wait until the entire crossing was free of peds before you could proceed to drive. That's right, even if a ped was on the other side of the crossing to you, you were not permitted to drive across that crossing. Things have changed (it seems) and now we have councils putting up signs at crossings that say peds have to give way to cars!

Don't know anything about such signs, but the rules on pedestrian crossings have not changed in recent years (Rule 80 and 81). You seem to be mixing up pedestrian and school crossings

School crossings - do not proceed until the crosssing is completely clear (or waved through by the crossing atttendant)
Rule 80(3) If a driver stops at a children's crossing for a hand-held stop sign, the driver must not proceed until there is no pedestrian on or entering the crossing and the holder of the sign—
(a) no longer displays the sign towards the driver; or
(b) otherwise indicates that the driver may proceed.
(4) If a driver stops at a children's crossing for a pedestrian, the driver must not proceed until there is no pedestrian on or entering the crossing.


Pedesstrian (zebra) crossings - proceed once you have given way to any pedestrians on or approaching the crossing
Rule 81(2) A driver must give way to any pedestrian on a pedestrian crossing.



So, with a zebra crossing you may (and have been able to for as long as I can recall) proceed once the crossing has cleared in front of you and no-one is approaching.



That isn't always true, rule 82:

A driver approaching a children’s crossing, or pedestrian
crossing, must not overtake or pass a vehicle that is travelling
in the same direction as the driver and is stopping, or has
stopped, to give way to a pedestrian at the crossing
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby human909 » Mon Apr 28, 2014 1:10 pm

rogan wrote:I personally don't shout at other cyclists doing stupid stuff, unless there's danger to themselves or others.

People putting other peoples safety at risk should not be tolerated on the roads. In such circumstances I calling people out is not out of place. Danger to themselves? Well that is more highly subjective, many people in this country thinks that includes not wearing a helmet.

rogan wrote:But I'd be interested to hear how others handle (as an example) lane weavers who turn out, on closer inspection, to be stuffing around on mobile phones. Is it legitimate to tell them off or remonstrate with them (I admit to doing this), or does that just make the world a worse place?

A good stare is appropriate, IMO. If crossing into other lanes endangering others, see above.

rogan wrote:Whatever, there are levels or types of behaviour by others on the road, which go beyond what I am prepared to put up with in silence.

I agree. But I remonstrating with somebody over actions over harmless infractions is hardly productive.
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby bernard.carpenter » Tue Apr 29, 2014 6:01 pm

My first post. Hills district Sydney. Unfortunately I encounter someone like this quite regularly.
http://youtu.be/8SXTzIWyvbE

Last edited by bernard.carpenter on Tue Apr 29, 2014 8:30 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby bernard.carpenter » Tue Apr 29, 2014 6:09 pm

Grejoh wrote:I must admit that despite living in Ipswich, QLD, and commuting to and from work most week days on my bike, I have yet to encounter any of the MM's that I read about on here. As Il Padrone has said, I ride predictably. Actually I prefer to think of it as I DRIVE my bike, not RIDE my bike. I behave on my bike exactly as I would if I was driving my car. Obviously there is a speed difference, but everything I do on my bike, I would do in my car, and to me that makes me predictable to other road users. About the only thing I do on my bike that I would not do in my car, as least here in QLD, is at the Traffic Lighted intersection that I go through where I need to do a RH turn, I prefer to do a Hook RH turn. Keeps me out of everyones way, and for ME, I feel safer doing so.


Come cycle each day to work in Sydney - especially in the western suburbs. No matter how considerate and predicable you are, it only takes about half an hour before someone does something stupid. I could literally post a video every day on here.
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby il padrone » Tue Apr 29, 2014 8:28 pm

InTheWoods wrote:That isn't always true, rule 82:

A driver approaching a children’s crossing, or pedestrian
crossing, must not overtake or pass a vehicle that is travelling
in the same direction as the driver and is stopping, or has
stopped, to give way to a pedestrian at the crossing

That is a different situation, someone who has not yet stopped and/or has not got a full clear view of the crossing. Yes, if someone has stopped to give way to a pedestrian, you too must stop, or else you will be very likely to hit the pedestrian.

Rule 81(2) wrote: .....give way to any pedestrian on a pedestrian crossing"



After this when the pedestrian(s) are walking clear, you may drive on. For the school crossing (with flags) you must stop until the crossing is completely clear.
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby il padrone » Tue Apr 29, 2014 8:37 pm

London Boy wrote:Whether I am riding or driving, if I see a cyclist go through a red light I will tend to yell at him (or her) that he (or she) is giving us a bad name...

I see motorists going through red lights and breaking mutliple assorted road rules every day, but quite frankly I couldn't be far-countried yelling at them all :roll:

Why go about making cyclist's lives miserable (and have them responding accordingly) when you let all those motorists off?? Or were you TIC, London Boy?
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby kenwstr » Tue Apr 29, 2014 9:15 pm

InTheWoods wrote:
il padrone wrote:
kenwstr wrote:When I learned to drive, cars had to give way to other vulnerable road users like pedestrians. If for example a Ped was waiting to cross a road, a driver had to stop to let them cross. It didn't matter if it was a crossing or not, peds always had right of way regardless. If it was a crossing, you had to wait until the entire crossing was free of peds before you could proceed to drive. That's right, even if a ped was on the other side of the crossing to you, you were not permitted to drive across that crossing. Things have changed (it seems) and now we have councils putting up signs at crossings that say peds have to give way to cars!

Don't know anything about such signs, but the rules on pedestrian crossings have not changed in recent years (Rule 80 and 81). You seem to be mixing up pedestrian and school crossings

School crossings - do not proceed until the crosssing is completely clear (or waved through by the crossing atttendant)
Rule 80(3) If a driver stops at a children's crossing for a hand-held stop sign, the driver must not proceed until there is no pedestrian on or entering the crossing and the holder of the sign—
(a) no longer displays the sign towards the driver; or
(b) otherwise indicates that the driver may proceed.
(4) If a driver stops at a children's crossing for a pedestrian, the driver must not proceed until there is no pedestrian on or entering the crossing.


Pedesstrian (zebra) crossings - proceed once you have given way to any pedestrians on or approaching the crossing
Rule 81(2) A driver must give way to any pedestrian on a pedestrian crossing.



So, with a zebra crossing you may (and have been able to for as long as I can recall) proceed once the crossing has cleared in front of you and no-one is approaching.



That isn't always true, rule 82:

A driver approaching a children’s crossing, or pedestrian
crossing, must not overtake or pass a vehicle that is travelling
in the same direction as the driver and is stopping, or has
stopped, to give way to a pedestrian at the crossing


For clarity, I probably should explain that I learnt to drive before the metrication of speed limits. That is how I recall the situation at the time. Whether this is accurate I don't know but many things were different then.

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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby il padrone » Tue Apr 29, 2014 9:26 pm

kenwstr wrote:For clarity, I probably should explain that I learnt to drive before the metrication of speed limits. That is how I recall the situation at the time. Whether this is accurate I don't know but many things were different then.

I was out riding the bike well before the metrication as well. I'm pretty sure that the rules on school crossings and zebra crossings have not changed since then. I was walking across zebra crossings with my parents and learning the rules, and can recall doing the Kew Traffic School experience back in about 1966 and learning all about crossing rules then from the Traffic School staff. Zebra crossings have always been give way, and do not proceed until the pedestrian has gone from in front of your car (and no more approaching on the crossing) for as far back as I can recall.
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby kenwstr » Tue Apr 29, 2014 9:58 pm

London Boy wrote:
human909 wrote:
London Boy wrote:Whether I am riding or driving, if I see a cyclist go through a red light I will tend to yell at him (or her) that he (or she) is giving us a bad name...


And in turn you make the roads a less pleasant place as an angry cyclist/driver yelling at others.

Actually, they are mostly apologetic. They know they shouldn't do it. We all do, except for those who, one day, might well misjudge their own willful breach.

You can't on one hand object to certain motorists treating cyclists as second class, while one the other you give them [more] reason to do it. Obey the rules and they will have less excuse for their behaviour. And yes, they do class us as all the same. We are not individuals, we are a category, a tribe.


+1 for London Boy.

The way I see it is that actions are a function of beliefs and attitudes. Deliberate and willful breaches of the regulations indicate an attitude that one has or should have the right to decide how and when to apply the regulation as it suits them. This is a very common attitude that is behind most of the grief we cop from motorists and quite a bit of the grief motorists and peds cop from cyclists. Of course there is quite a bit of ignorance which is an issue I am not addressing here. So it seems to me rather hypocritical and arrogant to criticise motorists for their willful breaches if we willfully breach regs as well. It's the exact same wrong attitude behind in both cases. So I think that if cyclists want credible representation in the public arena, they must first clean up their own act or no one will listen.

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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby Red Rider » Tue Apr 29, 2014 10:37 pm

bernard.carpenter wrote:My first post. Hills district Sydney. Unfortunately I encounter someone like this quite regularly.
http://youtu.be/8SXTzIWyvbE


"Why don't you get your car and shove it up your ..." Amusing :mrgreen:
Very pointless manoeuvre by car driver. They obviously need to save their patience for the traffic jams :roll:
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby il padrone » Tue Apr 29, 2014 10:45 pm

cowled wrote:
human909 wrote:I doubt there are many here who have not "jay" walked before.


....Btw, you make a very good point about the jaywalking. I am pretty sure that the majority of folk have jaywalked. It is highly probable that nobody is entirely faultless when it comes to the road rules. So, it seems strange that anyone should be getting upset with the rule breakers, particularly if the rule breaking is not causing a danger to anybody.

Jaywalking.

The classic rule invented by the automobile, for the automobile, complained about by users of the automobile. Google it.

It does not exist in the road rules. No such term, no such offense. You are not compelled to cross roads at a crossing, except when you are less than 20m from a pedestrian crossing. Everywhere else on our roads pedestrians may cross...... entirely legally. The only other requirement is that one crosses by the most direct route (normally perpendicular to the road).

This is a rule that the public, the automobile lobby, and the media continuously conveniently skew against the person walking on the street. Road safety advice has often also been complicit in this furphy.
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby Kraeg » Tue Apr 29, 2014 10:57 pm

il padrone wrote:You are not compelled to cross roads at a crossing, except when you are less than 20m from a pedestrian crossing.


Who carries a tape measure when out walking!?

Actually, I think all pedestrian crossings should be marked 20m out (this would also help motorists who park within 20m of the approach to a crossing to not do so).
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby human909 » Tue Apr 29, 2014 11:01 pm

kenwstr wrote:So it seems to me rather hypocritical and arrogant to criticise motorists for their willful breaches if we willfully breach regs as well. It's the exact same wrong attitude behind in both cases.


No it is not. And repeating this over and over again doesn't make it true.

I and most other cyclists have problems with motorists willfully and negligently risking my life. I don't have a problem with harmless rule infractions from motorists, cyclists nor pedestrians.


kenwstr wrote:Deliberate and willful breaches of the regulations indicate an attitude that one has or should have the right to decide how and when to apply the regulation as it suits them.

Yep, I use this amazing power called discretion. If I get caught then so be it. Last time I got caught going through a No Entry sign, the cop also used his amazing power of discretion too. (Live on the street, the only reason it is No Entry is to stop non local traffic from rat running.)

This focus on rules rather than safe driving has not made the road a safe place for cyclists.
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby il padrone » Tue Apr 29, 2014 11:22 pm

Kraeg wrote:
il padrone wrote:You are not compelled to cross roads at a crossing, except when you are less than 20m from a pedestrian crossing.


Who carries a tape measure when out walking!?


Seriously?!! :shock:

You cannot estimate 20m enough to judge that you are further than that from a crossing and don't need to walk to it (or closer and should take the crossing)?

How can you ride a bike two-abreast and ensure that you are less than 1.5m from your buddy??
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby cowled » Wed Apr 30, 2014 8:47 am

kenwstr wrote:So I think that if cyclists want credible representation in the public arena, they must first clean up their own act or no one will listen.


Ken, you had me nodding in broad agreement until you said this. There is no amount of 'cleaning up our act' that will get through to folk who just don't want to listen. The only thing they will pay attention to is the possibility of having to pay a fine or lose their driving license.

I have lost count of the number of times I have been honked at when I was doing absolutely nothing wrong. See this video as just one example.



There will always be a group of motorists who harbour an irrational hatred of cyclists and will object to us even being on the road. We cannot do anything to get folk like that to listen.

Having said that, getting cyclists to clean up their act is a worthy campaign. Good luck with that.
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby cowled » Wed Apr 30, 2014 9:00 am

il padrone wrote:Jaywalking.

The classic rule invented by the automobile, for the automobile, complained about by users of the automobile. Google it.

It does not exist in the road rules. No such term, no such offense. You are not compelled to cross roads at a crossing, except when you are less than 20m from a pedestrian crossing. Everywhere else on our roads pedestrians may cross...... entirely legally. The only other requirement is that one crosses by the most direct route (normally perpendicular to the road).

This is a rule that the public, the automobile lobby, and the media continuously conveniently skew against the person walking on the street. Road safety advice has often also been complicit in this furphy.


Of course, you are completely correct, Peter. But, when I was talking about jaywalking I meant it to apply to those places that are within 20m of a pedestrian crossing.

I had this argument with a co-worker many years ago. He was a bit of a bogan who thought that cyclists should stick to footpaths. He was complaining to me about the number of cyclists who run red lights. I asked him if he had ever crossed on foot at a signalised intersection when the red man was showing. Of course he had jaywalked and admitted to doing it regularly. I then asked him what the difference was if a cyclist did the exact same thing. Of course, that was just a bit too much logic for the poor fellow and he then moved on to a rant about cyclists riding two abreast. I had to chuckle at that. My bogan colleague had no idea that it was perfectly legal to ride two abreast. He was genuinely surprised when I told him that it was legal. He just couldn't believe it.
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby InTheWoods » Wed Apr 30, 2014 10:29 am

il padrone wrote:That is a different situation, someone who has not yet stopped and/or has not got a full clear view of the crossing. Yes, if someone has stopped to give way to a pedestrian, you too must stop, or else you will be very likely to hit the pedestrian.

After this when the pedestrian(s) are walking clear, you may drive on. For the school crossing (with flags) you must stop until the crossing is completely clear.


I don't think you understood what I meant.

You said
il padrone wrote:So, with a zebra crossing you may (and have been able to for as long as I can recall) proceed once the crossing has cleared in front of you and no-one is approaching.


And I said no that isn't always true. As rule 82 says (which I quoted), you cannot proceed at a zebra crossing even if the crossing is clear in front of you, if there is another car travelling in the same direction as you that has, is, or is the process of stopping to give way to somebody on the crossing.

As agreed, at childrens crossings you cannot proceed until the entire crossing is fully clear.
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby alexander » Wed Apr 30, 2014 11:07 am

Seems another person has been hit and is now in critical condition.

http://www.news.com.au/national/nsw-act ... 6900605580

The cyclist was heading along Princes Hwy, and the Postie truck was turning right into may street opposite of the cyclist. The truck has clearly hit the cyclist from side on, (see bicycle damage) and then the cyclists has fallen off and been dragged under the vehicle.

So:
1. the cyclist has jumped the red/crossed the crossing on the red and the truck hit him when he had the green arrow.
2. the driver has turned right and not seen the cyclist and hit him as he's filtered up the left, the truck thought it was clear as traffic had stopped but the cyclist hasn't.
3. The truck driver has turned illegally and hit the cyclist.

Number 2 is the most likely, will wait further developments, and thoughts go out to injured man, and family and friends of the injured.
Last edited by alexander on Wed Apr 30, 2014 12:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby elantra » Wed Apr 30, 2014 11:14 am

human909 wrote:
kenwstr wrote:So it seems to me rather hypocritical and arrogant to criticise motorists for their willful breaches if we willfully breach regs as well. It's the exact same wrong attitude behind in both cases.


No it is not. And repeating this over and over again doesn't make it true.

I and most other cyclists have problems with motorists willfully and negligently risking my life. I don't have a problem with harmless rule infractions from motorists, cyclists nor pedestrians.


kenwstr wrote:Deliberate and willful breaches of the regulations indicate an attitude that one has or should have the right to decide how and when to apply the regulation as it suits them.

Yep, I use this amazing power called discretion. If I get caught then so be it. Last time I got caught going through a No Entry sign, the cop also used his amazing power of discretion too. (Live on the street, the only reason it is No Entry is to stop non local traffic from rat running.)

This focus on rules rather than safe driving has not made the road a safe place for cyclists.

Totally agree.
Occasionally you see something so outrageous on a bike that it makes you want to say something.
But some of the crazy riding is probably drug-induced so saying something wouldnt help anyway.
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby SheikYerbouti » Wed Apr 30, 2014 11:34 am

alexander wrote:Seems another person has been hit and is now in critical condition.


The pic in this story http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/cyclist-fight ... zr1px.html can lead to believing that the postie may have been turning left, and if the cyclist came up their left hand side as they turned, the driver may not have seen him, and has caught him under their left size. Disclaimer, I drive trucks and they have big blind spots of person size down low on the left - cyclists have to understand where vehicle blind spots are and stay out of them. Regardless of what happened and whose fault it is I hope the poor guy is going to be OK.
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