Next step

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Next step

Postby choco27 » Thu Jun 19, 2014 1:10 pm

After some advice, I've been riding now for approx 6 months started off weighing 108 kg and now down to 95kg last couple of months I'm doing near 200km a week on my bike and have done in past 4 weeks 5 100km rides
What I would like to know is what should I do next? should I keep doing one 100km ride a week(approx 3 & half hours) to help get my weight down or should I do shorter rides with more intensity?
Thanks in advance for any advice

cheers

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by BNA » Thu Jun 19, 2014 1:36 pm

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Re: Next step

Postby Crawf » Thu Jun 19, 2014 1:36 pm

A bit of everything, keep the body guessing.
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Re: Next step

Postby g-boaf » Thu Jun 19, 2014 2:03 pm

As the above person said, everything.

You could try doing 2 100km rides a week, or maybe 3. Or start trying to ride faster than before, take in some more hills if there are some nearby.

And one stage I was doing 4-5 100km rides per week. I was getting down under 60kg doing that, even with fairly rubbish eating habits. It takes some effort to get the body to accept doing that, but it can be done provided you don't ramp up the kms too suddenly. You've also got to take care of recovery, have a couple of rest days in between and your leg muscles get sore or tight, use a foam roller to free them up and ease up the soreness.

I did that because I wanted to - not for any other reason. My mind and heart isn't into racing, even though I've tried it a few times.
Last edited by g-boaf on Thu Jun 19, 2014 6:56 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Next step

Postby macca33 » Thu Jun 19, 2014 3:02 pm

Crawf wrote:A bit of everything, keep the body guessing.



Sounds good - do hard efforts to raise your threshold and also remember to do some recovery rides too.

Great effort on your improved fitness/wellbeing too Choco.

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Re: Next step

Postby Xplora » Thu Jun 19, 2014 4:14 pm

What do you want to do choco? Lose more weight? Get faster? Start racing? It might be worthwhile riding a single 160km instead of a pair of 100s, maybe once a fortnight. You'll naturally be digging deeper deeper deeper to get that extra distance managed. Exponentially harder. 100kms is hard, 200kms is three times harder, 300kms is 9 times harder. Once you've peeled off 120kms, you will be on autopilot.

Just be careful with your "next step". I injured myself after overdoing it, and I lost about 3-4 months of fitness. So much I think I'll have to drop a grade when I restart racing.
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Re: Next step

Postby choco27 » Thu Jun 19, 2014 4:19 pm

Xplora wrote:What do you want to do choco? Lose more weight? Get faster? Start racing? It might be worthwhile riding a single 160km instead of a pair of 100s, maybe once a fortnight. You'll naturally be digging deeper deeper deeper to get that extra distance managed. Exponentially harder. 100kms is hard, 200kms is three times harder, 300kms is 9 times harder. Once you've peeled off 120kms, you will be on autopilot.

Just be careful with your "next step". I injured myself after overdoing it, and I lost about 3-4 months of fitness. So much I think I'll have to drop a grade when I restart racing.


Actually you got it spot on :)
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Re: Next step

Postby Derny Driver » Thu Jun 19, 2014 6:03 pm

I don't usually disagree with g boaf and Xplora but I will here. I wouldn't recommend doing those longer rides. There comes a point, and for you it would probably be after about 50k, that you are just digging holes and suffering and going slow, and that's not training. That is not building yourself up, you are just tearing things down.
I would start at the other end and learn how to ride 10km properly, then 20, then 30 and so on.
200k a week is not really a lot, and on the other hand it is enough. When I was tied up with job and family I used to do 4 x 50km rides each week, then race. It was enough to win B grade almost at will, and to be competitive in A grade. To be better than that I had to step it up a bit.
I would suggest you stick to rides of between 40km minimum and 60 maximum for a while. Learn to ride that distance correctly, that is with good pedalling cadence, nice still relaxed upper body and arms. Do that 4 or 5 days a week. Don't do consecutive hard days. Don't do more than 2 hard rides a week. Variety is very important. Vary where you go, some days hilly, undulating, others flat. Some days ride fairly hard in sections, some days just twiddle along nice and easy. If you want to ride flat out, make it only for 20km of the ride, not the whole way. Some rides can be short and fast, others longer and slower. after a few months of doing this sort of thing you could throw in ONE longer ride each week, say 80-100km. I see absolutely no benefit in riding more that 100km unless you are racing over distances like that, which you aren't. Most club races are 30-40km and people don't get dropped because of the distance, its because of the speed. When you get to the stage of starting racing you can do some really short interval stuff or track training or things like that to help build speed.
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Re: Next step

Postby Xplora » Thu Jun 19, 2014 7:32 pm

To add to what to Derny has said - the big thing is making sure your rides are a good solid length. You can't do 50kms in less than 90 minutes. So, DD was getting 4 good solid hitouts a week, plus the race. You don't build your base with super intense rides, but with nice long rides. Try and do your 100kms in 3 hours moving. Spend some more time on the front during your hundred.

I think having a big ride at least once a month really stretches your endurance abilities. The Strava Gran Fondo series has made so many riders I know ascend to the next level it's not even funny. It's adjusting your body from saying "yay I finished a 100" to "You know, I reckon I could do that 130 in 4 hours moving if the bunch went for it". I've averaged over 30kmh solo for 130kms in serious heat, that was the result of lots and lots of training, but also saying to myself that a 3 hour century isn't enough to brag about. Work towards consistently pulling 3 hour 100s on that ride, you'll do well.

Bear in mind also that Derny's genetics are quite good for cycling, his kids are quite handy on a bike too ;)

In the end, you've done awesome, don't kill yourself, just work towards doing what you are doing a little bit faster, 1-2 minutes at a time.
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Re: Next step

Postby Derny Driver » Thu Jun 19, 2014 9:23 pm

Xplora wrote:Bear in mind also that Derny's genetics are quite good for cycling, his kids are quite handy on a bike too ;)

Mate I wouldn't deny that my dad was quite a champ and my young bloke goes alright, but there has been plenty of light hearted banter in my family about how genes skip a generation :? .. I was just an average plugger. Nevertheless I think my observations run true as I have seen plenty of average or less than average guys punch above their weight with the right sort of training as I have described. Build up nice and gradually and vary what you do. Race regularly. Err on the side of less training rather than too much. Lots of sleep is absolutely vital. Also, you will struggle to lose weigh purely by bike riding, its a load bearing activity ..you will need to combine a specific diet with the riding.

PS I only have one son, the other belongs to my brother, although he practically lives at my place. :D
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Re: Next step

Postby g-boaf » Fri Jun 20, 2014 9:18 am

The problem with too much training is that you end up totally exhausted (even with adequate sleep) and with that goes the motivation too.

While I did do a lot of 100km rides per week once, I don't do them now. It's only a single 130km+ ride per week, and it's at Z2 with cadence supposed to be more than 95rpm. Most of what I'm doing is barely more than 30km now that I look at it.
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Re: Next step

Postby wombatK » Fri Jun 20, 2014 10:49 am

+1 on Derny's advice, especially if racing is your objective. If your main concern is just keeping the weight off, or shedding more, there's a lot of evidence that interval training - repeated short vigorous (sprint-like) efforts are very effective at that. Tackling hilly terrain over shorter distances is a good way to achieve that. Quality is better than quantity sometimes. Doubly so on the food intake side of the equation.
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Re: Next step

Postby choco27 » Fri Jun 20, 2014 11:17 am

Xplora wrote:To add to what to Derny has said - the big thing is making sure your rides are a good solid length. You can't do 50kms in less than 90 minutes. So, DD was getting 4 good solid hitouts a week, plus the race. You don't build your base with super intense rides, but with nice long rides. Try and do your 100kms in 3 hours moving. Spend some more time on the front during your hundred.

I think having a big ride at least once a month really stretches your endurance abilities. The Strava Gran Fondo series has made so many riders I know ascend to the next level it's not even funny. It's adjusting your body from saying "yay I finished a 100" to "You know, I reckon I could do that 130 in 4 hours moving if the bunch went for it". I've averaged over 30kmh solo for 130kms in serious heat, that was the result of lots and lots of training, but also saying to myself that a 3 hour century isn't enough to brag about. Work towards consistently pulling 3 hour 100s on that ride, you'll do well.

Bear in mind also that Derny's genetics are quite good for cycling, his kids are quite handy on a bike too ;)

In the end, you've done awesome, don't kill yourself, just work towards doing what you are doing a little bit faster, 1-2 minutes at a time.


Below are the big rides I have done in order off strava conditions eg wind affected me on some of them, thanks again for your advice and thoughts I'll mix things up from now on and see how things go.


115.3km

Avg Max
Speed 26.3km/h 52.9km/h
Heartrate 131bpm 169bpm
Calories 2,441
Elapsed Time 4:28:00


101.8km

Avg Max
Speed 29.3km/h 54.7km/h
Heartrate 149bpm 167bpm
Calories 2,223
Time 3:28:41


105km

Avg Max
Speed 28.1km/h 41.0km/h
Heartrate 149bpm 169bpm
Cadence 89 132
Calories 2,100
Temperature 13℃
time 3.44.22

107.2km
Avg Max
Speed 29.6km/h 60.1km/h
Cadence 91 126
Calories 2,318
Temperature 11℃
time 3.36.57

102.3km

Avg Max
Speed 28.2km/h 47.2km/h
Heartrate 144bpm 164bpm
Cadence 88 141
Calories 2,101
Temperature 10℃
time 3.37.49
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Re: Next step

Postby Ross » Fri Jun 20, 2014 11:31 am

Xplora wrote:Bear in mind also that Derny's genetics are quite good for cycling, his kids are quite handy on a bike too ;)



Sounds like it. If I only rode 4 x 50km a week I wouldn't even see the back of E grade.
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Re: Next step

Postby Xplora » Fri Jun 20, 2014 11:45 am

I'll give you a goal that might be achievable, based on what you've got there. First 75, do what you're doing. Last 25, aim to increase your average speed to 30. If you're able to set a lap counter, set a lap at 75 and aim to hit your 30kmh average after that. You will chew up a lot of your nervous energy and so forth in the first 75, but you'll know that you have to save yourself for that 25. It will be REALLY hard to hit 30kmh. Your heart rate makes it clear you aren't being a slouch for your 28 average.

That might give you something more tangible to work towards. If you try this and end up on your back all afternoon asleep, maybe just do it for 10kms. Once you hit that 30, aim for 30.5, 31, 32. Don't do it for the whole ride straight away, this is "sorta" interval training. :mrgreen:

Something I've realised in racing is that a lot of the game is knowing when to spend the bikkies - but it always happens right at the end. I prefer to break and TT home, but most of the sprinters are content to ride their 100 and put on the hurt in the last 2kms, letting the afterburners on with 300m to go. That last 2kms is really hard work if you've been attacking and breaking for the rest of the race (which is why I often get dropped by the bunch on the bell lap if I don't get away).

If you aren't pretending you're Greipel in the sprint to the coffee shop, start doing it. This is as close to race conditions as you will ever see. Trek Rouse Hill's coffee sprint actually an enormous grind from 5kms out, with some good gentle hills to thin out the pack before the final bang. This is just like a race. Everyone gets on their limit right at the end. You can't do this alone, by the way. You need the red mist to spur you on. You can collapse at the coffee shop :)
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Re: Next step

Postby Ryanhyltoncummins » Fri Jun 20, 2014 12:39 pm

Go climb some hills/mountains. Add a 5-10 minute climb in your regular route if possible and try doing that like once a week. Don't go for anything redic steep its hard to keep your heartrate down on anything over around 15% even less for some people. Even if you just do one or two climbs a week you'll notice yourself getting stronger and then you can start pushing over those little rises with less effort and even continuing the same speed you had on the flat over the top of the hill. I've found I can easily spin up a climb around 160bpm if its around 8-10% possibly even lower gradient would would work depending on your overall weight I'm somewhere in the high 50's I've got a lot of things going my way already. I started just riding flats but once I started to climb a few hills I got way stronger.
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Re: Next step

Postby foo on patrol » Fri Jun 20, 2014 2:55 pm

Ross wrote:
Xplora wrote:Bear in mind also that Derny's genetics are quite good for cycling, his kids are quite handy on a bike too ;)



Sounds like it. If I only rode 4 x 50km a week I wouldn't even see the back of E grade.


Ahh but it is how you do them there Ks! :idea:

I know a bloke that rides Masters 8 or 9 I believe and is only a second slower than he was 35yrs ago and only does 100klms a week. :wink:

Here is my take on things for you Chocco!

Not knowing how much riding you have done over the past 12mths, I would be doing some standing starts, till you are on top of the gear and then roll out of it. Do these half a dozen times three times a week. :wink:

Never been a big believer in do doing stupidly big Ks just do a big ride once a month. Big/long rides do on a small gear and the shorter ones, you hammer yourself but not day after day. :idea:

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Re: Next step

Postby choco27 » Fri Jun 20, 2014 3:41 pm

foo on patrol wrote:
Ross wrote:
Xplora wrote:Bear in mind also that Derny's genetics are quite good for cycling, his kids are quite handy on a bike too ;)



Sounds like it. If I only rode 4 x 50km a week I wouldn't even see the back of E grade.


Ahh but it is how you do them there Ks! :idea:

I know a bloke that rides Masters 8 or 9 I believe and is only a second slower than he was 35yrs ago and only does 100klms a week. :wink:

Here is my take on things for you Chocco!

Not knowing how much riding you have done over the past 12mths, I would be doing some standing starts, till you are on top of the gear and then roll out of it. Do these half a dozen times three times a week. :wink:

Never been a big believer in do doing stupidly big Ks just do a big ride once a month. Big/long rides do on a small gear and the shorter ones, you hammer yourself but not day after day. :idea:

Foo


I've only been riding from the start of this year and will turn 50 next month, age doesn't bother me still feel the same as I did when I was younger the common feedback is mix up what I'm doing I'll let you guys know in a months time how things have progressed using advice from everyone here.
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Re: Next step

Postby foo on patrol » Fri Jun 20, 2014 4:32 pm

Seeing as you have been riding for only a short time, just do things slowly then! :wink: Learn to crawl before you walk and run! :idea:

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Re: Next step

Postby choco27 » Wed Jul 30, 2014 10:58 am

Since my last post I started mixing up my rides doing 50km with sprints thrown in and climbing our version of hills(not very steep) I'm starting to feel a lot stronger and can sustain better speed even into head on wind averages have slowly climbed and now getting over 30+km/hr most rides, overall very happy and finally seeing a definite improvement.
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Re: Next step

Postby Xplora » Wed Jul 30, 2014 12:03 pm

Fantastic! You have had 6 weeks to adapt to the new system, take a quiet week of you haven't already and then go harder. I am kicking back today after weights in the morning then a blistering bunch ride in the evening. Recovery is key :)
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Re: Next step

Postby cerb » Wed Jul 30, 2014 1:06 pm

Great job on your improvements!

I think DD is spot on in his details above.

Xplora wrote:Recovery is key :)


But again, emphasizing Xplora's point. I know quite a few people who have ramped up training too quickly and done themselves injuries which have then kept them off the bike for 3-6 months and still affect their performance for months after that. It is a 'low impact' sport, but it does place high stresses on the body as a whole when racing or doing endurance riding.

Recover properly and give your body time to adjust to changes you make. A week or two off the bike now and again will slow your improvements temporarily, but may let you keep going for a lot longer. Ramp your training gradually up and down over a few weeks, don't increase and decrease in big steps!

Personally, I take the 3 months of May-July off 'training' and just do social rides, before starting to build again for crit season in October.



*looks at date* hmmm... better get on that!
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Re: Next step

Postby Xplora » Wed Jul 30, 2014 2:35 pm

I think the biggest hurdle re: recovery is approaching your fitness gains and your injury gains with different columns. You increase fitness, and your injury risk comes up at the same speed, but when you rest, your injury risk comes down much much faster than your fitness does. Resting a day or two if you are seriously shagged helps your fitness more than it hurts. I'm struggling to stay awake without coffee right now. I've been hitting the weights for a few weeks and I just need to sleep an hour longer because of the intense adjustments it requires from the body. I've doubled up weights and riding a few times and it puts me in a deep hole. That's OK... I don't have a physical job, waking up for kids is as bad as it gets, plus I'm ignoring racing right now too, so I don't have to back up. I just take a couple days rest. Seems to be paying off. Kept up with the big dogs last night.
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Re: Next step

Postby Pedaling » Wed Jul 30, 2014 10:38 pm

Hey Choco, great advice above.
Some of the things that helped my cycling are;
1. You lose weight in the kitchen, not on the bike. Portion size!
2. Pedaling technique at different cadences. Get some coaching!
3. Stretching to avoid injuries and help you become more aero on the bike.
4. Concentrate on your breathing.
5. Listen to your body, if you're tired, make your training suit. Eg, do some "silly spins".
6. Don't confuse training and racing.
And most importantly, have fun!
Cheers,

Darrin.
"Life is just a ride" Bill Hicks
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Re: Next step

Postby choco27 » Thu Jul 31, 2014 8:52 am

Pedaling wrote:Hey Choco, great advice above.
Some of the things that helped my cycling are;
1. You lose weight in the kitchen, not on the bike. Portion size!
2. Pedaling technique at different cadences. Get some coaching!
3. Stretching to avoid injuries and help you become more aero on the bike.
4. Concentrate on your breathing.
5. Listen to your body, if you're tired, make your training suit. Eg, do some "silly spins".
6. Don't confuse training and racing.
And most importantly, have fun!
Cheers,

Darrin.


Doing most of the things you've listed Darrin I haven't yet done any racing although guys keep putting pressure on me to come out but I honestly want to spend a good 12 months on the bike before hand really enjoying my riding as is at the moment, going on holidays and be off the bike for 3 weeks although might do some MTB around San Francisco next week :)
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Re: Next step

Postby Xplora » Thu Jul 31, 2014 4:28 pm

If you're considering racing, the licence can be bought in October and takes you through to the end of next year... so you can dip your toe in the water a few times, do some more riding, then racing more in February, and it isn't any more expensive than starting from scratch in June next year.
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