Yes, those of us involved with the project are pretty annoyed the UCI is not adhering to their own rules.nezumi wrote:From the other side - Matt Bottrill's attempt at the hour record is going to be put on hold because, as a non Pro Tour rider, he doesn't have a biological passport.
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Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling
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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling
Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Thu Jul 24, 2014 9:10 pm
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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling
Postby AUbicycles » Fri Jul 25, 2014 10:20 am
you subconsciously influenced my thought patterns.herzog wrote:Pretty much what I was getting at 5 posts above
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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling
Postby skull » Fri Jul 25, 2014 12:39 pm
Is that only for that event? Or a complete ban for all for x time?AUbicycles wrote:you subconsciously influenced my thought patterns.herzog wrote:Pretty much what I was getting at 5 posts above
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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling
Postby herzog » Fri Jul 25, 2014 1:18 pm
The way it works in athletics and swimming - if a single team member tests positive, the team is disqualified from that event.skull wrote:Is that only for that event? Or a complete ban for all for x time?AUbicycles wrote:you subconsciously influenced my thought patterns.herzog wrote:Pretty much what I was getting at 5 posts above
This is because the doper contributed to the result of the team. Note this even occurs if the doper only took part in a heat or semi and not the final.
This happened to a US athletics relay team in the Sydney Olympics.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/others ... ydney.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The doper then faces the same additional sanctions that they would have in an individual event.
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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling
Postby herzog » Fri Jul 25, 2014 1:23 pm
Tyson Gay returns Olympic silver medal with doping ban
Nick Zaccardi May 2, 2014, 7:05 PM EDT
Tyson Gay was suspended one year for his failed drug tests last year and loses all of his results from July 15, 2012, including an Olympic 4x100m relay silver medal, the U.S. Anti-Doping Agency said Friday.
Gay, 31, has returned the silver medal to the U.S. Olympic Committee.
Asked if Gay’s disqualified results meant the entire 2012 U.S. Olympic 4x100m relay team has been stripped of its medals, a spokesman for the IAAF [track and field's international governing body] responded via email:
“Yes – according to IAAF Rule 41 of IAAF competition rules of 2012.”
The UCI needs to step up and get serious.Rule 41 states:
1. Where the Athlete who has committed an anti-doping rule violation competed as a member of a relay team, the relay team shall be automatically disqualified from the Event in question, with all resulting consequences for the relay team, including the forfeiture of all titles, awards, medals, points and prize money.
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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling
Postby AUbicycles » Fri Jul 25, 2014 10:20 pm
In tours with a team time trial this logic can be more easily applied. But it is a team sport so yes - let the entire team be affected. For a team you are either all doping anc complicite or you don't because you know it can destroy results.
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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling
Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Sat Jul 26, 2014 9:26 am
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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling
Postby biker jk » Mon Aug 04, 2014 10:16 am
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/roman-k ... -suspended
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/cookson ... tive-tests
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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling
Postby Xplora » Fri Aug 08, 2014 9:07 am
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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling
Postby biker jk » Fri Aug 08, 2014 10:09 am
The problem is that the biological passport is open to interpretation. The UCI appointed panel found an anomaly in RK's profile. The UCI wrote to RK asking for an explanation. He provided an explanation ("dehydration") and the UCI rejected it. RK appointed his own ABP experts to clear him. It's very messy and the UCI knows it needs to be very sure before initiating proceedings as it's open to a long and costly legal dispute. It's not black and white like a failed EPO test. The issue of whether the UCI is targeting Tinkoff-Saxo to help Team Sky is tricky as well. I don't believe they are (and I despise Team Sky) but it would sure help perceptions of no favouritism if Cookson's son didn't work for Team Sky. Recall that McQuaids sons were rider's agents which also produced a bad smell.Xplora wrote:I don't quite understand how the principle of innocent until proven guilty is supposed to work with cases like these, biker. The rider is supposed to be suspended (aka banned from competition) but hen the legals can take months? This isn't a regular court of law, it is based solely on forensic evidence which are hard to dispute, and given that most riders are peaking and preparing for months in advance, it seems unfair to say that you can accuse a rider, stuff up team strategy, ruin sponsorship exposure, and unsettle months of training on a suspicion. Essendon are facing a similar thing. If there is enough evidence to go to the media, there should be enough to formally charge and proceed with a trial ASAP. I am cynical enough to believe that the UCI is trying to stuff Saxo-Tinkoff to help AGR or Sky.
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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling
Postby Xplora » Fri Aug 08, 2014 11:01 am
You can be black as the ace of spades, until someone is prepared to lay charges and take it to a court, it means nothing. (Obeid's dealing in NSW Parliament and the ICAC proves it)
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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling
Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Fri Aug 08, 2014 1:40 pm
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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling
Postby AUbicycles » Sun Aug 10, 2014 9:32 pm
Independent lab testing is a bit of a joke - of course they are going to support an accussed rider and find logical explanations.
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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling
Postby biker jk » Tue Aug 19, 2014 11:16 am
http://www.news.com.au/sport/cycling/cy ... 7028983470
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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling
Postby Xplora » Tue Aug 19, 2014 11:28 am
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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling
Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Tue Aug 19, 2014 1:00 pm
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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling
Postby jules21 » Tue Aug 19, 2014 1:08 pm
maybe he was nervous ahead of the big race?!Alex Simmons/RST wrote:33 units of alcohol couple of days before 260km world championship road race. So hungover couldn't drink at all the day following binge for fear of vomiting. Places 19th at worlds, best placed British rider. That's a heck of a taper.
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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling
Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Tue Aug 19, 2014 2:30 pm
It was immediately after being offered his £400k/year Sky contract.jules21 wrote:maybe he was nervous ahead of the big race?!Alex Simmons/RST wrote:33 units of alcohol couple of days before 260km world championship road race. So hungover couldn't drink at all the day following binge for fear of vomiting. Places 19th at worlds, best placed British rider. That's a heck of a taper.
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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling
Postby jules21 » Tue Aug 19, 2014 3:53 pm
it's still BS. the parameters - high haematocrit, low reticulocytes - have doping written all over them. the defences are always the same "have you considered this extremely unlikely scenario? no? well maybe that provides enough doubt that you should acquit, just to be safe?" no, i don't think so..Alex Simmons/RST wrote:It was immediately after being offered his £400k/year Sky contract.jules21 wrote:maybe he was nervous ahead of the big race?!Alex Simmons/RST wrote:33 units of alcohol couple of days before 260km world championship road race. So hungover couldn't drink at all the day following binge for fear of vomiting. Places 19th at worlds, best placed British rider. That's a heck of a taper.
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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling
Postby Xplora » Tue Aug 19, 2014 4:11 pm
Edit: not to say that we should "accept" any excuses, but simply to say that the professional cycling community is at the absolute limit of human achievement and we should expect some abnormality in their samples because you and I couldn't hope to average 40kmh over 3500kms in a 3 week period sucking a wheel the entire time, yet a number of these guys are going to attempt such a feat twice in a year!
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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling
Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Tue Aug 19, 2014 4:34 pm
indeed it isjules21 wrote:it's still BS.
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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling
Postby biker jk » Tue Aug 19, 2014 5:12 pm
Indeed it's the opposite of what you suggest in that the ABP limits are set such that there's a very small chance that the tests conclude a cyclist is doping when they aren't. With such a high hurdle to indicate doping in the first place, it's a bit rich to run the innocent until proven guilty beyond reasonable doubt story.Xplora wrote:Ultimately, this is the hard thing, Jules. In every other sphere of criminality in the Western world, the standard has always been "beyond reasonable doubt" and drug cheating is treated as guilty because of the sample, despite any explanations otherwise. I've never heard of anyone beating a positive sample.
Edit: not to say that we should "accept" any excuses, but simply to say that the professional cycling community is at the absolute limit of human achievement and we should expect some abnormality in their samples because you and I couldn't hope to average 40kmh over 3500kms in a 3 week period sucking a wheel the entire time, yet a number of these guys are going to attempt such a feat twice in a year!
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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling
Postby ldrcycles » Tue Aug 19, 2014 5:53 pm
news.com.au wrote:"said the rider, who was contracted to Endura Racing at the time, had drunken more than"
Had drunken?
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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling
Postby toolonglegs » Tue Aug 19, 2014 6:06 pm
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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling
Postby trailgumby » Tue Aug 19, 2014 8:23 pm
Beyond reasonable doubt applies in the criminal sphere, in the western world.Xplora wrote:Ultimately, this is the hard thing, Jules. In every other sphere of criminality in the Western world, the standard has always been "beyond reasonable doubt" and drug cheating is treated as guilty because of the sample, despite any explanations otherwise. I've never heard of anyone beating a positive sample.
This is not a criminal matter, at least it isn't at this point. (It might become so later, if the offence was committed in France, and if the police become involved.)
It is at this point a civil matter, concerning the rules of participation in a sporting competition. Therefore, the civil level of onus of proof of "balance of probability" or, to use the terms of the various ADA's, the "comfortable satisfaction" of the tribunal is applied
Seems perfectly reasonable, consistent and appropriate to me. The riders are not about to be locked up and deprived of their liberty. They're just being sent to the naughty corner for awhile.
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