FTP vs LTHR
- Jumma
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Re: FTP vs LTHR
Postby Jumma » Thu Aug 28, 2014 6:51 pm
Yeah, I am using Golden Cheetah and have a reasonable data set in there now. Some 6 weeks or so of trainer sessions and road rides. I just got back from another 2 x 6 km climbs (AT) 6% average up my local mountain. These are just over 20% and I averaged 296 Watts this time, some getting better on this climb. Even though I run a standard with 11-25, which was difficult at first as it started to turn into a grind at times, I am no finding that I am starting to ride more of it in the 12-13 cogs on the rear without grinding i.e. keeping it over 75 and often mid 80's to 90's. So improving I guess and thus the higher power figures and faster times.
Actually, I think you know my sister. I am sure she trained with you only a year or so ago. Her name is Maria and she took out the women's NSW masters back then. I remember she mentioned your name somewhere along the line. She still trains a bit now but she hasn't raced in a while now.
As for FTP, yeah I am happy with where it is set now (AT) 260 as I did a 3 x 8 (AT) 100-105% of FTP with this value the other day and by the end of the third set I was feeling it. This is however at the upper end of threshold range so it should be hard going. I will hold it there for another week or so, probably target the higher end of each workout power range and then adjust it to a higher value in line with today's result - probably set at around 270-275 which is around 93% of this average from today and as Alex Simmons has said low to mid 90's % is probably more realistic. I am happy with this as it feels right!
As I said I am using Golden Cheetah and still learning and trying to get the hand of all this TSS CTL ATL etc. These values are all mapping on my MPC graph in the software. Trying to work out my weaknesses. Problem is how do I know if my CP5 or any other metric sucks?
I am doing my main intervals Tue, Thursday and Saturday at the moment. Tue is normally threshold intervals (AT) either 90-95, 95-100 or 100-105% FTP. THese are either 2X15, 3x10 or 3x8 with 5 min recovery in between. Sometimes I do a light spin on Wednesday zone L1-L2 only. Saturday is normally a HIIT session. I actually use a 90 min CXTC video session which has a mix of lots of on/off sprints and recoveries up to 1.5 mins and some hill climbs. This session normally wrecks me as I go really hard. Otherwise on Saturday I go for a solo mixed ride with some sprints, strava segment runs, a little 10km TT at FTP and above and lots of hill climbs. I go L1-L2 between all of these and try to stay away from L3 (tempo). Sunday I try and do 2-3 plus hours or just free riding. It is mostly L2 with some L4/5 with a bit of tempo in between. Monday I have a break. I do quite a bit of climbing, I enjoy hills for some sick reason. I am trying to do around 200km per week plus, but I would like to ramp it up a bit, time is normally the issue though with a family and kids.
That's my week. Am I obsessed? Yes Pretty OCD really!! I just love being on my bike.
I try to do a lot of climbing too each week as this helps with strength. I am also doing some basic core work and calf raises and squats to help with strength.
Now if I can work out the MPC stuff that will be great!
I think I am going down the right path. I want to start racing in October so I want to at least be good enough to hold on to the pack. I am 80 kg and my FTP I guess is sub 3.5 W/kg if that means much!
Cheers
James
- Derny Driver
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Re: FTP vs LTHR
Postby Derny Driver » Thu Aug 28, 2014 7:08 pm
Theres a lot more to racing than good watts per kilo /power numbers. No matter how prepared you are, you will do well if you can just finish with the group. Racing by nature is very different to anything you can simulate in training. Expect to get your ar$$e handed to you for the first few weeks, even in the lower grades, even with good fitness, strength and power. If you are a smart guy, you will learn fast and adjust. But its a journey.Jumma wrote: I think I am going down the right path. I want to start racing in October so I want to at least be good enough to hold on to the pack. I am 80 kg and my FTP I guess is sub 3.5 W/kg if that means much!
I know your sister, good rider and a nice person too.
Cheers
- Xplora
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Re: FTP vs LTHR
Postby Xplora » Thu Aug 28, 2014 8:10 pm
Amen to that! It MIGHT improve your performances as well. I go a million times harder chasing a result than any interval.Derny Driver wrote:Racing by nature is very different to anything you can simulate in training.
Then the challenge is finding a good horse whisperer that can tell you how to resist that million times until the critical moment, whenever that really is
- Jumma
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Re: FTP vs LTHR
Postby Jumma » Thu Aug 28, 2014 8:17 pm
I was kind of expecting to get smashed in the races. Mind you I am chasing 50 and No spring chicken
I do know what you mean re performance when there is someone to chase rather than training on your own.
I think the variance between training a racing effort is however somewhat dependant on how much "go" one has on general.
Understand that racing gets you fit too. A good thing!
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Re: FTP vs LTHR
Postby Rocketrod » Thu Aug 28, 2014 8:49 pm
Come out in some pack rides before you race to get you more comfortable.
Common pack rides;
Fridays 6am at diggies cafe, goes to Austi and sea cliff bridge.
Sunday 7am meet opposite unanderra pool for a loop around the lake, speeds can vary.
Always coffee after!
Everyone would know Maria! I haven't seen her since she moved to Sydney.
Ride down to the club race and see how things run, meet some people and see what you think.
Rod
- Jumma
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Re: FTP vs LTHR
Postby Jumma » Thu Aug 28, 2014 9:46 pm
I'll try and get in on one of those groups.
Maria still lives in Dapto. She never lived in Sydney.
Thanks
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Re: FTP vs LTHR
Postby Rocketrod » Fri Aug 29, 2014 2:10 pm
Rod
- Jumma
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FTP vs LTHR
Postby Jumma » Fri Aug 29, 2014 3:57 pm
Yeah she hurt her back a while back and stopped. She is still punishing herself in her garage these days when she has time. Normally 4am or so in the mornings. Sufferfest!!!
Who rides the Saturday lake ride? Do guys like Dave Russell ride it? I met him a while ago riding out one if the ICC races. Nice guy. Anyhow weather permitting I might try and get in on a lake ride. Is there a FB page or something that let's riders know if the rides are on. Like strava or something??
Yeah. And coffee after sounds good
Thanks
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Re: FTP vs LTHR
Postby Rocketrod » Fri Aug 29, 2014 7:12 pm
Dave does come out on the Sunday ride around the lake, it is a club recovery ride so the pace can be mellow or quick depending who comes out to play!
The club races on sat at the moment at 2pm from don's farm, at the end of Avondale rd. A pack leaves figtree cellars at 1pm to go down to the race and will go back after.
Sat rides in the morning are generally with people you know.
Once you get into the club scene and go out on some pack rides you will link up with people. Some groups can be a little bit closed but the majority are great.
Rod
- Derny Driver
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Re: FTP vs LTHR
Postby Derny Driver » Fri Aug 29, 2014 7:59 pm
I commented on a different thread last week about how cyclists are usually wary of new people joining in on their bunch rides. Riding in a bunch at high speeds requires a certain amount of trust in each other's ability. Once you join the club, you are insured, and wearing a SOTO shirt will bring immediate acceptance into most group rides.Rocketrod wrote:Jumma,
Some groups can be a little bit closed but the majority are great.
- Jumma
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Re: FTP vs LTHR
Postby Jumma » Sun Aug 31, 2014 3:35 pm
I have heard the term "no man's land", "happy hard training" and the like come up from time to time.
Now, as I understand it. NML is basically that range between 80-85% of your MHR. For someone putting in a lot of training hours it is apparently not effective to train in this range. I know I try to stay in L1/L2 for most of my road rides and do intervals at L4 and greater as planned. I try to avoid L3 in between any intervals. Though I do venture into L3 when the gradient goes up a bit. As I understand it and according to the rules of NML it is OK to spend a lot of time in the lower ranges of L3, as long as you dont spent a lot of time at the upper nd of L3 and lower range of L4.
Not sure what this equates to as a percentage of FTP as a range. However if my FTP is set at 260 watts then my typical Mt Keira climb intervals (normally 8-10 minutes (AT) 6% average) have me sitting right in this 80-85% of my MHR range on average for the whole time. During this time I also push an average 290 watts, which is well into my Z4 (VO2 Max). What range in % of FTP is this NML zone?? Because if I use my current FTP of 260 and I am sitting in 80-85% MHR or NML for every interval I do - is this effective training??
If I have a power range as a percentage of FTP that equates to NML - should I be avoiding this zone or power range?? Based on an FTP of 260 I think it may be something like 235 to 255 watts range.
Any thoughts??
As for the group rides and previous comments, yes, I understand the "trust" thing with new riders joining a group. I have ridden in groups before so do understand the etiquette, signals and responsibilities of riding front, mid and rear. I did ride this morning and did think to myself - I am getting a bit sick of riding solo all the time. It can be a lonely and boring gig at times.
Also, SOTO shirts are discounted at the moment, but I am not sure if this is because they are bringing out new designs? I will look into it.
Cheers
James
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Re: FTP vs LTHR
Postby Rocketrod » Sun Aug 31, 2014 6:20 pm
A quick search came up with this from freil-
-I think you must be getting me confused with someone else. I've never said one should never be in z3. For example, if racing a half IM that is typically done in z3. So to never train at that intensity would mean never preparing for the race. The peloton in a bike race moves along about z3 intensity, usually. There is a time for everything. Once you've established good aerobic fitness then it's time to move onto something else.
I almost always express the intensity of the cycling portions of my athletes' workouts in terms of power. But I realize that most readers of this blog don't have power meters (if you don't then you are missing out on the perhaps best thing to ever happen to bike training). That means training by heart rate which is much less precise but better than using a rating of perceived exertion (RPE). So below are the zones I use.
The power zones are from Allen and Coggan, Training and Racing With a Power Meter, and the heart rate zones are from my Training Bible books. Realize that they will not always produce the same RPE. For aerobically fit riders I typically find that HR zones are a bit more challenging (in terms of RPE) than power. In other wordes, riding in HR z3 will feel a bit more difficult than riding in power z3. That's not always the case, but very common. There's usually an overlap between the two. But all of this is highly dependent on the athlete and varies considerably from one to another.
Cycling Power zones as a percent of functional threshold power—FTP (Allen and Coggan)
Z1 <55% of FTP
Z2 56-75%
Z3 76-90%
Z4 91-105%
Z5 106-120%
Z6 121-150%
Cycling HR Zones as a percent of anaerobic threshold—ATHR (Friel)
Z1 <80% of ATHR
Z2 80-89%
Z3 90-93%
Z4 94-100%
Z5a 100-102%
Z5b 103-105%
Z5c >105%
I think the club has changed brands but design is the same.
- Jumma
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Re: FTP vs LTHR
Postby Jumma » Sun Aug 31, 2014 8:08 pm
It's all a bit confusing really!, so many different views on the subject.
I wonder what the difference in brands is? I might still pick up a current set at discount to start with. Can never have enough jerseys or bibs at that.
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- Strawburger
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Re: FTP vs LTHR
Postby Strawburger » Mon Sep 01, 2014 11:08 am
In reality, you should be training to the zones your racing demands.
Knowing my event's demands, I'm able to have more personal successful. Doing 1min intervals set me up to perform well to be able to sustain the many attacks, my 5min intervals got me over the climbs and l2-3 for the rolling hills. Fortunately I am pretty good at freewheeling too
- Xplora
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- Jumma
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Re: FTP vs LTHR
Postby Jumma » Mon Sep 01, 2014 1:36 pm
I do a bit of it like 2x15 (AT) 90-95 % FTP and 3x10 (AT) 95-100% FTP.
And that is what I thought - that racing pace sat in L3 tempo a lot.
I will keep doing what I am for now and add some VO2 max intervals in there also to help me prepare for attacks and short sprints.
Thanks
James
- Xplora
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Re: FTP vs LTHR
Postby Xplora » Mon Sep 01, 2014 4:54 pm
The aim of SST is to allow you to spend more time deep into the aerobic zone, doing 15 minute intervals instead of 5, and doing 4-6 of them, instead of 5 lots of 5. Your gains vs effort are supposed to be disproportionately high. If you have accidently overestimated FTP, your attempted SST interval in the top of the range will be SST, and if you're underestimated, you will be doing an FTP interval. Neither are terrible things.
The key issue is that doing 45-60 minutes a day at 100% FTP will diminish your will to live. Let alone ride. It is true suffering. If you overestimated FTP, doing it at 105% of your real FTP is even worse. But, you dial it back 10-12% and you can cope with much much more.
The SST stuff is a bit hazy IMO. I think it's based heavily on Hunter Allan and Andy Coggan's personal experiences, and they tend to preach a system where you mainly focus on FTP gains, as opposed to VO2Max or anaerobic efforts etc. NSW Road Champs were on this weekend, Elites rode 160kms for 4 hours. We just don't have the same kind of racing as the USA has, so that's worth bearing in mind too. If I was you, keep climbing that hill, see what happens.
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Re: FTP vs LTHR
Postby Strawburger » Mon Sep 01, 2014 7:31 pm
absolutely (for Xplora's entire post)!Xplora wrote:
The SST stuff is a bit hazy IMO. I think it's based heavily on Hunter Allan and Andy Coggan's personal experiences, and they tend to preach a system where you mainly focus on FTP gains, as opposed to VO2Max or anaerobic efforts etc. NSW Road Champs were on this weekend, Elites rode 160kms for 4 hours. We just don't have the same kind of racing as the USA has, so that's worth bearing in mind too. If I was you, keep climbing that hill, see what happens.
Off topic: did you ride out at kurrajong yesterday?
- Xplora
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Re: FTP vs LTHR
Postby Xplora » Mon Sep 01, 2014 7:44 pm
- Jumma
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Re: FTP vs LTHR
Postby Jumma » Mon Sep 01, 2014 8:49 pm
As for the long rides. I would love to do some 4hr plus rides at the 26-27 kph average but I need someone or a group to do them with. I couldn't see me doing 4 hours or more solo. One ride I would like to do is the gong to engadine, waterfall and back through the National Park.
Anyhow the weather has been great last couple days for riding. Bring on spring!
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- Xplora
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Re: FTP vs LTHR
Postby Xplora » Mon Sep 01, 2014 9:02 pm
- Alex Simmons/RST
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Re: FTP vs LTHR
Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Mon Sep 01, 2014 10:32 pm
SST is a concept, not an intensity.Xplora wrote:Just for the record, SST is 88-93%, so if you are sitting at 90% then you are right in the middle of it.
The aim of SST is to allow you to spend more time deep into the aerobic zone, doing 15 minute intervals instead of 5, and doing 4-6 of them, instead of 5 lots of 5. Your gains vs effort are supposed to be disproportionately high. If you have accidently overestimated FTP, your attempted SST interval in the top of the range will be SST, and if you're underestimated, you will be doing an FTP interval. Neither are terrible things.
The key issue is that doing 45-60 minutes a day at 100% FTP will diminish your will to live. Let alone ride. It is true suffering. If you overestimated FTP, doing it at 105% of your real FTP is even worse. But, you dial it back 10-12% and you can cope with much much more.
The SST stuff is a bit hazy IMO. I think it's based heavily on Hunter Allan and Andy Coggan's personal experiences, and they tend to preach a system where you mainly focus on FTP gains, as opposed to VO2Max or anaerobic efforts etc. NSW Road Champs were on this weekend, Elites rode 160kms for 4 hours. We just don't have the same kind of racing as the USA has, so that's worth bearing in mind too. If I was you, keep climbing that hill, see what happens.
And no, it's not based on Hunter and Andy's personal experiences. People have been doing this sort of training in many aerobic endurance sports (including cycling) for most of the past century. SST was just a means to help conveniently convey similar concepts to the power meter using cyclist.
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Re: FTP vs LTHR
Postby Xplora » Mon Sep 01, 2014 10:53 pm
The Friel book is much friendlier to the rider and the soul
- Derny Driver
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Re: FTP vs LTHR
Postby Derny Driver » Mon Sep 01, 2014 11:39 pm
There's better ones than that mate. I can think of 3 off the top of my head, starting at the Gong. Next time my son and nephew are doing a long one I'll let you know. I tag along on the scooter with the spares.Jumma wrote:
As for the long rides. I would love to do some 4hr plus rides at the 26-27 kph average but I need someone or a group to do them with. I couldn't see me doing 4 hours or more solo. One ride I would like to do is the gong to engadine, waterfall and back through the National Park.
k
- Jumma
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Re: FTP vs LTHR
Postby Jumma » Mon Sep 15, 2014 8:55 am
We did Gong to Minnamurra, across through Jamberoo, through the hills, Albion Park, West Dapto, Unanderra back for Diggies Coffee. Weather was awesome. We did OK I think considering we had done a 45 k run up to Coledale and back on the Saturday morning. Been logging about 200 km per week for the past few weeks and this week closer to 240.
Got my application for for Cycling Australia. Filled out, just need top pay and hand it in. I understand that if I pay now, this covers until January 2016? Is this correct? It is in the $200's to pay also?? Can anyone confirm please? Also, who do I get the money and form to? Can I fax and transfer money electronic?? BPay to pay my membership fees??
I think the first race I will be in will be the scratch race on 5 October???!?? Bit nervous about it, but like they say - face your fears
Anyhow, with this nice weather I haven't spent much time on the trainer, so not as targeted training, but I have ridden with a couple of groups who have all been friendly. I am happy I have now proven to myself I can hold a reasonable solo pace with some decent climbs for close to 100 km and still be able to walk the next day, so that is great, and no cramps - bonus!
If someone can put me straight on the payment and membership for ICC that would be great, thanks.
Thanks again.
James
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