3 speed IGH race bikes?

[ldrcycles]

An alternative shifting mechanism is to use a sturmey archer shifter on the downtube


Via mtbr. Reported to work just fine with a 3sp nexus hub. He used the lever from a thumb shifter but the downtube shifter should also work

Yea I've read that thread probably 4 times now , I could go with that but having looked through the bikes on Classic Lightweights (thanks a million to Clydesdale Scot for the tip on how to search that site) I reckon it will look a lot better to have the trigger next to the brake lever. Given it would have the same indexing points as the DT shifter you would hope it will work.

Thanks for that Richard, I still have the Sturmey that came with the bike which is a December 64 dated AW, it looks to be in pretty good nick. I've never worked on a Sturmey before and the tiny little threaded section frightened me off but after looking at Sheldon's article it sounds almost as simple as the Nexus. Time to compare the gearing possibilities .

[Clydesdale Scot]

I have a SA AW on a frankenbike operated with a toptube mounted SA Quadrant shifter. Many times when I stop, my leg hits the exposed cable, knocking it into neutral.
It makes for an interesting acceleration from the stop.

[ldrcycles]

I have a SA AW on a frankenbike operated with a toptube mounted SA Quadrant shifter. Many times when I stop, my leg hits the exposed cable, knocking it into neutral.
It makes for an interesting acceleration from the stop.

Ah definitely going for the shifter next to the brake now, that sounds like my experience with bumping a stem shifter with my knee while out of the saddle . Though at least I haven't got any scars left from that one .

[ldrcycles]

Turns out the original Sturmey hub is 40 hole . I have another AW on hand which is the more usual 36 hole but it was made in 1979 and the accepted wisdom on the web seems to be that SA quality went to hell in the early-mid 70s. After googling that to try and get a clearer picture I came across Jobst Brandt's vehement attacks on the AW as not being able to hold top gear in a hard sprint and that made my mind up, either I use the Nexus or get a new NIG Sturmey.

[Clydesdale Scot]

swap the old internals into the newer shell with the right spoke hole count.
Easily done, even for a novice like me.

[ldrcycles]

According to Brandt the issue is with the basic design regardless of age . I know this is just one person's comments but I've dropped out of top gear while out of the saddle once before (my fault, incorrectly assembled shifter + incorrect limit screw adjustment) and I REALLY want to avoid ever having that happen again, it hurt like hell. It's even got me contemplating using a 2 or 3 speed freewheel with wingnuts for manual gear changes, as much as I hate ever having to stop while riding.

I'll keep researching and thinking about that matter, but on another topic I have started work on reproducing the decals for my bike and i'm now deciding what paint scheme to go with. This is what remains of the original finish, which i'm not really keen on reproducing, particularly the ridiculous amount of pinstriping.




Having looked around a bit the best I've seen so far is this one



which would be a pretty easy job. I'm just curious as to what other paint jobs people really like that aren't TOO complicated?

[Clydesdale Scot]

According to Brandt the issue is with the basic design regardless of age . I know this is just one person's comments but I've dropped out of top gear while out of the saddle once before (my fault, incorrectly assembled shifter + incorrect limit screw adjustment) and I REALLY want to avoid ever having that happen again, it hurt like hell.

From a quick check I have just done, you need to be in top gear and out of the saddle, standing on the pedals for 50 metres on a hill or straight line sprint.
see this thread from 2000. Later references seem to omit some or all of these prerequisites for the going hub into neutral.
I don't use my SA AW equipped bike as a racer, it is an occasional Sunday rider.
I have my plastic bike for my out of the saddle sprints or cresting hills in top gear, and it has proper gears.

[ldrcycles]

Bingo, that's the thread I found. I do a lot of riding out of the saddle and i'm building this bike specifically for racing on a course which will see me smashing the pedals with everything I've got.

[WyvernRH]

Bingo, that's the thread I found. I do a lot of riding out of the saddle and i'm building this bike specifically for racing on a course which will see me smashing the pedals with everything I've got.

While I greatly respect Jobst as an engineer he can and does get a bee in in his bonnet about certain things and should be read with this in mind. A long discussion back in the day about advisability of greasing crank/axle tapers comes to mind.
I have toured extensively with an AW and FW back in the 70's and while I can't claim any flat out up-hill sprints I certainly had no problems with gear slipping when it was properly adjusted. That last bit is vital, Jobst poo-poos this as an excuse but if the gear is adjusted correctly and not run in the 'half-out' position the wear does not occur. Doesn't help you with a second hand hub I know.
Re the 333 Shimano gear, although much more tolerant of poor adjustment, don't totally rely on these either if you are going to give it heaps, I have seen a couple of these fail under load, one by failing totally into neutral and the other by locking solid (very dramatic!). Both caused by poor hardening of the parts and what seemed some pretty sloppy assembly when we looked at the remains.
An older Fichtel-Sachs 3 speed might be a better second hand bet?

PS, if you are thinking of handing out that sort of welly to the bike, I would have picked a different frame to start with?

Cheers
Richard

[ldrcycles]

While I greatly respect Jobst as an engineer he can and does get a bee in in his bonnet about certain things

PS, if you are thinking of handing out that sort of welly to the bike, I would have picked a different frame to start with?

Yes I had already come to that conclusion, from what I have read he seems to be rather like me, holding a few VERY passionate and decidedly unusual preferences . I see you mentioned 333 Shimano hubs, reading SB's page on Shimano hubs they were apparently poor quality and not comparable to the much newer Nexus hubs, which is what I have. Or were the failures you described on Nexus hubs?

With exactly 1 month until the race I am building the bike for, and with my growing uncertainty over the IGHs i'm leaning more towards using the flip flop wheelset off my Tom Wallace and changing gears the hard way.

As for the frame, ideally I would have picked something different too, but it was free and beggars can't be choosers . Importantly it fits me quite well and rides nicely as a fixed gear, I think it will do a good job.

[WyvernRH]

. I see you mentioned 333 Shimano hubs, reading SB's page on Shimano hubs they were apparently poor quality and not comparable to the much newer Nexus hubs, which is what I have. Or were the failures you described on Nexus hubs?

Ah my bad, the failures were on 333 hubs not Nexus.
As we were talking period stuff I got confuzzed as Nexus didn't appear til the 90's IIRC?
No experience with them except setting up an 8-speed on a Moulton which( as I haven't seen it again) must be working well
Cheers
Richard

[ldrcycles]

The Nexus I have on hand is dated 2004, so not retro or period at all . Where the 8 and 11 speed hubs have a big Q shaped thing on the side the 3 speeds have a "bellcrank" with a little window with 2 lines on it, adjust the pushrod to be between those lines in 2nd gear and you're away, it's an absolute doddle. So far the only problems I've been able to find reported for the Nexus 3 are a couple of instances of the hub not wanting to shift into 1st, which wouldn't really bother me much .

[ldrcycles]

Well now she's almost finished it's time for me to show off my 3 speed race bike .






Still needs the decals to be done properly, twine on the bar tape and the shifter bolted on (the standard one wouldn't fit once the bar tape was on), but still did a beautiful job on her maiden race.

I will need to do some research/experimenting though, as while the Sturmey-Archer shifter is workable with the Nexus, it's far from ideal. With the 2nd gear set up correctly, 1st has the cable completely slack and flapping in the breeze, while 3rd is a bit too tight to hold properly. The problem is that the steps in the shifter (1st to 2nd is short, 2nd to 3rd is long) are the opposite to the hub. It still shifted and pedalled exceptionally well, and I really enjoyed that glorious rolling click of the idle gears while pedalling in top .

[ldrcycles]

Finally got around to swapping the Nexus for a Sturmey AW so now the shifting is perfect .

Note- the saddle in the pic is just temporary, for long rides it will have my SMP and for <100km rides the Brooks B17.

[landyacht]

given all this discussion, would all this mean that i would be accepted in society if I put a 3 spd SA onto my 47 Swansea frame. Im struggling to find a rear end solution that wont be frowned upon if beverley /york happens again and it has HILLS

[Clydesdale Scot]

given all this discussion, would all this mean that I would be accepted in society if I put a 3 spd SA onto my 47 Swansea frame. Im struggling to find a rear end solution that won't be frowned upon if beverley /york happens again and it has HILLS

It was regularly used method in England; many in the 'cycling establishment' preferred the SA hub gears to the 'continental' derailleurs. More about it in The Dancing Chain.
H.H. England, the author of the Cycling Manual (22nd Edition) in the chapter on Variable Gearing, fully discusses the internal geared hubs before referring to the British built derailleurs then he mentions the derailleurs from the 'continent'.
Hugo's wonderful component database used for the Readers Bikes on Classic Lightweights provides supporting evidence.
You will see that whilst many chose the non-freewheel versions, or the medium range rather than the wide range, the SA hub was not frowned upon.
As a bonus, it becomes a discussion point for riders of today to understand the history of bike racing.
The listing of bike brands in the Readers Bikes using SA gears is the top shelf of British marques.


It can look as clean and well presented as ldrcycles bike above.
Historically accurate for a racing bike from the 1940s. My vote is yes.

[WyvernRH]

+1
See the pictures of my Holdsworth on the first page of this thread
Richard

[Thoglette]

I have toured extensively with an AW and FW back in the 70's and while I can't claim any flat out up-hill sprints I certainly had no problems with gear slipping when it was properly adjusted. That last bit is vital, Jobst poo-poos this as an excuse but if the gear is adjusted correctly and not run in the 'half-out' position the wear does not occur. Doesn't help you with a second hand hub I know.

Jobst points out that unless you are standing while heavily loading the drivetrain you will NEVER notice this problem. So your data is IRRELEVANT

Let me remind you - He managed to (re)create the problem with a completely new, slack cabled hub.

(http://yarchive.net/bike/sturmey_archer_hubs.html)

[WyvernRH]

Jobst points out that unless you are standing while heavily loading the drivetrain you will NEVER notice this problem. So your data is IRRELEVANT

Shouting....
Its a long time ago but I can remember sprinting for the speed limit signs a few times on AM and FM gears and I've done a couple of time trials (not hilly) on a loan bike using an FC.
Does that count?

Richard

[ldrcycles]

It can look as clean and well presented as ldrcycles bike above.

Thank you!

For that reason alone i'm determined to persist, but my ride this morning reminded me of the limitations of 3 speeds. Riding into a headwind, 2nd was far too short and top was too tall. Then there was the issue of top gear letting go at completely random intervals for some unknown reason, but the SunRace made AWs have no neutral so problem solved there.

But hey if you just wanted to go fast you'd be on some flashy new plastic thing wouldn't you?

[Thoglette]

Does that count?

You tell me - the conditions necessary for wiggling out of gear are generally (if not exactly) specified by Jobst - at least 50M at axle-bending loads, in top gear, at speed. Out of the saddle - in the saddle you'll notice a "clunk", apparently.

I had a think about this on the ride in this morning and tried to work out what would be needed to demonstrate this effect.

A rolling road and a 1kW electric motor might be adequate, presuming the mechanism doesn't require the varying power input of a cyclist. It shouldn't.

I know that I've never gotten my AW-equipped bike anywhere near this condition - the only time I've done out of the saddle sprint finishes is on a derailleur equipped bike. And I'm not in any hurry to "discover" this effect.

Shouting....

Guilty as charged, y'honour.

[WyvernRH]

Does that count?

You tell me -

Probably not, never was an Mercx clone but I was a top class rugby union forward so I did develop some oomph to the pedals at low revs

And I'm not in any hurry to "discover" this effect.

Right with you there...

Richard

[Clydesdale Scot]

But hey if you just wanted to go fast you'd be on some flashy new plastic thing wouldn't you?

yes
https://vimeo.com/124131189