Why don't you use Shimano SPD?

swaz
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Why don't you use Shimano SPD?

Postby swaz » Mon Aug 01, 2016 6:32 am

After 3 years riding MTB's (after a LOT of years riding with Look and Shimano SPD SL type shoes, cleats and pedals I am wondering why more people don't ride with the MTB type SPD? Maybe it's just me but I find them easier to clip into and the medals are double sided. Excluding Speedplay of course :)

For reference:
SPD-SL
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SPD
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grantw
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Re: Why don't you use Shimano SPD?

Postby grantw » Mon Aug 01, 2016 7:19 am

For me a look/SPD SL cleat is larger and has more area to spread the load - I find this particularly noticeable with my crappy feet - and then there's shoe range - road oriented shoes are rare on SPD. Having said that I run spd on my tourer and MTB.
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Nobody
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Re: Why don't you use Shimano SPD?

Postby Nobody » Mon Aug 01, 2016 8:37 am

I have a knee issue which responds reasonably well to a specific setup afforded by Speedplay Zero pedals. To get the same approximate float with the SPDs (used on the wet bike) requires the spring tension to be quite light. This makes the pedal system feel vertically quite sloppy when I'm out of the saddle and (occasionally) pulling up on the pedals, to the point of making clicking noises. Even then Speedplay still appears to be better for that knee. I used SPD-SL for some time, but retired them as I didn't like the limited tune-ability of the float and they were hard to click in and out. Not that the Speedplays are easy as I'm about 66 kg.
Last edited by Nobody on Mon Aug 01, 2016 8:40 am, edited 1 time in total.

richbee
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Re: Why don't you use Shimano SPD?

Postby richbee » Mon Aug 01, 2016 8:38 am

Because the the $himaNO mtb pedals you've shown concentrate pressure into very small area which gets very uncomfortable very quickly, and unbearable on a longer ride. Road pedals have a larger contact area, and hence a greater distribution of the pressure leading to a more comfortable ride.
Even $himaNO have recognised this issue in their mtb pedals and offer a good number of platform type pedals which allow for a greater distribution of the pedal pressures. Their PD-M530, M424, M9020, PD-M545, and a few others in their range are thusly equipped, as well as a few cyclo-tourist type pedals.

Then naturally there's the aesthetics and weight. The Look Keo2 Blade design is a thing of beauty and with a weight of a mere 86g makes even the lightest of the $himaNO offerings look and feel like boat anchors.

But that's just my opinion :twisted:

swaz
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Re: Why don't you use Shimano SPD?

Postby swaz » Mon Aug 01, 2016 8:43 am

richbee wrote: Road pedals have a larger contact area


I would imagine that given the stiffness of even the most basic road shoe that this is a moot point being that the 'load' would be spread evenly out across the sole. Not saying I am right and I am interested in opinions.

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Re: Why don't you use Shimano SPD?

Postby trailgumby » Mon Aug 01, 2016 9:09 am

richbee wrote:Because the the $himaNO mtb pedals you've shown concentrate pressure into very small area which gets very uncomfortable very quickly, and unbearable on a longer ride.

Only with cheap shoes with flexy soles. :twisted: Not a problem with decent carbon soles.

I found SPD-SL pedals were just dangerous in traffic. Too hard to get into - if you missed hooking your cleat in, you were stuck with your foot on top of a slippery pedal and it very easily slipped off and did a digger into the pavement. Not good for your ankles, and going OTB in front of a tailgating bus is not the way I want to make the evening news. Either that, or it was multiple digs at the pedal, and with the stress of that grumpy cabbie on your six it was just messy.

At first I thought it was just me, but then I noticed that a sizable number of experienced road riders have exactly the same experience taking off from traffic lights.

And then there was the impact on my knees. The friction in the float action made them very sore.

So purely for fashion reasons (to reduce my Fredness) I have gone with Speedplay Zeros. I've recently modified the springs to make getting in and out easier, but I'm about to go back to the stock springs as my knees are coming back to normal with stretching, and rolling my ITB.

Nobody wrote:I have a knee issue which responds reasonably well to a specific setup afforded by Speedplay Zero pedals. To get the same approximate float with the SPDs (used on the wet bike) requires the spring tension to be quite light....

@nobody, for MTB have you had a look at the new Speedplay Syzr?

swaz
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Re: Why don't you use Shimano SPD?

Postby swaz » Mon Aug 01, 2016 9:15 am

trailgumby wrote:
richbee wrote:Because the the $himaNO mtb pedals you've shown concentrate pressure into very small area which gets very uncomfortable very quickly, and unbearable on a longer ride.

Only with cheap shoes with flexy soles. :twisted: Not a problem with decent carbon soles.

I found SPD-SL pedals were just dangerous in traffic. Too hard to get into - if you missed hooking your cleat in, you were stuck with your foot on top of a slippery pedal and it very easily slipped off and did a digger into the pavement. Not good for your ankles, and going OTB in front of a tailgating bus is not the way I want to make the evening news. Either that, or it was multiple digs at the pedal, and with the stress of that grumpy cabbie on your six it was just messy.



Ok glad I am not the only one. I have some basic SPD on my SS and I hadn't noticed how easily it is to clip into them until trying to clip into SPD SL pedals yesterday. Put foot on pedal & press down.

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Re: Why don't you use Shimano SPD?

Postby human909 » Mon Aug 01, 2016 9:26 am

trailgumby wrote:Only with cheap shoes with flexy soles. :twisted: Not a problem with decent carbon soles.


Exactly. The nonsense about smaller contact area doesn't make sense unless you have terrible shoes. Afterall the contact area is focussed back onto the small pedal spindle anyway.

(I have reasonably cheapish shimano shoes with non carbon soles even then I don't notice any pressure hot spots. (Not doubt they are plenty heavier shoes than road shoes or carbon sole shoes though.)

trailgumby wrote:At first I thought it was just me, but then I noticed that a sizable number of experienced road riders have exactly the same experience taking off from traffic lights.

That's what I've noticed. Whereas with SPD I simple step on the pedal and go. The majority of the time they simply click in, some of the time I need to try a little but I only bother with that once I'm up to speed and clear of the intersection and interfering traffic.

(That said I'm mostly on flats now riding in the shoes I'm wearing at my destination.)
Last edited by human909 on Mon Aug 01, 2016 9:30 am, edited 1 time in total.

X-ray
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Re: Why don't you use Shimano SPD?

Postby X-ray » Mon Aug 01, 2016 9:30 am

swaz wrote:
richbee wrote: Road pedals have a larger contact area


I would imagine that given the stiffness of even the most basic road shoe that this is a moot point being that the 'load' would be spread evenly out across the sole. Not saying I am right and I am interested in opinions.


Most SPD pedals have a wide base - some wider than road shoes. Just look at the touring range.

I switched to SPD five or so years ago and have never looked back. I find them more comfortable that road shoes on and off the bike.

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kb
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Re: Why don't you use Shimano SPD?

Postby kb » Mon Aug 01, 2016 9:40 am

human909 wrote:
trailgumby wrote:Only with cheap shoes with flexy soles. :twisted: Not a problem with decent carbon soles.


Exactly. The nonsense about smaller contact area doesn't make sense unless you have terrible shoes. Afterall the contact area is focussed back onto the small pedal spindle anyway.

(I have reasonably cheapish shimano shoes with non carbon soles even then I don't notice any pressure hot spots. (Not doubt they are plenty heavier shoes than road shoes or carbon sole shoes though.)

I agree, better to talk about experiences than guess causes. Of course, my experience is hot foot after a couple of hours on SPDs and after around 12 hours on my Look pedals. Much nicer (smoother) float on the Looks too. Can't say clipping in is a problem but clipping out can be if I've walked in a muddy environment. The major downside is needing another pair of shoes for most commuting situations.
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Re: Why don't you use Shimano SPD?

Postby richbee » Mon Aug 01, 2016 9:54 am

trailgumby wrote:Only with cheap shoes with flexy soles. :twisted: Not a problem with decent carbon soles.

Nope, it's to do with the force applied against the area on which the force acts. The stiffer road soles do allow for a greater transfer of power from foot to pedal than a more flexible sole, but the force is still acting on a concentrated area the pressure is still there, and will be felt. Even with the stiffest of soles the pressure cannot be distributed at a greater than 45 degree angle. What the stiffer sole does do however is allow the manufacturers to make them thinner and hence lighter.

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Re: Why don't you use Shimano SPD?

Postby eeksll » Mon Aug 01, 2016 10:23 am

Spd have vertical play as well as side to side rock. As best as I can tell, wearing out the soles of my shoes heavily contributes to this.

The platforms, when they work did help for stability, but messes with free float.

I'd really like to try the speedplay syzr for commuting, but very pricey, also I do spin class quite often which are spd compatible.

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Re: Why don't you use Shimano SPD?

Postby BJL » Mon Aug 01, 2016 10:24 am

richbee wrote:
trailgumby wrote:Only with cheap shoes with flexy soles. :twisted: Not a problem with decent carbon soles.

Nope, it's to do with the force applied against the area on which the force acts. The stiffer road soles do allow for a greater transfer of power from foot to pedal than a more flexible sole, but the force is still acting on a concentrated area the pressure is still there, and will be felt. Even with the stiffest of soles the pressure cannot be distributed at a greater than 45 degree angle. What the stiffer sole does do however is allow the manufacturers to make them thinner and hence lighter.


Not sure I buy this argument about force being applied to different sized areas. There are non Shimano road shoes and cleats with small contact points too but many people still use them. What was Froome using that was incompatible with the neutral service bike? And what is the actual proven difference anyway? Most wouldn't even notice.

BTW, I only use SPD on my road bike because I got a hybrid first and at the time, was given a pair of old SPD pedals from a mate. When I got my road bike, I just used SPD pedals so I could use the same shoes and save a few dollars. Other than that, I'm fine on long rides (200kms+). My butt gets sore long before my feet do. SPD shoes are also good off the bike. I laugh at my friends trying to walk around in SPD SL shoes. Specially one day at Mt Donna Buang climbing the lookout tower with its steel steps. :mrgreen:

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Re: Why don't you use Shimano SPD?

Postby g-boaf » Mon Aug 01, 2016 10:31 am

richbee wrote:Because the the $himaNO mtb pedals you've shown concentrate pressure into very small area which gets very uncomfortable very quickly, and unbearable on a longer ride.


Are the soles of your shoes broken? Road shoes with carbon soles don't flex much at all. If they do, it is a tiny, tiny amount and basically non-existant for all intents and purposes.

With carbon sole shoes and proper inserts in the shoes, the pressure is distributed quite evenly, at least from what I can feel.
Last edited by g-boaf on Mon Aug 01, 2016 10:40 am, edited 1 time in total.

human909
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Re: Why don't you use Shimano SPD?

Postby human909 » Mon Aug 01, 2016 10:37 am

richbee wrote:Nope, it's to do with the force applied against the area on which the force acts. The stiffer road soles do allow for a greater transfer of power from foot to pedal than a more flexible sole, but the force is still acting on a concentrated area the pressure is still there, and will be felt.

So how does this logic work when all the pedal pressure goes through the spindle of the pedal? Also I like the way you conflate stiffness with power yet suggest it has less effect on force. The reality is the opposite. Do you even know the definition of these terms?

richbee wrote:Even with the stiffest of soles the pressure cannot be distributed at a greater than 45 degree angle. What the stiffer sole does do however is allow the manufacturers to make them thinner and hence lighter.

This is 100% false. It is not in accordance with fundamental physics and engineering.

If you were right then it is a puzzle how every beam in buildings and structures other across the world work. In fact how do you suppose pedals transfer their load to the cranks?


Maybe there are some cyclist out there with sensitive feet but all this stuff about pressure hot spots on your feet from SPDs seem more like bunk from people who want to disparage SPDs.... There are advantages to each, but please stop rewriting basic laws of physics to support your own biases.

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Re: Why don't you use Shimano SPD?

Postby Nobody » Mon Aug 01, 2016 10:48 am

trailgumby wrote:@Nobody, for MTB have you had a look at the new Speedplay Syzr?

Good idea, but from what I've read of the reviews so far, I'm not convinced they are worth the cost. From memory one of their biggest problems is the non-centering of the mechanism when you go to clip in. For the wet bike, I'll probably just get another set of Zero pedals if I upgrade. Although Zero mechanisms have the problem of not releasing if they get dirt in it, or they aren't lubed well.

I've also had the problem you describe of sliding along the road on my SL cleat because I missed the pedal. Soon after that I got the Zeros. The SLs were just too dangerous for me in a city environment. Having said that, I've missed the pedal on the Zeros too. Must be unco at times. :oops:

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Re: Why don't you use Shimano SPD?

Postby trailgumby » Mon Aug 01, 2016 11:00 am

human909 wrote:
richbee wrote:Even with the stiffest of soles the pressure cannot be distributed at a greater than 45 degree angle. What the stiffer sole does do however is allow the manufacturers to make them thinner and hence lighter.

This is 100% false. It is not in accordance with fundamental physics and engineering.

If you were right then it is a puzzle how every beam in buildings and structures other across the world work. In fact how do you suppose pedals transfer their load to the cranks?

Sorry, rich, human is right. Following your logic to its conclusion, down through the layers of carbon sole, pedal interface, pedal structure and bearing to the pedal axle, it would be the diameter of the pedal axle that matters most for getting hotspots, and it doesn't.

If the shoe's sole is stiff enough, the size of the interface with the pedal is irrelevant. What matters most then is how closely the inner sole fits the structure of the user's foot. If you have stiff carbon soles and you're still getting hotspots you need to go visit a cycling podiatrist and get some decent insoles fitted up.

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Re: Why don't you use Shimano SPD?

Postby trailgumby » Mon Aug 01, 2016 11:07 am

Nobody wrote:As an aside, I don't do a lot of MTB anymore. As I get closer to 50 yo, I'm getting more worried about injuries and the complications of tick bites.
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I understand. I'm still riding a lot of MTB, but I'm more conservative than I used to be, and the 29er gives me a wider margin for error anyway. The offs are generally at lower speed so I don;t get hurt as much and there are no cars or trucks to worry about, whereas road crashes are a lot more severe.

I hear you on tick bites. I picked up my first earlier this year, but I was on foot doing trail maintenance, not riding. Generally, on a bike you're up above the height where ticks and nymphs typically sit to wait for a ride.

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Re: Why don't you use Shimano SPD?

Postby ball bearing » Mon Aug 01, 2016 11:08 am

The new carbon 105 pedals are far more clip in friendly, in my experience. The old metal version would hang at a very awkward angle.

I do have one road bike set up with SPD and flat bars for family rides. Otherwise I prefer SPD-SL for road cycling.

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Re: Why don't you use Shimano SPD?

Postby Comedian » Mon Aug 01, 2016 11:10 am

I don't like the whole shimano wear out throw away thing so I use double sided speedplays. You have to grease them occasionally - but I'm still using the same pedals 5 years on and should I need parts I can get them.

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Re: Why don't you use Shimano SPD?

Postby Nobody » Mon Aug 01, 2016 11:16 am

richbee wrote:
trailgumby wrote:Only with cheap shoes with flexy soles. :twisted: Not a problem with decent carbon soles.

Nope, it's to do with the force applied against the area on which the force acts...

Your weight may be a factor in the flex of the shoe sole around a smaller cleat. So how much do you weigh and what size shoes do you wear?

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Re: Why don't you use Shimano SPD?

Postby g-boaf » Mon Aug 01, 2016 12:27 pm

ball bearing wrote:The new carbon 105 pedals are far more clip in friendly, in my experience. The old metal version would hang at a very awkward angle.

I do have one road bike set up with SPD and flat bars for family rides. Otherwise I prefer SPD-SL for road cycling.


I think they are all pretty friendly to use. I've used the old 105 pedals, ultegra, ultegra carbon and Dura Ace pedals, they are all fine. At the moment I'm on Dura Ace carbon pedals. The trick with SPD-SL is to get one foot clipped in, get some speed built up and then worry about the other foot if it didn't clip in immediately.

The only other thing that can throw things off is dirty cleats or worn out cleats which are always reluctant to clip in.

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Re: Why don't you use Shimano SPD?

Postby mikgit » Mon Aug 01, 2016 12:41 pm

Comedian wrote:I don't like the whole shimano wear out throw away thing so I use double sided speedplays. You have to grease them occasionally - but I'm still using the same pedals 5 years on and should I need parts I can get them.


Whaat? I still regularly use my shimano 636's and 959's that are like 15-20 years old and still work fine. Got some XT pedals that are 4 years old without an issue and some xtr pedals that are over a year old and still work like new. and maintenance for me is wash with hose and then maybe some wd40 to wash any other gunk out... maybe the odd squirt with chain lube if Im feeling generous, which I'm usually not.

I was using my XT pedals on my road bike that I nicked of an old mtb for a few years till I bought my Look and it came with Look pedals, so I bought the same version of my mtb shoe in a road shoe (Sidi Eagle 6 -> Genius 6) and I couldn't tell the difference between them on the bike, the spd cleat is just like the Look cleat, until I'm unclipped. I do find at a traffic light start with spd's I might maybe munt a clip in 1/10 times if that, but with the Look pedal, it probably 2/3 times I stuff it up, but I think thats more me than the pedal.
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Re: Why don't you use Shimano SPD?

Postby Trevtassie » Mon Aug 01, 2016 12:42 pm

richbee wrote:
trailgumby wrote:Only with cheap shoes with flexy soles. :twisted: Not a problem with decent carbon soles.

Nope, it's to do with the force applied against the area on which the force acts. The stiffer road soles do allow for a greater transfer of power from foot to pedal than a more flexible sole, but the force is still acting on a concentrated area the pressure is still there, and will be felt. Even with the stiffest of soles the pressure cannot be distributed at a greater than 45 degree angle. What the stiffer sole does do however is allow the manufacturers to make them thinner and hence lighter.

Really, 45 degrees? Best you go google some basic engineering principles. Here's a hint... Bridges don't have the piers spaced so the force vectors are at 45 degrees

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Re: Why don't you use Shimano SPD?

Postby richbee » Mon Aug 01, 2016 1:06 pm

Trevtassie wrote:Really, 45 degrees? Best you go google some basic engineering principles. Here's a hint... Bridges don't have the piers spaced so the force vectors are at 45 degrees

Wow, what an amazing deduction, from somebody who clearly has no idea of the principles of bridge, or any structural design for that matter. How about you go google the difference between shear stress and bending moments and enlighten yourself as to how bridges and structural members are actually designed. Then when you understand the difference between force, pressure and stress, come back and talk from a position of knowledge not ignorance.
Or better yet, go do a four year degree in engineering, choose between civil, structural or mechanical, they all have the same foundation, then follow it up with 30 years experience in the field, before making such ill informed and inflammatory statements and suggestions.
You think I'm rewriting the laws of physics to suit my personal views, how about maybe you go get an understanding of the laws of physics, then we can talk.

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