New For 2017

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Duck!
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Re: New For 2017

Postby Duck! » Fri Oct 21, 2016 4:07 pm

Nothing new there; Shadow derailleurs in "9-sp." form have always been compatible with road gear, including 10-sp, since their inception 10 years ago. 10 & 11-sp. MTB derailleurs are restricted to their own families.

Fairly sure I mentioned in the compatibility notes a while ago that R3000 remains compatible with existing 9-sp. systems. ;-)
I had a thought, but it got run over as it crossed my mind.

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Re: New For 2017

Postby metalrideroz » Fri Jan 20, 2017 9:54 pm

Is there a Deore M615 groupset replacement due soon?

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Re: New For 2017

Postby Duck! » Sat Jan 21, 2017 12:03 pm

The new Deore groupset is due in the middle of this year for 2018 model year.

I don't know yet whether it will be M6000 or M5000, following the new sequencing introduced with M9000 XTR & M4000 Alivio (the step below Deore) a few years ago, because there's an extra gap in the sequence between M7000 SLX and Alivio!
I had a thought, but it got run over as it crossed my mind.

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Re: New For 2017

Postby metalrideroz » Tue Jan 24, 2017 11:16 am

Duck! wrote:The new Deore groupset is due in the middle of this year for 2018 model year.

I don't know yet whether it will be M6000 or M5000, following the new sequencing introduced with M9000 XTR & M4000 Alivio (the step below Deore) a few years ago, because there's an extra gap in the sequence between M7000 SLX and Alivio!


Thankyou for the information.

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Re: New For 2017

Postby Duck! » Thu Mar 16, 2017 2:37 pm

An update for existing 9070 Dura-Ace/6870 Ultegra Di2 riders, the Synchro shift function is now available for those older groups. It does require a new internal battery (BT-DN110) or external battery mount (BM-DN100) in order to make it work though. Once the appropriate bit of hardware is fitted it's just a matter of plugging into E-Tube to update the rest. I'm not sure if it's available for 6770 10-sp. Ultegra though.
I had a thought, but it got run over as it crossed my mind.

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Re: New For 2017

Postby Duck! » Tue May 09, 2017 8:12 pm

metalrideroz wrote:
Duck! wrote:The new Deore groupset is due in the middle of this year for 2018 model year.

I don't know yet whether it will be M6000 or M5000, following the new sequencing introduced with M9000 XTR & M4000 Alivio (the step below Deore) a few years ago, because there's an extra gap in the sequence between M7000 SLX and Alivio!


Thankyou for the information.

UPDATE: Just poking around the Shimano tech docs, details are up for the new M6000 Deore specifications. It remains built around a 10-sp. cassette, with 2x & 3x configurations available. The cassette options have been extended to include an 11-42 for 2x, with derailleur capacity limiting the 3x to a 36T, consistent with the current set. Brakes are evolutionary, and expected to be similar to the M8000 XT & M7000 SLX units. At present I have not seen any photos of the new groupset.
I had a thought, but it got run over as it crossed my mind.

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Re: New For 2017

Postby metalrideroz » Mon May 15, 2017 11:30 am

Duck! wrote:UPDATE: Just poking around the Shimano tech docs, details are up for the new M6000 Deore specifications. It remains built around a 10-sp. cassette, with 2x & 3x configurations available. The cassette options have been extended to include an 11-42 for 2x, with derailleur capacity limiting the 3x to a 36T, consistent with the current set. Brakes are evolutionary, and expected to be similar to the M8000 XT & M7000 SLX units. At present I have not seen any photos of the new groupset.


Photos/spec here, http://ns40.thaimtb.com/forum/viewtopic ... p=13319275 .

All front mechs are now side swing which was probably expected. I think it looks better than the previous series, simple and dutiful. Was hoping to go back to a triple on the front but not sure how well the new smaller chainrings will match up to 26 inch wheels.

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Re: New For 2017 - Now With 2018 Stuff

Postby Duck! » Sat Jun 24, 2017 9:06 pm

It's New Stuff time of year again!

As discussed in the General area with its own thread, the main thing this year is R8000 Ultegra for the road, and the mid-level M6000 Deore groupset for the dirt.

Ultegra is discussed in detail in that other thread, so I'll just brush over it here; not surprisingly, as they've been doing for several decades now, the overall design draws very heavily from R9100 Dura-Ace, released last year. It stays 11-sp, and retains full compatibility with existing 11-sp. groups. Probably the biggest thing with it, as with Dura-ace, is that it now includes hydraulic disc brakes in the groupset, rather than the "non-series" models of the last few years. Gearing range is further extended by the addition of a 34T low gear capacity, the cassette for which is actially a non-series model, HG800, rather than a proper groupset inclusion. That's 'cos it's a bit funky, in that like Shimano's MTB 11-sp. cassettes, the back of it is dished so it fits on a 8/9/10-sp. hub. It includes the spacer necessary to fit it to a road 11-sp. hub.

Deore carries a lot of its design down from M9000 XTR, M8000 XT and M7000 SLX, but remains 10-sp, in - factory spec at least - 2x & 3x configurations. However, rear derailleur geometry has been tweaked to now fit a 42T cassette, up from the 36T of older 10-sp. systems. As expected at this level, changes are evolutionary, rather than drastic.

In other new bits, the entry-level road groupset Claris has its turn for an update, with the R2000 series marking the final step of trickle-down from the 9000-derived family. The shifters have a strong family resemblance, including hidden cables for the first time at this level, but remain 8-sp. The cranks also finally joins the two-piece, external bearing/press-fit bottom bracket family. 105 gets a new front derailleur - FD-5801 - taking the compact design from R9100 & R8000 which offers much better clearance for wide tyres. There's a few new wheels, but not much else on the road. On the dirt the low-lying Altus group gets a go-over to the M2000 series and getting a Shadow type rear derailleur as first seen on XTR & XT a decade ago. M4000 Alivio and M3000 Acera get some new crank options with wider-offset chainrings for "Boost" applications, SLX gets an 11-46 cassette, and there are Boost versions of the XT wheels & hubs.
I had a thought, but it got run over as it crossed my mind.

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Re: New For 2017

Postby biker jk » Thu Jul 06, 2017 2:23 pm

Does anyone know if Dura Ace 9100 can accommodate an 11-32 cassette?

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Re: New For 2017

Postby CycloTron » Thu Jul 06, 2017 2:29 pm

biker jk wrote:Does anyone know if Dura Ace 9100 can accommodate an 11-32 cassette?


I'm no expert but I think max sprocket may be 30T.

You may need to wait for R8000 GS cage, possibly.

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Re: New For 2017

Postby biker jk » Thu Jul 06, 2017 2:46 pm

CycloTron wrote:
biker jk wrote:Does anyone know if Dura Ace 9100 can accommodate an 11-32 cassette?


I'm no expert but I think max sprocket may be 30T.

You may need to wait for R8000 GS cage, possibly.


That's what Shimano suggests but I've heard that 11-32 may be possible. As an example, see Chris Froome's bike. I think the issue will be chain wrap since I was planning 50-34 and 11-32. Froome has 52-38 and 11-32.

Hopefully Duck will be along to set me straight.


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Re: New For 2017

Postby Duck! » Thu Jul 06, 2017 7:01 pm

Officially the R9100 is limited to 30T. Also officially, the R8000 short is limited to 30T, and the long goes up to 34; supposedly this time they have different bodies with different travel curves to suit the different cassette ranges. But they said that about 6800 too, and I know for an absolute fact that the short 6800 WILL handle the 32T and cover the full gear range, but it does get close to its limit on big-big cross-chaining.

I have not yet had a chance to play with either of the new models, so I can't add any real-world experience at this stage to see if they can be pushed beyond the official specs. My suspicion is that that the short R8000 will be OK with the 32, and maybe the 34 with either a 36-46 or 39-53 chainring combo, but 34 with either 34-50 or 36-52 will exceed the chain wrap due to the bigger chainring jump. R9100 I'm not sure about; tolerances on Dura-Ace typically tend to be a bit tighter and closer to official specs than the lower groups.
I had a thought, but it got run over as it crossed my mind.

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Re: New For 2017

Postby MichaelB » Wed Jul 19, 2017 12:36 pm

Thought I'd share an off line conversation that Duck! and I have been having, that inadvertently provided a new lease on life for my 10sp MTB wheel that I had to buy when OS last year cruising around the Dolomites & Alps.

Background : My rear 11sp disc hub crapped out it's freehub bearings part way up the Passo Pordoi :evil: Descended back into town and managed to find a shop that was able to help. Result was that I needed to buy a MTB rear wheel (10sp) so that I could keep riding. One less cog was fine and trip completed.

End result is that I have a 10sp rear wheel hanging in the shed with nothing else to do :? Until the other day, plan was to machine an 11-32 cassette so that it would fit on, and be a 'steep day' rear wheel. But then Duck! came to the rescue :D :D :D

Seems the CS-HG800 cassette in 11-34 11sp will fit on the 10sp hubs. YAY. Below is a link to the CT article that confirms this.

Cassette is not available yet, but should be by end of August ?

Not sure if any of the other CS-8000 cassettes will do the same, but this at least means the rear wheel can be a steep day wheel and get some use :D

From here on Cycling Tips ; (relevant cut & paste with my highlighting ;

Gravel and adventure riders will note the distinct lack of smaller sub-compact or single-ring drivetrain options on Ultegra R8000, but Shimano has at least expanded the range of available 11-speed CS-R8000 rear cassette choices. These will include the more traditional road variants (11-25T, 12-25T, 11-28T, 14-28T), but also ones more specifically aimed at long and steep climbs (11-30T and 11-32T). In addition, there’s an extra-wide 11-34T option (CS-HG800) that will fit on Shimano/SRAM-compatible 10-speed freehub bodies, which will allow gravel and adventure riders the freedom to use mountain bike wheelsets and hubs.

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Re: New For 2017

Postby Duck! » Wed Jul 19, 2017 1:15 pm

MichaelB wrote:Not sure if any of the other CS-8000 cassettes will do the same....

No. The regular R8000 (25-32T large sprocket) cassettes retain the normal, wider road 11-sp. configuration, which is why the HG800 gets its own model code.
I had a thought, but it got run over as it crossed my mind.

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Re: New For 2017

Postby MichaelB » Wed Jul 19, 2017 2:16 pm

Thought so.

Still, the 11-34 version fills the gap nicely. Wonder if there will be other players do the same thing ?

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Re: New For 2017

Postby Duck! » Wed Jul 19, 2017 2:53 pm

MichaelB wrote:End result is that I have a 10sp rear wheel....


To get a bit picky, no you don't; what you have is a 8/9/10-sp. hub, not a true 10-sp. There's a fundamental difference between the two. This is a 10-sp. hub:
Image
The first thing that jumps out is the deeper spline, which only fits a few models of cassette; Shimano 7800/7900 Dura-Ace, 6600/6700 Ultegra and 5600/5700 105, and a very few third-party cassettes, SunRace and possibly BBB. Nothing else will fit. As well as the deeper spline, the freewheel body is also shorter than the standard 8/9/10-sp. pattern, which is why those cassettes require a 1mm spacer on anything other than a 10-sp. hub.

The 10-sp. pattern was only found on road wheels, primarily Shimano "groupset" wheelsts, plus early (approx. three out of the five-year model run) 7800 D-A stand-alone hubs. A few third-party wheel manufacturers adopted the design, but it was not widespread.
I had a thought, but it got run over as it crossed my mind.

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Re: New For 2017

Postby MichaelB » Thu Jul 20, 2017 9:01 am

Got it, thanks.

I've also seen it referred to as the deep spline 10sp.

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Re: New For 2017

Postby biker jk » Mon Aug 21, 2017 3:47 pm

Any comments on the front shifting performance of Ultegra R8000? In the review (below from 7:15) there's a complaint about shifting performance from the small to large chain ring.


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Re: New For 2017

Postby Duck! » Mon Aug 21, 2017 10:15 pm

I haven't yet had a play with either R9100 Dura-Ace or R8000 Ultegra, but hopefully soon.

Regarding the guy's assessment of the front shifting, I think he's looking at the wrong thing; it's not the fact that the big ring is hollow, because the 6800 ring is also hollow, but rather the small ring is further inboard than on previous generation and non-Shimano - as he refers to having tried a few times - cranks. The wider spacing could very well have some effect on the shifting. The second consideration is that he's using a KMC rather than Shimano chain. The differences in link shaping could be enough to just not quite catch the ramps properly. Plus he's using either a compact or mid-compact ring setup; the 16T jump is never going to be as smooth as a smaller ratio change.

I'll post my thoughts once I've had a proper play.
I had a thought, but it got run over as it crossed my mind.

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Re: New For 2017

Postby ball bearing » Tue Aug 22, 2017 9:31 am

Wow!



I just ordered an XT Shadow+ 8000 derailleur and a Tanpan to do the same thing.

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Re: New For 2017

Postby MichaelB » Wed Aug 23, 2017 12:43 pm

So is the new M-8020 4 pot 'XT' caliper just a repainted Zee ?

Image

Whilst it's not a real game changer, the key part for me is that they have seemingly confirmed that the levers work equally as well with the two piston & 4 piston calipers. Snip below from Bike Radar article

According to Shimano, the new M8020 brake offers 20-percent more power than the two-piston M8000 series version. We’re hopeful this addition will also provide a wider range of modulation, too.

The M8020 brake caliper is compatible with the existing XT M8000 brake lever.


Many people, including me, have been doing that for quite some time. :mrgreen:

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Re: New For 2017

Postby Duck! » Wed Aug 23, 2017 7:22 pm

MichaelB wrote:So is the new M-8020 4 pot 'XT' caliper just a repainted Zee ?

Looks decidedly like it. To be honest, given the existence of both Saint and Zee models, this seems completely pointless to me. Unless it's a subtle hint that one or both of those groupsets will be phased out at the end of their current model run with future generations to sit within the XT and SLX groups which they parallel - an idea that seems plausible given the lack of gaps in Shimano's new numbering sequence to fit new versions of those models (M5000 is the only hole left to fill in the sequence, fitting between Deore & Alivio, where there isn't a groupset gap).
I had a thought, but it got run over as it crossed my mind.

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Re: New For 2017

Postby MichaelB » Thu Aug 24, 2017 10:54 am

Or just a way to match calipers and groupset.

Makes the 2 or 4 pot bakes a factory endorsed option now.

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Re: New For 2017

Postby Duck! » Wed Sep 27, 2017 1:12 am

biker jk wrote:Any comments on the front shifting performance of Ultegra R8000? In the review (below from 7:15) there's a complaint about shifting performance from the small to large chain ring.

Duck! wrote:I haven't yet had a play with either R9100 Dura-Ace or R8000 Ultegra, but hopefully soon.

Regarding the guy's assessment of the front shifting, I think he's looking at the wrong thing; it's not the fact that the big ring is hollow, because the 6800 ring is also hollow (as was 6700 for that matter), but rather the small ring is further inboard than on previous generation and non-Shimano - as he refers to having tried a few times - cranks. The wider spacing could very well have some effect on the shifting. The second consideration is that he's using a KMC rather than Shimano chain. The differences in link shaping could be enough to just not quite catch the ramps properly. Plus he's using either a compact or mid-compact ring setup; the 16T jump is never going to be as smooth as a smaller ratio change.

I'll post my thoughts once I've had a proper play.

Having now built a few R8000 & R9100 bikes, I disagree with that guy's impression of the front shifting on the new systems. I will qualify this with the note that this is only workshop tuning, as I have not had the bikes out on the road to test in anger. I've had none of the hesitation he experiences, and the new derailleur design is smoother in its action than the pervious long-arm models, which tended to be very jerky in their action, particularly early in the shift stroke. Like the previous generation there is a bit of a knack to getting proper cable tuning, so it is possible that test rig wasn't optimally tuned, causing some rough shifting.
I had a thought, but it got run over as it crossed my mind.

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