Cyclist safety at roundabouts

human909
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Re: Cyclist safety at roundabouts

Postby human909 » Tue Jul 18, 2017 1:07 pm

Leaf T wrote:Some roundabouts in inner north suburbs of Melbourne have speed humps. Seems to work. Stop signs have the potential to incur financial penalty of course. :D


IMO they are far from an ideal solution. Speed humps directly before an intersection can be a distraction. That is what I've found as a motorist driving through the Pigdon St roundabout. On my approach to the intersection I now have to pay more attention to the road conditions. I'd prefer to be giving my full attention to the traffic conditions in the roundabout that having to worry about the road conditions.

As a cyclist going through that roundabout I don't trust motorists one bit. But the speed hump doesn't change that, it just changes their speed.

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antigee
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Re: Cyclist safety at roundabouts

Postby antigee » Thu Jul 20, 2017 9:41 am

had a quick look thru the detail of the Vic' TAC campaigns and noticed this section:

Features of safe roads:

Roundabouts have been proven to be safer than stop signs or signals at an intersection. Roundabouts work by slowing down vehicles and directing all traffic in one direction - if a crash does happen it is usually less severe.


full text and context here https://www.towardszero.vic.gov.au/safe ... ads-matter

needs an edit to read something like Roundabouts have been proven to be safer than stop signs or signals at an intersection, for the occupants of motor vehicles when crashes occur ....ped's you can just wait for a gap in the traffic, forget drivers having to give way like at a normal junction - you're screwed over and that was dangerous as a lot of drivers ignored the rule anyway ...cyclists you are just a blip in the data so we'll choose to ignore research that suggests roundabouts are dangerous for you - go find a safe route suckers :x

BJL
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Re: Cyclist safety at roundabouts

Postby BJL » Thu Jul 20, 2017 9:56 am

antigee - they'll never get their story straight. It'll keep changing to suit themselves.

If VicMotorists truly believed what it says, then why they are making the roads MORE dangerous by putting traffic lights everywhere? Surely they should be embarking on a campaign to rid Melbourne of the scourge of traffic lights. Bring on the roundabout revolution! A roundabout for every Bunnings! :P

:roll:

human909
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Re: Cyclist safety at roundabouts

Postby human909 » Thu Jul 20, 2017 3:20 pm

I would not be too eager to scream out the dangers of roundabouts for cyclists. They seem to work perfectly well in Europe. Back in Australia, Canning street roundabout was converted to STOP signs facing motorist to make it safer for cyclists. It had the opposite effect and thus was converted back.

The bigger issues at hand is driver competency and in the case of major roads a lack of alternative infrastructure. (I see no problems with designing urban roads for 80kph traffic in appropriate provisions are made for pedestrians and cyclists. Sadly however even pedestrians often miss out so there is little hope for cyclists.

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Leaf T
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Re: Cyclist safety at roundabouts

Postby Leaf T » Thu Jul 20, 2017 5:38 pm

That's interesting that stop signs made it worse. I would think most people would at least slow but I guess there's always the one's who may slow or stop but literally don't look for other road users. How did it make it worse?

human909
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Re: Cyclist safety at roundabouts

Postby human909 » Thu Jul 20, 2017 7:00 pm

Leaf T wrote:That's interesting that stop signs made it worse. I would think most people would at least slow but I guess there's always the one's who may slow or stop but literally don't look for other road users. How did it make it worse?

At a guess it was a combination of factors:

-50% more give way actions required by crossing motorists (aka they need to give way to the LEFT and the RIGHT not just the RIGHT)
(I would think this was the biggest factor. Given it gives motorists twice the chance to screw up.)

-Giving way to left the driver to look further
-Canning St (the cycling Boulevard) is divided thus requiring a double STOP something that motorists are reluctant to do even once.
-Poor implementation meant that some motorists may have been confused with the intersection as it still appeared similar to a roundabout despite having two stop signs and straightened cross points.

BJL
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Re: Cyclist safety at roundabouts

Postby BJL » Thu Jul 20, 2017 7:19 pm

human909 wrote:I would not be too eager to scream out the dangers of roundabouts for cyclists. They seem to work perfectly well in Europe. Back in Australia, Canning street roundabout was converted to STOP signs facing motorist to make it safer for cyclists. It had the opposite effect and thus was converted back.

The bigger issues at hand is driver competency and in the case of major roads a lack of alternative infrastructure. (I see no problems with designing urban roads for 80kph traffic in appropriate provisions are made for pedestrians and cyclists. Sadly however even pedestrians often miss out so there is little hope for cyclists.


What works well in Europe doesn't necessarily work well here. You may as well live in straw huts in the Arctic. You hit the nail on the head with driver competency. Fortunately though, driver competency isn't an issue here because everyone is a champion driver with impeccable driving skills and never, ever breaks the law or does anything wrong.

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antigee
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Re: Cyclist safety at roundabouts

Postby antigee » Thu Jul 20, 2017 9:15 pm

human909 wrote:I would not be too eager to scream out the dangers of roundabouts for cyclists. They seem to work perfectly well in Europe. Back in Australia, Canning street roundabout was converted to STOP signs facing motorist to make it safer for cyclists. It had the opposite effect and thus was converted back.

The bigger issues at hand is driver competency and in the case of major roads a lack of alternative infrastructure. (I see no problems with designing urban roads for 80kph traffic in appropriate provisions are made for pedestrians and cyclists. Sadly however even pedestrians often miss out so there is little hope for cyclists.



Mulger bill wrote:
find_bruce wrote:Worryingly is that Austroads are fairly vague about what might be done about reducing entry speed.

I'm a low cost consultant, they can have this for a fifty. Go left...
Image


circular debate? :D - in the UK we used to refer to the roundabouts on the left in Mulger bill's pic' as "French" ----though not all mainland continental roundabouts follow this slow drivers down design a lot of French ones do use this deliberately right angled, narrow entry - the UK is fast moving away from Europe and never went for this style much preference to fast in / fast out multi lane

fix driver attitudes and competency on lower speed roads and alternative provision on roads intended to move vehicles at high speed are the not easy solutions but with political will its possible

incidentally I'm not that familiar with Canning St history and probably only ride up there on a specific mission a couple of times a year but a roundabout on there (junction with Pigdon St) gets specific mention in Vicroads 2016 guidelines as an example of how to implement entry/exit restrictions to slow traffic speed (warning BIG pdf file not mobile friendly)

diagrams page 25 and accident data headliner on Page 61 - hopefully not the roundabout that had to be removed?

https://www.vicroads.vic.gov.au/~/media ... abouts.pdf

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Re: Cyclist safety at roundabouts

Postby 1Rowdy1 » Thu Jul 20, 2017 10:30 pm

Last edited by 1Rowdy1 on Fri Jul 21, 2017 3:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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human909
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Re: Cyclist safety at roundabouts

Postby human909 » Fri Jul 21, 2017 6:44 am

BJL wrote:What works well in Europe doesn't necessarily work well here. You may as well live in straw huts in the Arctic. You hit the nail on the head with driver competency. Fortunately though, driver competency isn't an issue here because everyone is a champion driver with impeccable driving skills and never, ever breaks the law or does anything wrong.

I don't think that type of response was necessary.

antigee wrote:circular debate? :D - in the UK we used to refer to the roundabouts on the left in Mulger bill's pic' as "French" ----though not all mainland continental roundabouts follow this slow drivers down design a lot of French ones do use this deliberately right angled, narrow entry - the UK is fast moving away from Europe and never went for this style much preference to fast in / fast out multi lane

fix driver attitudes and competency on lower speed roads and alternative provision on roads intended to move vehicles at high speed are the not easy solutions but with political will its possible

Exactly. :)

antigee wrote:incidentally I'm not that familiar with Canning St history and probably only ride up there on a specific mission a couple of times a year but a roundabout on there (junction with Pigdon St) gets specific mention in Vicroads 2016 guidelines as an example of how to implement entry/exit restrictions to slow traffic speed (warning BIG pdf file not mobile friendly)

diagrams page 25 and accident data headliner on Page 61 - hopefully not the roundabout that had to be removed?

Yes that exact roundabout. It was removed (with good but flawed intentions) and then reinstalled when crashes increased.

The original roundabout was a perpendicular design and perfectly fine. They then made it a through chicane with stop signs and then reverted it back to being a roundabout. Overall I don't believe the roundabout was improved. As a driver I can chicane through it more easily than before.

More discussion of these changes in 2010 HERE:
https://www.bicyclenetwork.com.au/forum ... 11&t=18222

The conversion back to being a roundabout here:
https://www.bicyclenetwork.com.au/forum ... 2&start=90

BJL
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Re: Cyclist safety at roundabouts

Postby BJL » Fri Jul 21, 2017 8:13 am

human909 wrote:I don't think that type of response was necessary.


Just highlighting the facts but if that's the way you feel, then most of this forum probably isn't necessary. :?

human909 wrote:The original roundabout was a perpendicular design and perfectly fine. They then made it a through chicane with stop signs and then reverted it back to being a roundabout. Overall I don't believe the roundabout was improved. As a driver I can chicane through it more easily than before.


Do you now drive through it faster?

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Re: Cyclist safety at roundabouts

Postby fat and old » Fri Jul 21, 2017 10:25 am

This one in Canning?

https://www.google.com.au/maps/@-37.782 ... 312!8i6656

Nah, it's good...it has magic sharrows 8) and you can tell by the kerb of the roundabout that motorists take it easy.... :roll:

That one in Dalton Rd that was mentioned is part way through being signalised. It's a death trap atm. Vic Roads shows absolutely no control over it's sub-contractor Ace Construction Group to maintain a safe site.

human909
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Re: Cyclist safety at roundabouts

Postby human909 » Fri Jul 21, 2017 12:25 pm

BJL wrote:Do you now drive through it faster?

Would it be an issue if I did?

As a cyclist and a driver I will slow down as necessary to check for traffic and give way as needed. Is there something wrong with that?

BJL
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Re: Cyclist safety at roundabouts

Postby BJL » Fri Jul 21, 2017 3:40 pm

human909 wrote:
BJL wrote:Do you now drive through it faster?

Would it be an issue if I did?

As a cyclist and a driver I will slow down as necessary to check for traffic and give way as needed. Is there something wrong with that?


Yep, it would be an issue. It's an attitude issue. If it wasn't safe to drive fast through there before with the old configuration, why is it okay to drive through there faster now? Does the new configuration somehow allow you to assess the conditions faster?

You're part of the problem.

human909
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Re: Cyclist safety at roundabouts

Postby human909 » Fri Jul 21, 2017 3:54 pm

BJL wrote:Yep, it would be an issue. It's an attitude issue.

Speaking of attitude issues... :P :wink:

BJL wrote:If it wasn't safe to drive fast through there before with the old configuration, why is it okay to drive through there faster now? Does the new configuration somehow allow you to assess the conditions faster?

You're part of the problem.

You are making a whole lot of assumptions there which you are in no position to do so.

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Red Rider
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Re: Cyclist safety at roundabouts

Postby Red Rider » Thu Jul 27, 2017 9:35 pm

They've recently installed a round about at an intersection in Mt Pleasant, with speed bumps at each approach. And they are absolutely brutal, anything over 5kph and it feels like the axles will be ripped off. No problems riding through that intersection now :mrgreen:

BJL
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Re: Cyclist safety at roundabouts

Postby BJL » Thu Jul 27, 2017 11:20 pm

human909 wrote:
BJL wrote:Yep, it would be an issue. It's an attitude issue.

Speaking of attitude issues... :P :wink:


Maybe I'm just sick and tired of being treated like !! BAN ME NOW FOR SWEARING !! just for riding my bike. Does my attitude really surprise you? You want to achieve something here in Australia, then do it in numbers, like the Dutch did decades ago. But while we all argue among ourselves, then you can expect nothing.

BJL wrote:If it wasn't safe to drive fast through there before with the old configuration, why is it okay to drive through there faster now? Does the new configuration somehow allow you to assess the conditions faster?

You're part of the problem.

You are making a whole lot of assumptions there which you are in no position to do so.[/quote]

Maybe. I don't know the exact roundabout. But if you can drive through there faster than you could before and you do, then it's probable that many others also do so. And faster speeds through intersections means less reaction time and less margin for error, Making things more dangerous for more vulnerable road users, like cyclists. Changing the configuration of an intersection does not in any way improve your response time to the situation. It encourages you to drive faster through that intersection. Maybe you, as a cyclist understands and takes the necessary care, but I can't say the same for motorists who are not cyclists and have never been placed in our position. I say that from experience. I only started cycling five years ago. And I'll say I'm a much better motorist as a result. It's probably sheer luck that I never killer anyone earlier. I'm not proud of that. I never realized beforehand. Now I do. Probably mellowing out with age and driving a !! BAN ME NOW FOR SWEARING !! heap helps too. I couldn't have been a hoon with my last car if I tried.

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baabaa
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Re: Cyclist safety at roundabouts

Postby baabaa » Fri Jul 28, 2017 4:36 pm

A big but once bastard of a roundabout on the Bruce Highway in the ACT now has traffic lights (Gundaroo Drive I think). It has had slow down solid white raised paint strips across the road before the entry for a while but this didn't work and the site had lots of prangs.
Of course prior to the lights be turned on the people who still go by the give way to the right "law" shouted it would be the end of the world, and yet in action I consider traffic flows much better. While I am not a local and yet to bike it, cant see any issues for biking as the speed on the roundabout is now much slower. This is a great example of the need for stop signs and a solid painted stop lines and not the give way dash lines on any busy road roundabouts. The law is very clear and simple but so badly abused by people speeding through them that busy ones are just now dangerous and they no longer aid in assisting traffic flows.

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yugyug
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Re: Cyclist safety at roundabouts

Postby yugyug » Sun Jul 30, 2017 6:45 pm

I've posted this on this forum before i think, but thought it might interesting for this thread.

Roundabouts in Newcastle that provide ramps for bicycles to cross on the footpath.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xjSi2hohRwA

Interesting that it encourages something explicitly illegal in NSW.

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