Cyclist seriously injured in Brisbane

CKinnard
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Re: Cyclist seriously injured in Brisbane

Postby CKinnard » Thu Nov 02, 2017 9:13 pm

human909 wrote: I'm not sure how that is relevant nor how your choice is relevant to another person's choice.

We should be able to choose.
My point being some think MHL is inappropriate in Australia because!.... not only does it not exist in the developing world.....but neither Europe!

The driver, the sports cyclists, and the response of the police and law in this incident yet again, illustrate how unlike the developing world and Europe Australia is.

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Re: Cyclist seriously injured in Brisbane

Postby Thoglette » Thu Nov 02, 2017 9:29 pm

Guys - this is NOT the MHL thread. Perhaps you can take this conversation over there before the moderators lock this thread?
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Re: Cyclist seriously injured in Brisbane

Postby CKinnard » Thu Nov 02, 2017 9:40 pm

Comedian wrote: And how often do you ride to the local shops, doctor, restaurant, barber, school?
5-6 days a week. yeah it would be less a hassle without a helmet...but I thought the same when compulsory seat belt laws were introduced.

I am not pollyanna-ish about the state of physical health of Australians (where the obesity rate is essentially 1/3, ~60% higher than Europe).

But what's even more pertinent than physical health (of motorists) for safer road cycling, is cultural health, for which Australia just isn't Europe.

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Re: Cyclist seriously injured in Brisbane

Postby CKinnard » Thu Nov 02, 2017 9:48 pm

Thoglette wrote:Guys - this is NOT the MHL thread. Perhaps you can take this conversation over there before the moderators lock this thread?
that's a given.
I raise MHL because it's a meme for those who overplay the significance of getting rid of MHL, as a critical strategic offense in creating European cycling conditions in Australia.
Not in my wildest dreams could I imagine French police and magistrates emulate what happened in this incident.
Culture is not so simply socially engineered.

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Re: Cyclist seriously injured in Brisbane

Postby London Boy » Thu Nov 02, 2017 10:46 pm

Comedian wrote:He also told me once.. that if you are doing anything in life that requires protective equipment you should probably consider whether you really want to do it.
Equally pertinent is the hierarchy of controls for hazard prevention. The most effective controls are engineering controls, to eliminate the hazard or replace it with a safer alternative. The next, somewhat less effective controls are procedural, like better laws. The least effective control is use of PPE, like bicycle helmets.

But PPE is cheap to legislate, so is all too often the choice made by people with budgets to mind, but who otherwise really don't give a f.

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Re: Cyclist seriously injured in Brisbane

Postby Thoglette » Fri Nov 03, 2017 1:07 am

CKinnard wrote:I raise MHL because it's a meme for those who overplay the significance of getting rid of MHL, as a critical strategic offense in creating European cycling conditions in Australia.
But you ignore the political role of MHLs in setting that culture: the whole point of MHLs is to signify that cycling on the road, particularly utility cycling, is undesirable, illegitimate and "other".
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Re: Cyclist seriously injured in Brisbane

Postby human909 » Fri Nov 03, 2017 7:16 am

CKinnard wrote:Culture is not so simply socially engineered.
It was socially engineered back in the early 90s. Complete with advertising campaigns and fines for those that didn't comply.

You know, the same way we go about socially engineering away lots of things... Drink driving and cigarette smoking for example (taxes for the latter not fines.)

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Re: Cyclist seriously injured in Brisbane

Postby im_no_pro » Fri Nov 03, 2017 2:32 pm

Thoglette wrote:Guys - this is NOT the MHL thread. Perhaps you can take this conversation over there before the moderators lock this thread?
I dont really need to add anything to this. I hope.
master6 wrote: Moderators are like Club Handicappers; I often think they are wrong, but I dont want the job.

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Re: Cyclist seriously injured in Brisbane

Postby CKinnard » Fri Nov 03, 2017 5:53 pm

London Boy wrote:
Comedian wrote:He also told me once.. that if you are doing anything in life that requires protective equipment you should probably consider whether you really want to do it.
Equally pertinent is the hierarchy of controls for hazard prevention. The most effective controls are engineering controls, to eliminate the hazard or replace it with a safer alternative. The next, somewhat less effective controls are procedural, like better laws. The least effective control is use of PPE, like bicycle helmets.

But PPE is cheap to legislate, so is all too often the choice made by people with budgets to mind, but who otherwise really don't give a f.
standing ovation!

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Re: Cyclist seriously injured in Brisbane

Postby CKinnard » Fri Nov 03, 2017 6:08 pm

human909 wrote:
CKinnard wrote:Culture is not so simply socially engineered.
It was socially engineered back in the early 90s. Complete with advertising campaigns and fines for those that didn't comply.

You know, the same way we go about socially engineering away lots of things... Drink driving and cigarette smoking for example (taxes for the latter not fines.)
I understand the analogy....but it is flawed.

Infrastructure (meaning public transport which includes roads) is seriously lagging population growth, while simultaneously LGA town plans and loose credit are creating an environment where popn growth is forcing the median city dweller further outwards, and increasing median commute times to work places.

Well may savvy inner urbanites crow about the benefits of bicycle commuting, but the reality for the median is that they live too far from cbd's for cost effective public transport, let alone pragmatic bicycle commutes.

This is why I don't weight highly the view of bicycle commuters who live within 10-15km from the cbd.
They just don't comprehend what life is like for Joe Average (who lives an average 10-15km further out).

And it is Joe Average that determines a nation's culture.
But it has always been difficult to get the silver spooned aspergic children of the landed gentry to comprehend this.
Last edited by CKinnard on Fri Nov 03, 2017 6:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Cyclist seriously injured in Brisbane

Postby mikesbytes » Fri Nov 03, 2017 6:08 pm

Back on topic
find_bruce wrote:5 cyclists have been injured in Brisbane, including 1 with "critical head injuries", caused by a car doing a u-turn

I am appalled that the Queensland Ambulance Service is already supplying excuses for the car driver, saying it was an accident and that he was blinded by the sun.

Here's a thought - if you can't see oncoming traffic because you are blinded by the sun, don't do a u-turn!
If there was an issue with lighting, that isn't an excuse for causing the collision, its an admission that one was not driving the conditions.

The local cyclists have a better understanding of this road than what I can gather from the photos and comments. I'm gathering that a separated cycleway wouldn't of helped at this point as its adjacent a driveway and therefor there would of be a break in the cycleway dividing wall, which the motorists could stick the nose of their car into.

One option would be to put a solid divider in the centre of the road so cars cannot turn right out of a driveway or perform a u-turn. Another improvement would be to remove the parking on the downhill side, making the uphill side wider to include an uphill cycle lane (not in door zone).
If the R-1 rule is broken, what happens to N+1?

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Re: Cyclist seriously injured in Brisbane

Postby CKinnard » Fri Nov 03, 2017 6:21 pm

mikesbytes wrote: One option would be to put a solid divider in the centre of the road so cars cannot turn right out of a driveway or perform a u-turn. Another improvement would be to remove the parking on the downhill side, making the uphill side wider to include an uphill cycle lane (not in door zone).
Mike, if you haven't cottoned on to my mindset yet (easily done), it is that this accident reflects not poor judgement per se by cyclists or motorist.....but a poor understanding of the stresses at play at various levels of the social strata.

The gap between rich and informed, versus, poor/welfare and ill-educated, has grown enormously in my lifetime.
It has led to a situation where you have university educated wealthy and entitled mining company executives riding $10,000+ bicycles on roads shared by young neurodevelopmentally challenged fellas driving dubiously modified cars who have never had a square meal in their life, may have been flogged and abused by a drunkard step father, and have $60 in the bank to see them through til next pay check.

THIS is the reality of Australian "culture".....and hints at why Australia is not more Euro.
You can tell a lot about a nation's culture from its "arts".....in this respect, Australia gave the world Mad Max and accadacca.
Now what's the Euro equivalent?

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Re: Cyclist seriously injured in Brisbane

Postby human909 » Fri Nov 03, 2017 7:08 pm

You are seriously kidding yourself here if you blame inequality as the cause. Cars and the large urban expanses associated are far more expensive to build, own and maintain than alternatives.

Australia's 'blue collar workers' have a higher income than our 'white collar workers'. Our income inequality certainly could be better but it is far from the worst. We have the highest minimum wage in the world.

While I myself haven't experience riding in third world countries with severe inequality and almost non existent education, from what I hear cyclists are treated far more empathetically in many/most places.

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Re: Cyclist seriously injured in Brisbane

Postby citywomble » Thu Nov 23, 2017 11:25 pm

Hi,

Having driven in many countries in Europe I would dispute the fact that Australian drivers are worse than many European ones. Accident/fatality rates, per unit of distance travelled, in some these countries are worse than Australia.

What does make a difference is the degree to which laws are enforced with those countries having presumed liability, or bias towards holding the heavier vehicle to account, making a big difference. Also safety in numbers reduces accident rates as lower speed limits (30 km/h) in residential streets encourages more cyclists to ride on those streets and drivers become more aware of the presence of cyclists.

The most successful countries integrate cyclists onto 'safe' streets, which teaches people how to ride and drivers to expect cyclists, but (and only) segregates where necessary (generally where speeds are higher and on arterial roads).

It is very possible to provide safe cycling in Australia with a proper enforcement regime (willing to take action because a cyclist was put at risk rather than unwilling to punish a driver because the cyclist took a risk by riding), lower speed limits and segregated links where necessary. This will increase the number of bike riders (pedestrians on bikes) to the benefit of all, however, some cyclists may not like this because it will clutter up some of the facilities with slow peds on bikes.

CKinnard said
Well may savvy inner urbanites crow about the benefits of bicycle commuting, but the reality for the median is that they live too far from cbd's for cost effective public transport, let alone pragmatic bicycle commutes
.

To far does not mean that riding a bike (as opposed to being a cyclist) does not have a role to play. Living 'to far' from the CBD, or in low density suburbs which do not sustain train stations, does not mean we are doomed to the car. Catchment densities can be increased, so that they do sustain good public transport, by substitutingg bike riding for cycling. Riding a bike at a slow 4x walking pace means that at least 4x4=16 times as many properties will be within a 10 minute walk/ride. Riding a bike as part of a multimodal commute can increase the 'effective' density of outer suburbs to the extent that they can now support rail and train stations.

At the end of the day (A) more bikes means less cars, less cars means less congestion and safer roads, this means safer riding which means more bikes = go back to (A)and repeat.

Bike riding in Australia can work with the proper leverage and will from government. In WA we are fortunate because our government does appear to be 'getting it'.

The Netherlands started from the same car driven base that Australia has now - look what they have done. In many cases there too the outer suburbs are too far to commute by bike (alone) but 'bike to rail to work' works well. A typical train station car park, for 400 single occupancy cars, can be repurposed to accomodate 5,000 single occupancy bikes.

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Re: Cyclist seriously injured in Brisbane

Postby CKinnard » Fri Nov 24, 2017 6:41 am

Australia's population growth averages 3-4x that of Euro countries idealized by many cyclists, such as Belgium and Netherlands.
That comparative growth doesn't transfer through to GNI or tax revenue available for infrastructure.

Australia has some of the most expensive property prices in the world relative to median wage, thanks to foolish elites who think a dead economy can avoid recession by perpetually borrowing more offshore capital, from other nations' quantitative easing trickery. On the front page of The Australian this morning, Ken Henry slams the RBA for their interest rate policy. If you don't understand the relevance of this stuff to why our roads are congested, and public transport cannot run profitably, then any discussion is white noise.

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Re: Cyclist seriously injured in Brisbane

Postby human909 » Fri Nov 24, 2017 7:04 am

CKinnard wrote:Australia's population growth averages 3-4x that of Euro countries idealized by many cyclists, such as Belgium and Netherlands.
That comparative growth doesn't transfer through to GNI or tax revenue available for infrastructure.
All the more reason to provide cheaper more effective infrastructure of cycle paths! :wink:

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Re: Cyclist seriously injured in Brisbane

Postby CKinnard » Fri Nov 24, 2017 12:05 pm

human909 wrote:
CKinnard wrote:Australia's population growth averages 3-4x that of Euro countries idealized by many cyclists, such as Belgium and Netherlands.
That comparative growth doesn't transfer through to GNI or tax revenue available for infrastructure.
All the more reason to provide cheaper more effective infrastructure of cycle paths! :wink:
Have a look at the skylines, popn growth rates, and youth unemployment rates of cycling heaven Euro cities such as Amsterdam, Munich, Brussels, Copenhagen.....and point out the similarities with Melbourne! :shock:

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Re: Cyclist seriously injured in Brisbane

Postby Thoglette » Fri Nov 24, 2017 12:30 pm

CKinnard wrote:Have a look at the skylines, popn growth rates, and youth unemployment rates of cycling heaven Euro cities such as Amsterdam, Munich, Brussels, Copenhagen.....and point out the similarities with Melbourne! :shock:
Sorry, what was your point? (I've spent time in Melboune and half of the cities you mention. Clearly I'm thick this morning)
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Re: Cyclist seriously injured in Brisbane

Postby CKinnard » Fri Nov 24, 2017 8:14 pm

Thoglette wrote:
CKinnard wrote:Have a look at the skylines, popn growth rates, and youth unemployment rates of cycling heaven Euro cities such as Amsterdam, Munich, Brussels, Copenhagen.....and point out the similarities with Melbourne! :shock:
Sorry, what was your point? (I've spent time in Melboune and half of the cities you mention. Clearly I'm thick this morning)

If your thickness persists, centralizing jobs, retail, entertainment contributes significantly to traffic congestion.
European cities are not as commercially centralized as Melbourne, or Sydney, or even Brisbane.

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Re: Cyclist seriously injured in Brisbane

Postby Thoglette » Fri Nov 24, 2017 9:08 pm

CKinnard wrote:If your thickness persists, centralizing jobs, retail, entertainment contributes significantly to traffic congestion.
European cities are not as commercially centralized as Melbourne, or Sydney, or even Brisbane.
Agreed: those I'm familiar with don't have the 10+ centre with 1 story everywhere else - usually a few blocks of 10+ surrounded by plenty of 5ish neighbourhoods which then turn into single dwelling usually of 2 or three stories (inc. attic). There's exceptions everywhere but the "bungalow" (with recent McMansioning) is not the monoculture it is here.

Still trying to get what you're driving towards (and I am fatigued today so brain is like a maladjusted derailleur)
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Re: Cyclist seriously injured in Brisbane

Postby CKinnard » Fri Nov 24, 2017 10:01 pm

Thoglette wrote:Agreed: those I'm familiar with don't have the 10+ centre with 1 story everywhere else - usually a few blocks of 10+ surrounded by plenty of 5ish neighbourhoods which then turn into single dwelling usually of 2 or three stories (inc. attic). There's exceptions everywhere but the "bungalow" (with recent McMansioning) is not the monoculture it is here.

Still trying to get what you're driving towards (and I am fatigued today so brain is like a maladjusted derailleur)
We, including me, want better cycling infrastructure, safer driver attitudes towards cyclists, and laws that support that.... a la Euro.
But until one drills down and considers all differences between Australian caps and Euro cities, we've got Buckleys of Euro bicycle usage any time soon. There's a socioeconomic soup of considerations that make Australian and Euro driver attitudes towards cyclists different. Start with binge drinking and violence rates between Australian and Euro cities.

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Re: Cyclist seriously injured in Brisbane

Postby Comedian » Thu Nov 30, 2017 7:30 am

CKinnard wrote:
Thoglette wrote:Agreed: those I'm familiar with don't have the 10+ centre with 1 story everywhere else - usually a few blocks of 10+ surrounded by plenty of 5ish neighbourhoods which then turn into single dwelling usually of 2 or three stories (inc. attic). There's exceptions everywhere but the "bungalow" (with recent McMansioning) is not the monoculture it is here.

Still trying to get what you're driving towards (and I am fatigued today so brain is like a maladjusted derailleur)
We, including me, want better cycling infrastructure, safer driver attitudes towards cyclists, and laws that support that.... a la Euro.
But until one drills down and considers all differences between Australian caps and Euro cities, we've got Buckleys of Euro bicycle usage any time soon. There's a socioeconomic soup of considerations that make Australian and Euro driver attitudes towards cyclists different. Start with binge drinking and violence rates between Australian and Euro cities.
Politicians do everything they do so as to get power. Whether that be looking after an old developer mate or upgrading an intersection which won't reduce traffic congestion.

Sometimes they try and do what they think the people want them to do so they get votes. At the moment people are happy for someone else to sacrifice their car trip so that they can have a better car trip. We are not at the point where Australians are so concerned that they are willing to make sacrifices themselves. So, they are still choosing a block in the burbs and expecting the governments at all levels to lay out a road system that lets them drive to work expeditiously. So, governments build roads...

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Re: Cyclist seriously injured in Brisbane

Postby CKinnard » Thu Nov 30, 2017 2:27 pm

Comedian wrote: Politicians do everything they do so as to get power. Whether that be looking after an old developer mate or upgrading an intersection which won't reduce traffic congestion. ......... So, governments build roads...
- but the Gateway Arterial is still a peak hour parking lot.
- inbound traffic backs up in the a.m. past North Lakes these days, so many of those drivers are fatigued and frustrated by the time they hit your neck of the woods.
- and they scrapped the Brisbane Northern Freeway back in the early 80s.

As I allude, the problem is far more multifactorial than any debate I've heard/read by 'stakeholders'....and when problems are too big, most resort to denial.
And Brisbane's rate of popn growth just cannot be compared to that of cycling friendly Euro cities.

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Re: Cyclist seriously injured in Brisbane

Postby human909 » Fri Dec 01, 2017 1:29 pm

CKinnard wrote:If your thickness persists, centralizing jobs, retail, entertainment contributes significantly to traffic congestion.
European cities are not as commercially centralized as Melbourne, or Sydney, or even Brisbane.
I still fail to see your point. If anything it points to improved possibilities of cycling and public transport! London and Tokyo are massive dense and centralised.

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Re: Cyclist seriously injured in Brisbane

Postby Thoglette » Fri Dec 01, 2017 1:46 pm

CKinnard wrote:There's a socioeconomic soup of considerations that make Australian and Euro driver attitudes towards cyclists different.
Yes, but I'm old enough to recall when "if I can get the keys in the ignition..." was considered the sobriety test. And that one's driving improved after a few (seriously). Likewise when lathering oneself in 'tanning oil' was de rigeur.

Attitudes change and a whole lot quicker than most people realise.
CKinnard wrote:Start with binge drinking and violence rates between Australian and Euro cities.
Hmm, I really don't see the links there, having spent a whackload of time in dodgy parts of some cycle-and-public-transport-friendly cities.
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