New (Old) rebuild - looking for some build advice

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10speedsemiracer
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Re: New (Old) rebuild - looking for some build advice

Postby 10speedsemiracer » Fri Dec 22, 2017 1:41 pm

all good. in the meantime I'm slowly working thru the retro parts stash to see if I have any DiaCompes.
Mmm, SunTour

zedries
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Re: New (Old) rebuild - looking for some build advice

Postby zedries » Fri Dec 22, 2017 4:31 pm

Very grateful.

As the kids say... Show us what you got!

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Re: New (Old) rebuild - looking for some build advice

Postby zedries » Mon Dec 25, 2017 11:33 am

Ok so as promised I fitted a set of wheels from my road bike to test the drop for the brake caliper reach. I’m not sure what I am looking for so hoping these measurements help get some guidance from all you wonderful people.

Anyway, enough talk, more pics:

Image

I also couldn’t find any identifiers for the drop outs either front or rear

Image

Image

I also trust that the frame is really old as I was only able to locate braze ons for the cable guides on the top of the BB barrel and also the cable guide for the RD.

He last one being under the down tube which has the braze on for the clamp on dt shifter

Image

Image

More pics of the lug set

Image

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10speedsemiracer
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Re: New (Old) rebuild - looking for some build advice

Postby 10speedsemiracer » Mon Dec 25, 2017 11:47 am

I think from a braking perspective, you may be stuck with either nutted Tektro r559 calipers Image.

If you want to go retro, some centre-pulls Image, and Paul Engineering and Velo Orange both do modern repro calipers, but it's a much more expensive proposition and would only make sense if you want to run mudguards and/or racks.

The Tektro can be had for $50-60 depending on how lucky you are, and will be much more effective (after you get rid of the Tektro OEM pads) than the centre-pulls.
Mmm, SunTour

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Re: New (Old) rebuild - looking for some build advice

Postby zedries » Mon Dec 25, 2017 12:12 pm

That’s for the awesome advice. I think I will look into the tektro as you suggest as it seems as much as I would like gran compe’s I will have fitment issues.

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Re: New (Old) rebuild - looking for some build advice

Postby zedries » Mon Dec 25, 2017 12:17 pm

Also, after putting the wheel on and soaking the interior of the fork/quill in vinegar and all manners of rust remover I could not break the bond. I suspect I will have to cut the quill and try to remove it from the fork body somehow... what a drama!

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singlespeedscott
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Re: New (Old) rebuild - looking for some build advice

Postby singlespeedscott » Mon Dec 25, 2017 2:33 pm

Have you tried tapping it down with a hammer to break the bond.

Re the brakes, I’d take the Gran Compe centre pulls over those Tektros anytime. They flex less, have more power and great modulation, plus, as stated before, they fit over mudguards.
Image

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Re: New (Old) rebuild - looking for some build advice

Postby 10speedsemiracer » Mon Dec 25, 2017 6:16 pm

I like the Centre-pulls but without the Park Tool 4th hand, are a pain to adjust. I had Weinmann on a Raleigh and they were ok.
Mmm, SunTour

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rkelsen
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Re: New (Old) rebuild - looking for some build advice

Postby rkelsen » Mon Dec 25, 2017 7:42 pm

zedries wrote:Ok so as promised I fitted a set of wheels from my road bike to test the drop for the brake caliper reach.

Going by the pic, you'll need a 57mm drop. I'd go for a long reach caliper. The Tektro 559s are a pretty good brake for the price.

The only other advice I have is that the Shimano 600 RD won't work with an 8 speed cassette. It doesn't have enough "swing".

Good project. Please keep us updated with pics.

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Derny Driver
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Re: New (Old) rebuild - looking for some build advice

Postby Derny Driver » Mon Dec 25, 2017 9:16 pm

rkelsen wrote:
zedries wrote:Ok so as promised I fitted a set of wheels from my road bike to test the drop for the brake caliper reach.

Going by the pic, you'll need a 57mm drop. I'd go for a long reach caliper. The Tektro 559s are a pretty good brake for the price.

The only other advice I have is that the Shimano 600 RD won't work with an 8 speed cassette. It doesn't have enough "swing".

Good project. Please keep us updated with pics.

I have some ancient Weinmann long reach calipers on one of my bikes. They would go to about 85mm I reckon. 57mm is not all that much. You may be able to elongate the slots that hold the brake pads on Dia Compes ...Ive done that before successfully. Putting Tektros on a retro rebuild .... well I would never do that. But its your bike and if you dont care ....
You probably wont get all 8 gears with any downtube shifters so no biggie. Just ignore the last 2 cogs.

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Re: New (Old) rebuild - looking for some build advice

Postby zedries » Mon Dec 25, 2017 9:50 pm

More great info from everyone here. Thanks so much.

I will of course look into the centre pulls for that period correct effect.

Again, first retro bike build so please let me know what you all think as I go. Hope to get some more paint stripper on the frame with a wire wheel tomorrow.

Also, yes I’ve done a fair bit of work on the stem. Just won’t budge unfortunately.

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Re: New (Old) rebuild - looking for some build advice

Postby uart » Fri Dec 29, 2017 6:51 pm

zedries wrote:Also, yes I’ve done a fair bit of work on the stem. Just won’t budge unfortunately.

I know this is basic stuff and you've probably already tried it, but have you loosened the stem bolt right back and tapped it (the bolt itself while it's loose but still engaged with the nut) down firmly with a hammer to make sure the taper or wedge nut is fully released?

Some old bikes had a tapered (cone shaped) nut rather than the wedge style. The wedge style ones usually release pretty easily after backing off the stem bolt. The tapered ones however sometimes get themselves very firmly stuck into the end of the stem and can require good blow with a hammer to release. They also are more likely to spread the end of the stem and leave it jammed tight into the steerer tube. Whatever the case, make sure that the nut has been knocked completely free before doing anything else.

Also don't forget the previous advice to try tapping the stem further down (after making sure the nut is completely free!) before trying to extract it. I know it might seem counter intuitive to to bash it further in when you are trying to get it out, but I've had to do this on several old bikes and it definitely works.

BTW. Soaking with a 50/50 mixture of acetone and auto transmission fluid makes a really good penetrating lube to free up corroded parts.

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Re: New (Old) rebuild - looking for some build advice

Postby zedries » Tue Jan 02, 2018 11:06 am

uart wrote:
zedries wrote:Also, yes I’ve done a fair bit of work on the stem. Just won’t budge unfortunately.

I know this is basic stuff and you've probably already tried it, but have you loosened the stem bolt right back and tapped it (the bolt itself while it's loose but still engaged with the nut) down firmly with a hammer to make sure the taper or wedge nut is fully released?

Some old bikes had a tapered (cone shaped) nut rather than the wedge style. The wedge style ones usually release pretty easily after backing off the stem bolt. The tapered ones however sometimes get themselves very firmly stuck into the end of the stem and can require good blow with a hammer to release. They also are more likely to spread the end of the stem and leave it jammed tight into the steerer tube. Whatever the case, make sure that the nut has been knocked completely free before doing anything else.

Also don't forget the previous advice to try tapping the stem further down (after making sure the nut is completely free!) before trying to extract it. I know it might seem counter intuitive to to bash it further in when you are trying to get it out, but I've had to do this on several old bikes and it definitely works.

BTW. Soaking with a 50/50 mixture of acetone and auto transmission fluid makes a really good penetrating lube to free up corroded parts.


Thanks uart - I have done most of those things and unfortunately they have not yet budged. I didn't give up yet and I think I will try the ATF/Acetone solution and see if that makes it budge. I really am avoiding cutting off the quill and will try almost anything to have it release.

I will keep you all informed of my progress or lack there of.

Happy new year people!

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Re: New (Old) rebuild - looking for some build advice

Postby hartleymartin » Tue Jan 02, 2018 3:34 pm

I have had the 610 centre-pulls. I think I still have a couple of sets around the garage somewhere. I can tell you that the Tektro R559s make for a far superior brake to the old centre pulls, though I would recommend getting some Salmon Kool-Stop brake pads (best pads in my opinion).
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zedries
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Re: New (Old) rebuild - looking for some build advice

Postby zedries » Tue Jan 02, 2018 4:03 pm

hartleymartin wrote:I have had the 610 centre-pulls. I think I still have a couple of sets around the garage somewhere. I can tell you that the Tektro R559s make for a far superior brake to the old centre pulls, though I would recommend getting some Salmon Kool-Stop brake pads (best pads in my opinion).



I can imagine that a newer braking set up would be superior to the older period correct centre-pulls but I am a sucker for trying to keep things original. If there's any chance you have those centre-pulls available at a reasonable price perhaps we can do business? I'm in Sydney BTW.

One other piece of advice I would be grateful for is any input on seat post and saddle? I have a very new and incorrect style one available for the build and some riding about once it's all built up but would like to know what I should be looking out for.

Thanks in advance.

Z

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Re: New (Old) rebuild - looking for some build advice

Postby Kronos » Wed Jan 03, 2018 9:58 pm

These frames will take whatever it is you throw at it. I'm currently running a SRAM Double Tap 2x10 groupset on a steel lugged Giant. You can make a more modern groupset work if you want to. You just need to change the cup and cone to a cartridge based bottom bracket. Or you can stick with the cup and cone, whichever way suits you best. 700c wheels will also work, I'm running them on my Giant. You may however need longer reach on your brake calipers, and you might be limited on your tyre and rim width choices by default but you can also fix that with enough effort. Messing around with old bikes is an art form and one most of your local bike stores have given up on.

If your Quill is rusted on and you can't jimmy it in a vice to remove it, then you might need a specialist fluid such as the type listed above of a mixture of acetone and transmission fluid to loosen it up. I'm still running the standard quill on my Giant and haven't found that much of a need to do anything more than adjust it to suit let alone remove and replace it just yet. I'm waiting a bit until I can find the time to source a quill that will take a standard 31.8 handle bar. I've been thinking about one of these for a little while now so that I can run modern handlebars with a more functional drop that can actually accommodate my hands properly while braking. My Giant has SR Sake Road Champion bars on it that are designed for Japanese hands. Quill adapters are ugly so I wont be going down that pathway.

Old bikes that are functional these days are pieces of art and should be respected whichever way you go about it good on you for salvaging another steel bike.

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Re: New (Old) rebuild - looking for some build advice

Postby zedries » Fri Jan 05, 2018 1:30 pm

Kronos wrote:These frames will take whatever it is you throw at it. I'm currently running a SRAM Double Tap 2x10 groupset on a steel lugged Giant. You can make a more modern groupset work if you want to. You just need to change the cup and cone to a cartridge based bottom bracket. Or you can stick with the cup and cone, whichever way suits you best. 700c wheels will also work, I'm running them on my Giant. You may however need longer reach on your brake calipers, and you might be limited on your tyre and rim width choices by default but you can also fix that with enough effort. Messing around with old bikes is an art form and one most of your local bike stores have given up on.

If your Quill is rusted on and you can't jimmy it in a vice to remove it, then you might need a specialist fluid such as the type listed above of a mixture of acetone and transmission fluid to loosen it up. I'm still running the standard quill on my Giant and haven't found that much of a need to do anything more than adjust it to suit let alone remove and replace it just yet. I'm waiting a bit until I can find the time to source a quill that will take a standard 31.8 handle bar. I've been thinking about one of these for a little while now so that I can run modern handlebars with a more functional drop that can actually accommodate my hands properly while braking. My Giant has SR Sake Road Champion bars on it that are designed for Japanese hands. Quill adapters are ugly so I wont be going down that pathway.

Old bikes that are functional these days are pieces of art and should be respected whichever way you go about it good on you for salvaging another steel bike.


Thanks for the input Kronos!

Sounds like you have a nice set up on your Giant. Care o share any pictures? Hopefully this weekend I will have some updates on brakes and the quill. Life has taken my bike time down to a minimum but I hope that improves come next week.

Can't wait to get this old girl up and running. Pretty much finished all the accessories and drive train - that is to say I have all the functional parts at hand, just need to sort out the frame and then pick some colour for full steam ahead!

Zaahir

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Re: New (Old) rebuild - looking for some build advice

Postby Kronos » Fri Jan 05, 2018 4:52 pm

I've got a few pictures... I've fitted a Thomson Elite seat post since then and I'm also looking into getting an oversized quill so I can run modern bars. Apart from the fact that there's no point in spending too much money on an old steel bike its good to have parts you can put on another frame later. Although... This has become my daily rider at the moment, it fits like an old glove. You don't really notice much difference until you try to go up a hill either.

Image

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Re: New (Old) rebuild - looking for some build advice

Postby zedries » Mon Jan 08, 2018 2:26 pm

Kronos wrote:I've got a few pictures... I've fitted a Thomson Elite seat post since then and I'm also looking into getting an oversized quill so I can run modern bars. Apart from the fact that there's no point in spending too much money on an old steel bike its good to have parts you can put on another frame later. Although... This has become my daily rider at the moment, it fits like an old glove. You don't really notice much difference until you try to go up a hill either.

Image



Good stuff and thanks for sharing. There's a rider I see around centennial park who has mostly Ultegra all over an old steel frame. He keeps up with everyone fine in his group but then like you say, from a climbing point of view it can be a different story.

I'd like to build mine into a commuter/daily rider and was looking into a green frame so will have to wait and see how it all pans out and if I can actually identify the brand. It seems to have originally been blue which is also not that helpful but I'll keep at it.

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Re: New (Old) rebuild - looking for some build advice

Postby Kronos » Mon Jan 08, 2018 2:44 pm

I can do 30-40km/hr on the flats easy enough but as soon as you hit a hill you've got buckleys chance against most riders. Still for a trainer/commuter it doesn't make a difference. You're still putting out the same watts. So long as you don't mind getting dropped a few times its not a big deal.

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Re: New (Old) rebuild - looking for some build advice

Postby uart » Mon Jan 08, 2018 10:03 pm

Kronos wrote:This has become my daily rider at the moment, it fits like an old glove. You don't really notice much difference until you try to go up a hill either.


zedries wrote:Good stuff and thanks for sharing. There's a rider I see around centennial park who has mostly Ultegra all over an old steel frame. He keeps up with everyone fine in his group but then like you say, from a climbing point of view it can be a different story.


Kronos wrote:I can do 30-40km/hr on the flats easy enough but as soon as you hit a hill you've got buckleys chance against most riders.


People often way overestimate the penalty of a little more weight on a bicycle, and the comments quoted above really illustrate this. For most riders every 1kg increase in mass will correspond to less than 1% extra effort on climbs, so a couple of extra kg can very easily be covered by a very slightly fitter or stronger rider. Sure at elite levels of competition every last fraction of a percent counts, but it's just not so for recreational riders.

Some numbers to help clarify this:

- At 19 km/hr on a 5% gradient, every added kg increases power demand by just over 2.5 Watts.
- At 14 km/hr on a 8% gradient, every added kg increases power demand by just over 3 Watts.

And to put those numbers into perspective, in each of the above scenarios the rider will be putting out around 300W to 350W (depending mostly on rider weight) at those gradients and speeds.

The difference is actually so small that even just slightly better tyres could cover an extra one or two kg there, or a rider just very slightly more capable who can put out an extra 5 or 6 watts. It's crazy to talk about such small wattage increases as though they were insurmountable.

Please do keep up the myth though, that having a slightly heavier steel bike makes it almost impossible to keep up on hills, because I ride an old steel bike and this perception leads people to believe that I'm a lot stronger and faster than I actually am when I beat them to the top. :)

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Re: New (Old) rebuild - looking for some build advice

Postby Kronos » Fri Jan 12, 2018 2:43 pm

Thanks, I've been thinking about this over the last couple of days... to be honest, you can save more on the rider, a better fitting jersey and a helmet without vents can make you up to 5km/hr faster. Shaving weight off your wheels might only lead to a 1km/hr increase in raw speed. This is a can of worms, it depends on how serious the rider is of course.

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Re: New (Old) rebuild - looking for some build advice

Postby TopSide » Sun Jan 14, 2018 7:20 am

The frame number on the BB is from the manufacturer Miki of Sakai Japan. The M is for Miki, the 0 is for the year 1980, the next letter H is the month of manufacture, August.

Several Australian brand names used Miki frames: Borsari in Melbourne, Apollo V model in some years were Miki frames.

Here are links to Hardrubbish of a bike similar to yours. Unfortunately no more pictures.

viewtopic.php?t=31224&start=525#p819913

viewtopic.php?t=31224&start=525#p826960

zedries
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Re: New (Old) rebuild - looking for some build advice

Postby zedries » Thu Jan 18, 2018 9:26 am

TopSide wrote:The frame number on the BB is from the manufacturer Miki of Sakai Japan. The M is for Miki, the 0 is for the year 1980, the next letter H is the month of manufacture, August.

Several Australian brand names used Miki frames: Borsari in Melbourne, Apollo V model in some years were Miki frames.

Here are links to Hardrubbish of a bike similar to yours. Unfortunately no more pictures.

viewtopic.php?t=31224&start=525#p819913

viewtopic.php?t=31224&start=525#p826960

Hi TopSide,

Thanks so much for the information. I'm surprised that the bike is such a late model given the lack of braze ons and simplicity but I suppose that's got more to do with the model style of the frame as opposed to the year. There would probably have been a gradual change in frame builders over the late 70's and 80's moving into the cromolly era.

I'll poke around and see if I can't find some models to base mine on and sort out as close as I can a period correct rebuild and colour scheme.

Zaahir

uart
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Re: New (Old) rebuild - looking for some build advice

Postby uart » Thu Jan 18, 2018 11:03 am

Japanese bikes from that era were generally very nicely made. :D

BTW. Do you have an approximate weight for the bare frame and forks?

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