Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

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Comedian
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby Comedian » Wed Nov 22, 2017 1:21 pm

Thoglette wrote:

I've given the ABC coverage it's own thread (and asked for MHL discusssion to come here. Wait for the merge :-)

Comedian wrote:If you don't like wearing a helmet you probably don't ride now because you don't have a choice about it.


Every single bit of research I've seen on the topic (there's not much) has shown that this is the case. Interestingly, I've seen at least one researcher drop this topic from later published research. Which was co-authored with health&safety professionals


Further on this.. on top of the Bicycle Network announcement our local mayor in Brisbane is a very strong proponent of relaxing the helmet laws. He quite rightly see's this as an opportunity to help our city cycle really get use. Unfortunately he's a politician.. and he can't change the helmet law but he can yell at the opposition state transport minister. He could get on an build our CBD cycle grid but that's all a bit hard for him... but I digress.

ABC in Brisbane did a story on the BN announcement and the local guys call for the repeal and the comments are pretty interesting. As we've agreed the people who ride now are largely happy with MHL because if they didn't.. they wouldn't ride now. So it's all when I was mountain biking I feel off a 200ft embankment and a helmet saved my life etc etc.

But the other group and probably the majority are motorists. Their take on it is "absolutely" and "if you don't wear one and you get a brain injury don't bother the health system". While there are obvious issues with that the underlying thing is that motorists are quite happy with cyclists wearing helmets. It's no problem to them - and I think they feel as though if they do hit one while texting (Ooopsie!) they might not be as badly hurt so they will see less consequences.

So - what groups have we really got to fight for repeal? A few libertarians and a tiny group of people who know what cycling used to be like here - or what it's like in the rest of the world. I can't see it ever happening.

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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby DavidS » Sat Nov 25, 2017 12:03 am

Hmm, I'm one of the 3.7% and ride every day.

Unfortunately I think Comedian's point is correct, not many out there arguing to repeal the law, worst luck.

In the current heatwave in Melbourne it really does sh*% me having to wear the sweatbox on my head.

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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby Thoglette » Mon Dec 04, 2017 4:17 pm

Bike helmet survey prompts David Leyonhjelm to repeat calls for axing of mandatory laws

ABC Radio Darwin By Jesse Thompson and Richard Margetson wrote:There are calls for the rest of Australia to follow in the NT's footsteps and relax mandatory helmet laws after the country's largest bike riding organisation vowed to review its stance.
....

Liberal Democrat Senator David Leyonhjelm, who is known for championing policies that reduce red tape, said this showed people believed in their own ability to assess the risks posed to them by helmet-free riding.
......
Bicycle Network chief executive Craig Richards said the organisation was reconsidering its support for mandatory helmet laws.

It would be a significant change of tune, upending a position it honoured since the laws were introduced in 1991."Organisationally we have been strong supporters of helmets, but the question now is about whether helmets should be mandatory," Mr Richards said
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby Comedian » Mon Dec 04, 2017 6:18 pm

DavidS wrote:Hmm, I'm one of the 3.7% and ride every day.

Unfortunately I think Comedian's point is correct, not many out there arguing to repeal the law, worst luck.

In the current heatwave in Melbourne it really does sh*% me having to wear the sweatbox on my head.

DS

A motorist would say... "if you don't like it.. why don't you just drive like everyone else?" :roll:

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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby bychosis » Mon Dec 04, 2017 9:13 pm

Not sure if it just me, but lately I seem to be seeing plenty of ‘utility’ riders with lids, but unbuckled. Obviously just as a fine deterrent, be useless for much else.
Last edited by bychosis on Tue Dec 05, 2017 1:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby Comedian » Tue Dec 05, 2017 12:57 pm

bychosis wrote:Not sure if it just me, but lately I seem to be seeing plenty of ‘utility’ riders with kids, but unbuckled. Obviously just as a fine deterrent, be useless for much else.

I think safety is a really complex thing. People ask me and I say that I reckon helmets probably help sometimes, and they probably make things worse other times (rotational and strap injuries).

But what is beyond reasonable argument - is that wearing a legal helmet correctly is 100% effective at stopping you being booked for not wearing one. :oops:

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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby DavidS » Tue Dec 05, 2017 11:22 pm

bychosis wrote:Not sure if it just me, but lately I seem to be seeing plenty of ‘utility’ riders with lids, but unbuckled. Obviously just as a fine deterrent, be useless for much else.


What other use is there?

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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby uart » Tue Dec 05, 2017 11:55 pm

DavidS wrote:
bychosis wrote:Obviously just as a fine deterrent, be useless for much else.

What other use is there?DS


On my local bike path I find that wearing a helmet provides quite a lot of protection for me. Mostly protection against disapproving looks and comments from other cyclists that is. ;)

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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby DavidS » Sat Dec 09, 2017 10:41 pm

uart wrote:
DavidS wrote:
bychosis wrote:Obviously just as a fine deterrent, be useless for much else.

What other use is there?DS


On my local bike path I find that wearing a helmet provides quite a lot of protection for me. Mostly protection against disapproving looks and comments from other cyclists that is. ;)


I just smile at them because I'm so much happier not wearing my helmet :D

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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby Comedian » Sun Dec 10, 2017 8:25 am

DavidS wrote:
uart wrote:
DavidS wrote:What other use is there?DS


On my local bike path I find that wearing a helmet provides quite a lot of protection for me. Mostly protection against disapproving looks and comments from other cyclists that is. ;)


I just smile at them because I'm so much happier not wearing my helmet :D

DS

Remarkably - helmet harassment seems to be a big thing. I have friends who seldom or never wear one and they are often yelled at by other cyclists. Really quite bizarre.

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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby uart » Sun Dec 10, 2017 11:44 am

Comedian wrote:
DavidS wrote:
uart wrote:
On my local bike path I find that wearing a helmet provides quite a lot of protection for me. Mostly protection against disapproving looks and comments from other cyclists that is. ;)


I just smile at them because I'm so much happier not wearing my helmet :D

DS

Remarkably - helmet harassment seems to be a big thing. I have friends who seldom or never wear one and they are often yelled at by other cyclists. Really quite bizarre.

Yes that's true, it really is a thing.

I've had riders on a local shared path call me "an A-hole for not wearing a helmet" and say that "it was on account of people like me that (the then MP) Duncan Gay was introducing tougher penalties. :?

I should point out that now that I'm fitter and ride a lot faster I mostly choose to wear one anyway, but at the time of the above I had some serious health problems and heat stress was a massive issue for me, especially coming up hills were those incidents happened.
Last edited by uart on Sun Dec 10, 2017 12:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby Thoglette » Sun Dec 10, 2017 12:21 pm

Comedian wrote:Remarkably - helmet harassment seems to be a big thing.
Yet the pro MHL crowd (e.g. Olivier, Ivers et al,) repeatedly claim there's no evidence of any such negative impacts of MHLs and the bloody obvious is "merely anecdotal".
Last edited by Thoglette on Tue Dec 12, 2017 12:39 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby DavidS » Mon Dec 11, 2017 11:21 pm

Yeah, I really don't get the agro when you're not wearing a fine avoidance hat. Surely it's my business if I want to risk a fine.

Then again, it is the MHL advocates who want to tell people what to do. It's those of us who oppose MHLs who are quite happy to allow others to do what they want. Want to wear a helmet? Fine by me. Why do you want to tell me what I can and can't do?

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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby Cycleops70 » Tue Dec 12, 2017 2:59 pm

DavidS wrote:Yeah, I really don't get the agro when you're not wearing a fine avoidance hat. Surely it's my business if I want to risk a fine.
DS


I've not really experienced any face to face agro. But my experience of debating* over social media with many pro MHL people, is that they don't consider it to be just avoiding a fine.
To many, there are only 2 options;
1 Wear a helmet
2 Die with massive head injuries.

There doesn't seem to be a possible 3rd option that the vast majority of the world experiences, where they ride a bike in low risk activities & continue with their day as if nothing had to happen.

Years of MHL has really skewed how many people perceive how risky riding a bike is.

*Debating may have been an optimistic term.

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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby Comedian » Tue Dec 12, 2017 3:10 pm

DavidS wrote:Yeah, I really don't get the agro when you're not wearing a fine avoidance hat. Surely it's my business if I want to risk a fine.

Then again, it is the MHL advocates who want to tell people what to do. It's those of us who oppose MHLs who are quite happy to allow others to do what they want. Want to wear a helmet? Fine by me. Why do you want to tell me what I can and can't do?

DS

I wonder if they think it's all good to abuse a motorist who does something wrong.

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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby bychosis » Tue Dec 12, 2017 4:09 pm

Comedian wrote:
DavidS wrote:Yeah, I really don't get the agro when you're not wearing a fine avoidance hat. Surely it's my business if I want to risk a fine.

Then again, it is the MHL advocates who want to tell people what to do. It's those of us who oppose MHLs who are quite happy to allow others to do what they want. Want to wear a helmet? Fine by me. Why do you want to tell me what I can and can't do?

DS

I wonder if they think it's all good to abuse a motorist who does something wrong.

Heck yes. (use a stronger phrase if you want)

Our Aussie community love to follow rules and call others for not doing it. We get most annoyed when someone doesn't follow the rules in many situations, driving, cycling, jumping a queue to name a few. Then the abuse starts.
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby piledhigher » Tue Dec 12, 2017 4:41 pm

bychosis wrote:Heck yes. (use a stronger phrase if you want)

Our Aussie community love others to follow rules and call others for not doing it. We get most annoyed when someone doesn't follow the rules in many situations, driving, cycling, jumping a queue to name a few. Then the abuse starts.


Fixed that for you, when we are speeding, using a phone while driving it is alright because we are better drivers than every one else..

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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby antigee » Tue Jan 23, 2018 12:21 pm

this looks like a clear cut case for PPE to mitigate potential harm from impact:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-01-23/p ... rs/9348416

if education fails then legislation will follow i guess? :-)

(putting aside that the advice is probably good)

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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby Comedian » Tue Jan 23, 2018 1:10 pm

antigee wrote:this looks like a clear cut case for PPE to mitigate potential harm from impact:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-01-23/p ... rs/9348416

if education fails then legislation will follow i guess? :-)

(putting aside that the advice is probably good)


See.. the thing Is I don't like "nanny" state laws. I think anything that citizens do.. sooner or later someone is going to do something stupid. Does that mean that everyone else should have to put up with legislative interference? I think no. (helmet law).

However where it gets a bit messy is driving. Because cars are soo incredibly dangerous. Short of weapons (which are designed to be harmful) cars are pretty much the most dangerous thing any given citizen will do - both to themselves and to other citizens. Yet, they have such momentum that they are seen legislatively as the default position of innocence.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-01-17/cctv-vision-shows-alleged-drunk-driver-on-boardwalk/9336830

As I think I said elsewhere - if I were running the country I would basically be zero tolerance on this stuff. Not everyone is meant to drive.

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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby Cyclophiliac » Tue Jan 23, 2018 1:40 pm

Comedian wrote:
antigee wrote:this looks like a clear cut case for PPE to mitigate potential harm from impact:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-01-23/p ... rs/9348416

if education fails then legislation will follow i guess? :-)

(putting aside that the advice is probably good)


See.. the thing Is I don't like "nanny" state laws. I think anything that citizens do.. sooner or later someone is going to do something stupid. Does that mean that everyone else should have to put up with legislative interference? I think no. (helmet law).

However where it gets a bit messy is driving. Because cars are soo incredibly dangerous. Short of weapons (which are designed to be harmful) cars are pretty much the most dangerous thing any given citizen will do - both to themselves and to other citizens. Yet, they have such momentum that they are seen legislatively as the default position of innocence.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-01-17/cctv-vision-shows-alleged-drunk-driver-on-boardwalk/9336830

As I think I said elsewhere - if I were running the country I would basically be zero tolerance on this stuff. Not everyone is meant to drive.

Unfortunately, the way this country works, if you took that approach, you wouldn't be running the country for long. Threaten to take away Australians' so-called "right" to drive, and they get nasty. :(

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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby Comedian » Tue Jan 23, 2018 1:45 pm

Cyclophiliac wrote:
Comedian wrote:
antigee wrote:this looks like a clear cut case for PPE to mitigate potential harm from impact:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-01-23/p ... rs/9348416

if education fails then legislation will follow i guess? :-)

(putting aside that the advice is probably good)


See.. the thing Is I don't like "nanny" state laws. I think anything that citizens do.. sooner or later someone is going to do something stupid. Does that mean that everyone else should have to put up with legislative interference? I think no. (helmet law).

However where it gets a bit messy is driving. Because cars are soo incredibly dangerous. Short of weapons (which are designed to be harmful) cars are pretty much the most dangerous thing any given citizen will do - both to themselves and to other citizens. Yet, they have such momentum that they are seen legislatively as the default position of innocence.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-01-17/cctv-vision-shows-alleged-drunk-driver-on-boardwalk/9336830

As I think I said elsewhere - if I were running the country I would basically be zero tolerance on this stuff. Not everyone is meant to drive.

Unfortunately, the way this country works, if you took that approach, you wouldn't be running the country for long. Threaten to take away Australians' so-called "right" to drive, and they get nasty. :(

Yup... and that is exactly why it's such a mess. :oops:

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Stupid poms

Postby Thoglette » Fri Jan 26, 2018 11:34 am

Unfortunately the ABC fails to cover itself in glory in reporting the debate going on in the UK with useless .au vox pops and quotes only from "experts" on the "pro" side, who trot out the usual crap. Depressing all round.

UK cyclists fight campaign to make helmets compulsory
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Re: Safety fascists

Postby warthog1 » Fri Jan 26, 2018 12:51 pm

Thoglette wrote:Unfortunately the ABC fails to cover itself in glory in reporting the debate going on in the UK with useless .au vox pops and quotes only from "experts" on the "pro" side, who trot out the usual crap. Depressing all round.

UK cyclists fight campaign to make helmets compulsory


The Australian attitude of blind obeisance to legislation combined with our infatuation toward justifying unbalanced initiatives under the guise of "safety" is like a cancer.

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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby Mulger bill » Fri Jan 26, 2018 8:55 pm

...whatever the road rules, self-preservation is the absolute priority for a cyclist when mixing it with motorised traffic.
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Re: Stupid poms

Postby uart » Fri Jan 26, 2018 9:18 pm

Thoglette wrote:Unfortunately the ABC fails to cover itself in glory in reporting the debate going on in the UK with useless .au vox pops and quotes only from "experts" on the "pro" side, who trot out the usual crap. Depressing all round.

UK cyclists fight campaign to make helmets compulsory


Just wondering if there are any statistics available to compare head injuries by kms travelled (or by bicycle trips made) in the UK vs Australia. It would be interesting to compare.

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