Plant Based Diet Thread

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mikesbytes
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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby mikesbytes » Tue Feb 06, 2018 8:22 pm

I was chatting to an Italian today who has embarked on a low carb diet and he's uses vegetables to replace the pasta, but sprializing them. From what I'm gathering, he is using a device like this;

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Best-2PK-Fruit-Vegetable-Peeler-Spiralizer-Cutter-Twister-Food-Spiral-Slicer/111402890197?epid=2102841605&hash=item19f02133d5:g:mvcAAOSw~y9ZCfQX

Anyone doing this? What device are you using? Do you recommend it?
If the R-1 rule is broken, what happens to N+1?

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Tue Feb 06, 2018 9:17 pm

CKinnard wrote:I think it is a popular misconception that only plant based diets require supplementation.
hahaha.
People just have no idea.

If you looked at the diet 90% of Australians eat, they'd have to take more supplements than vegans.

A good illustration of CK comments are below.

Cronometer results for my father's average diet below. Being fairly standard, he has no deficiency in protein, or iron. With a high ferritin to prove it.
Image

My diet yesterday:
Image

In AU, hardly anyone would even think my father may have deficiencies. Yet I've had no shortage of ignorant people imply that I could be deficient in various dietary components.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Top_Bhoy » Sat Feb 10, 2018 1:05 pm

Nobody wrote:As for me, I just ordered zinc 15 mg, methyl B12 1000 mcg and liquid iodine 225 mcg.

I didn't previously ask but where do you order your supplements from?

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Sat Feb 10, 2018 2:04 pm

Top_Bhoy wrote:I didn't previously ask but where do you order your supplements from?


https://www.luckyvitamin.com/

It's a US company, but the shipping costs are reasonable at $10.45 AUD for my last order. They post through DHL who aren't particularly fast to Sydney. Probably 3 weeks or so. Also keep in mind that I'm not very experienced at supplement buying. I currently use them because they have a large range and their prices are reasonable. They also charge in AU dollars.

What I bought:

Description Unit price Qty Amount
Jarrow Formulas - Methyl B12 1000 mcg. - 100 Lozenges
$8.43 AUD
Eidon Ionic Minerals - Iodine Liquid Concentrate - 2 oz.
$27.01 AUD
Natural Factors - Zinc Citrate 15 mg. - 90 Tablets
$10.74 AUD

I know the B12 works well when taken daily under tongue, due to previous blood tests.
The iodine was chosen for economy and lack of additives, but being liquid might present a problem with shipping. I'll update if I have a problem.
The zinc I haven't ordered before but was chosen for its low dose. The pills I'm currently using need to be cut in half as they are 25mg.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Wed Feb 14, 2018 9:39 pm



I found this video informative, if nothing else but for the finding of where ideal intake is for strength gain. While bodybuilders are all about 1 g/lb or 2.2 g/kg, this study shows 1.6g/kg was the point of diminishing returns. Andrew recommends 1.2g/kg. I've been personally getting 1.1g/kg lately. I'll add that I find my level of protein also reflects strongly on how lean I am. I believe Andrew mentioned something about preferring to be leaner, but happy with the strength.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Thu Feb 15, 2018 4:18 pm

Nobody wrote:I found this video informative, if nothing else but for the finding of where ideal intake is for strength gain. While bodybuilders are all about 1 g/lb or 2.2 g/kg, this study shows 1.6g/kg was the point of diminishing returns. Andrew recommends 1.2g/kg. I've been personally getting 1.1g/kg lately. I'll add that I find my level of protein also reflects strongly on how lean I am. I believe Andrew mentioned something about preferring to be leaner, but happy with the strength.


Yeah I've thought about ideal protein intake for yonks considering it is so controversial in some circles.

My views are influenced by:

- we evolved being a lot more active, doing much more manual labor....so probably had an innate need for more protein to repair damaged muscles and stop them atrophying. This might explain some of the variance people have in dietary preference. Mesomorphic muscular types who hang out at gyms seem to definitely crave more protein, even if their nutrition knowledge is sparse. A mate of mine who just turned 70, was one of Brisbane's biggest and first gym owners. He was a genuine strong man and was regularly on the Burt Newton Show and in the paper doing amazing feats. He has always believed in 2-3g/kg lean bodyweight for protein...and reckons he can't lift as well without it. How much is mental is anyone's guess. But I do tend to think weightlifters also damage muscles and need to keep a slight oversupply of protein to sustain artificially high levels of muscle mass.

- we cannot store protein, and we have a threshold on how much we can utilize out of one meal - from memory, it's about 30g protein in one meal, for a 70kg body. If we eat more than this in one sitting, apparently it is utlized as an energy substrate, or excreted....but not stored.
This is one of my doubts about eating 1-2 meals day. Are we going to get all the protein we need?
My work in pro cycling was very aware of this, and it was a major reason for spreading protein intake across 5 meals/snacks a day.

- Doing 0.8g/kg might be doable if you are reasonably sedentary, but I actually think that would be difficult to achieve if you are taking 1500+ Cals a day, without going beserk on oil.

- Either way, too much protein acidifies and pulls Ca out of the bones to buffer...in addition to straining the kidneys in several other ways.

- apparently 60% of our protein needs are not met by diet, but amino acid recycling.

One thing is for sure, I am not going to have all this straight in my head before I die! :)
the devil and details!

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Top_Bhoy » Thu Feb 15, 2018 6:16 pm

Nobody wrote:
Top_Bhoy wrote:I didn't previously ask but where do you order your supplements from?


https://www.luckyvitamin.com/

It's a US company, but the shipping costs are reasonable at $10.45 AUD for my last order. They post through DHL who aren't particularly fast to Sydney. Probably 3 weeks or so. Also keep in mind that I'm not very experienced at supplement buying. I currently use them because they have a large range and their prices are reasonable. They also charge in AU dollars.

What I bought:

Description Unit price Qty Amount
Jarrow Formulas - Methyl B12 1000 mcg. - 100 Lozenges
$8.43 AUD
Eidon Ionic Minerals - Iodine Liquid Concentrate - 2 oz.
$27.01 AUD
Natural Factors - Zinc Citrate 15 mg. - 90 Tablets
$10.74 AUD

I know the B12 works well when taken daily under tongue, due to previous blood tests.
The iodine was chosen for economy and lack of additives, but being liquid might present a problem with shipping. I'll update if I have a problem.
The zinc I haven't ordered before but was chosen for its low dose. The pills I'm currently using need to be cut in half as they are 25mg.


Thanks for that.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby mikesbytes » Thu Feb 15, 2018 7:13 pm

Yeh the numbers thing with protein is not as simple as n.n gms/Kg LBM, that figure varies vastly depending on the type and quantity of activity being undertaken. And even more important is the timing of delivery which fits in well with CK's comment about 5 meals a day. It's quite common for someone to consume too much protein (according to their relevant calculation) and still have insufficient protein for the repair cycle.

Having said that people want the simple answer and n.n gms/Kg LBM is the simple answer despite many not knowing their LBM. I have pondered a table that describes the activity on one access, has the LBM on the other access and provides a gms figure in the body. Should also note that the repair period is typically 48 hours.

And its this variability of protein intake that makes me not like those Protein/Fat/Carb ratios as an increase (or decrease) in protein isn't necessarily going to be with a change in overall calories. However at the same time I like it kept simple which those ratios do provide
If the R-1 rule is broken, what happens to N+1?

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Thu Feb 15, 2018 8:54 pm

mikesbytes wrote:Having said that people want the simple answer and n.n gms/Kg LBM is the simple answer despite many not knowing their LBM. I have pondered a table that describes the activity on one access, has the LBM on the other access and provides a gms figure in the body. Should also note that the repair period is typically 48 hours.


I know Team Sky and British Cycling people who have developed spreadsheets for optimizing nutrient intake around training schedules, especially protein. They also time supplements - BCAA and beta alanine were some I was aware of, which seem ubiquitous in bro science.

Protein is taken seriously on the grand tours, with a lot going into every snack in the saddle. When a 65kg rider is taking 7000-8000 Calories per race day
-> 8000Cals * 22% protein / 4 Cals/g / 65kg*0.95LBM = 6.6g/kg LBM
which blows all the populist advice out of the water.

Sleep ecg and key hormones are also monitored to identify overtraining, or recovery quality during competition.
Nevertheless, as the Team Sky physician said to me, even if all this nutrient micromanagement is bollocks, it has a powerful placebo effect on the lads.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Baalzamon » Thu Feb 15, 2018 9:58 pm

Nobody wrote:
Top_Bhoy wrote:I didn't previously ask but where do you order your supplements from?


https://www.luckyvitamin.com/

It's a US company, but the shipping costs are reasonable at $10.45 AUD for my last order. They post through DHL who aren't particularly fast to Sydney. Probably 3 weeks or so. Also keep in mind that I'm not very experienced at supplement buying. I currently use them because they have a large range and their prices are reasonable. They also charge in AU dollars.

What I bought:

Description Unit price Qty Amount
Jarrow Formulas - Methyl B12 1000 mcg. - 100 Lozenges
$8.43 AUD
Eidon Ionic Minerals - Iodine Liquid Concentrate - 2 oz.
$27.01 AUD
Natural Factors - Zinc Citrate 15 mg. - 90 Tablets
$10.74 AUD

I know the B12 works well when taken daily under tongue, due to previous blood tests.
The iodine was chosen for economy and lack of additives, but being liquid might present a problem with shipping. I'll update if I have a problem.
The zinc I haven't ordered before but was chosen for its low dose. The pills I'm currently using need to be cut in half as they are 25mg.

FYI
au.iherb.com
Jarrow Formulas - Methyl B12 1000 mcg. - 100 Lozenges
$8.02 AUD
Eidon Ionic Minerals - Iodine Liquid Concentrate $27.04
Natural Factors - Zinc Citrate 15 mg. - 90 Tablets $7.16

And they use Aus post and DHL. I have had stuff in 4 days via DHL from them. Aus post 2 weeks. I'm not sure how long your iodine lasts you but I get get bulletproof Iodine 60 tabs from optimoz.com.au with express shipping
Masi Speciale CX 2008 - Brooks B17 special saddle, Garmin Edge 810
Image

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Fri Feb 16, 2018 11:06 am

Baalzamon wrote:FYI...And they use Aus post and DHL. I have had stuff in 4 days via DHL from them. Aus post 2 weeks. I'm not sure how long your iodine lasts you but I get get bulletproof Iodine 60 tabs from optimoz.com.au with express shipping

Thanks. I'll probably try iherb next time. As I said, I'm not very experienced at buying vitamins and minerals.
The iodine I got has 450 serves, so should do me for more than a year.

CKinnard wrote:My views are influenced by: ...

- we cannot store protein, and we have a threshold on how much we can utilize out of one meal - from memory, it's about 30g protein in one meal, for a 70kg body. If we eat more than this in one sitting, apparently it is utlized as an energy substrate, or excreted....but not stored.
This is one of my doubts about eating 1-2 meals day. Are we going to get all the protein we need?
My work in pro cycling was very aware of this, and it was a major reason for spreading protein intake across 5 meals/snacks a day.

New from Popper.


CKinnard wrote:- Doing 0.8g/kg might be doable if you are reasonably sedentary, but I actually think that would be difficult to achieve if you are taking 1500+ Cals a day, without going beserk on oil.

I found it fairly easy by eating mainly fruit, with little grain and no legumes/nuts.

CKinnard wrote:- Either way, too much protein acidifies and pulls Ca out of the bones to buffer...in addition to straining the kidneys in several other ways.

Although the professional bodybuilders that die younger, usually die from heart problems. From the little I know, kidney failure is not uncommon either.

CKinnard wrote:One thing is for sure, I am not going to have all this straight in my head before I die! :)
the devil and details!

I don't need to. Just need to get the big picture outline for the general direction and then I self experiment from there. :)

CKinnard wrote:Nevertheless, as the Team Sky physician said to me, even if all this nutrient micromanagement is bollocks, it has a powerful placebo effect on the lads.

Likely the placebo effect is where it's at. 6.6g/kg is over the top protein worship IMO and possibly a performance inhibitor. Since it's more difficult to digest.
Last edited by Nobody on Fri Feb 16, 2018 12:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby mikesbytes » Fri Feb 16, 2018 12:16 pm

Nobody wrote:Although most bodybuilders usually die from heart problems. From the little I know, kidney failure appears regularly also.

While not having the evidence, I highly suspect that the BB's I have trained with were taking steroids. The power lifters were different, they were clean as they get tested

And as we all know there's a limit to how much protein the body can process, so I can't see the reason for the protein level that CK mentioned for that cycling team. However it does bring up the point of what happens with extreme endurance athletes, despite the low loads they are still damaging their muscles but do those muscles repair themselves during the activity or does the repair phase start after the body is no longer under the stress of the activity?
If the R-1 rule is broken, what happens to N+1?

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Fri Feb 16, 2018 12:54 pm

mikesbytes wrote:While not having the evidence, I highly suspect that the BB's I have trained with were taking steroids. The power lifters were different, they were clean as they get tested

And as we all know there's a limit to how much protein the body can process, so I can't see the reason for the protein level that CK mentioned for that cycling team. However it does bring up the point of what happens with extreme endurance athletes, despite the low loads they are still damaging their muscles but do those muscles repair themselves during the activity or does the repair phase start after the body is no longer under the stress of the activity?

I'm glad you highlighted my comment because it showed I needed to re-phase it. Which has been done.

As to your question (if it wasn't a general question to all) I don't know.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Fri Feb 16, 2018 1:20 pm

Happier days. Just got my blood test results back and they're looking better, except for TSH. Which may indicate I need an iodine supplement. Fortunately some is on the way.

Image

In the stage of life where cholesterol and glucose are usually rising, mine have dropped. Along with my blood pressure. :D
Total cholesterol is now only 52% of the 6.5 mmol/L I started with.
I think some of that would be adding more almonds, to 20g/d. Some may be the reduced blood iron level. As iron is an oxidising agent, it is considered to increase inflammation.

Image

B12 and vit D are quite high. The vit D probably has more to do with being taken in summer, since I only get my D from sunlight.
TSH as gone up 66%, so I'll be interested to see if it goes down again once I've been supplementing iodine for some time.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Sat Feb 17, 2018 7:50 am

Nobody wrote:I found it fairly easy by eating mainly fruit, with little grain and no legumes/nuts.

Although the professional bodybuilders that die younger, usually die from heart problems. From the little I know, kidney failure is not uncommon either.

I don't need to. Just need to get the big picture outline for the general direction and then I self experiment from there. :)

Likely the placebo effect is where it's at. 6.6g/kg is over the top protein worship IMO and possibly a performance inhibitor. Since it's more difficult to digest.


N, are you still doing mainly fruit?
I think body builders are pushing the envelope in many ways, bad ways. To sustain masses of muscle that would disappear if they didn't lift silly weights day in day out, it's safe to say they are prematurely wearing multiple systems out.

Re grand tour nutrition, there's several key criteria that conflict. They need clean energy and fast repair/recovery...AND the restrictor is they don't want lots of fiber because that adds weight and water binding weight. and increases need to toilet. Riding 4-6 hours competitively is a very unnatural activity!

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Sat Feb 17, 2018 10:17 am

CKinnard wrote:N, are you still doing mainly fruit?

Yes [as he eats half a 7kg watermelon for breakfast]. Usually about 15+ serves a day. Just this watermelon should be 1.5kg+ net, which is 10+ serves.

CKinnard wrote:I think body builders are pushing the envelope in many ways, bad ways...it's safe to say they are prematurely wearing multiple systems out.

Agree.
When I see interviews with those who have outlived most. I often find - although active daily - they aren't into exercise. Although they definitely exist, I'm yet to meet anyone over 90 yo who had an interest in vigorous exercise. My (adopted) grandfather on my mother's side lived to 95 and believed in going for a walk daily (died of blood infection). But he was the most active I knew. My (adopted) grandfather on my father's side lived to 93 (died of heart/atherosclerosis related problems AFAIK). He worked until 2 weeks before he died, but it was a desk job AFAIK. My genetic father is 90 this year. He doesn't do anything that I know of. He's had 2 strokes already and his father died of a stroke (which is why I think a stroke is in my future if I don't keep eating healthy). My wifes grandmother lived to 96. She had a very poor diet and smoked most of her life, including up until she died from cancer. Didn't exercise.


CKinnard wrote:Re grand tour nutrition, there's several key criteria that conflict. They need clean energy and fast repair/recovery...AND the restrictor is they don't want lots of fiber because that adds weight and water binding weight. and increases need to toilet. Riding 4-6 hours competitively is a very unnatural activity!

I wonder if it accelerates the ageing process. If I had to guess, I would say yes. But obviously nowhere near pro bodybuilder levels. In the end, cell division is limited and all that repairing has to come from somewhere.
Having said that, I still cycle and do a small amount of lifting, so I must have a death wish. :mrgreen:

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Sat Feb 17, 2018 8:42 pm

Nobody wrote:I wonder if it accelerates the ageing process. If I had to guess, I would say yes. But obviously nowhere near pro bodybuilder levels. In the end, cell division is limited and all that repairing has to come from somewhere.
Having said that, I still cycle and do a small amount of lifting, so I must have a death wish. :mrgreen:


Just as you rarely hear on BNA about the Masters cyclists who crash in crits, and are never the same again, and give up racing altogether, you never hear about the Masters cyclists who have to get pacemakers....but I know of 8 who have had them inserted in the last 7 years.

At the end of the day, we are organic matter, and will end up compost. Some of us have got genetic or congenital time bombs waiting to explode, and others don't feel anything while smashing their hearts riding at high intensity and doing big climbs.
Nevertheless, there's no prize for being the oldest person in the nursing home!!!
Incidentally, I've been very busy in clinic. Had 8 low backs in a row yesterday none of which were slim or WFPB! :lol:
and went in for 5 hours today to decrease a waiting list rather than go listen to my progressively boring carnivore coffee mates.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Sun Feb 18, 2018 2:23 pm

CKinnard wrote:Just as you rarely hear on BNA about the Masters cyclists who crash in crits, and are never the same again, and give up racing altogether, you never hear about the Masters cyclists who have to get pacemakers....but I know of 8 who have had them inserted in the last 7 years.

Thanks for the insight. As you would know, the pacemakers probably come from not ideal genetics, combined with too much training and therefore not enough recovery for their age. But if you asked them if they'd do it all again, most of them probably would.

CKinnard wrote:Nevertheless, there's no prize for being the oldest person in the nursing home!!!

There's no prise for being the youngest either.
However I get your point about balancing the longevity risk against the enjoyment of life experience.

CKinnard wrote:Incidentally, I've been very busy in clinic. Had 8 low backs in a row yesterday none of which were slim or WFPB! :lol:

So did you make your day more difficult and read them the riot act about their diet? Or did you discern their type and not bother? This is why I'm starting to cut GPs and medical people some slack in regard to trying to change people. Almost all the time it's not worth their effort. If only there was an easy way to determine if people were receptive, without offending people about their poor diet. I've found that diet can be more of a dangerous conversation topic than either politics or religion.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Sun Feb 18, 2018 3:20 pm

Nobody wrote:So did you make your day more difficult and read them the riot act about their diet? Or did you discern their type and not bother? This is why I'm starting to cut GPs and medical people some slack in regard to trying to change people. Almost all the time it's not worth their effort. If only there was an easy way to determine if people were receptive, without offending people about their poor diet. I've found that diet can be more of a dangerous conversation topic than either politics or religion.


Boy, could I tell you some stories!
When I am in clinic, I do bring up "nutrition" and its impact on healing....but I learned quickly not to push a message too far from the median.
Firstly I raise the wisdom of eating at least 5 and 2 (veg and fruit), in accord with the guidelines.

Based on the reception that gets, the next rung on the ladder is Blue Zones, which I present as try to have 2 days a week with no animal products (dairy or meat) and keep flesh under 500g/wk if sedentary, <700g if manual worker....and aim for a minimum 7cups vege a day.

Increasing the fibrous carbs is something I raise as a strong weight loss strategy (nutrient density & nutritarian concepts).

I only venture beyond that 4 or 5 times out of 80 odd consults.
Those patients are generally more informed and motivated to reach some goal, or have messed with vegetarianism already.

Yesterday I had a 16yo schoolboy who is a top soccer player. He's had knee injuries interrupt his stellar progress.
He is highly motivated and he wants to know about optimum nutrition, so I'll go deeper into things with him.
It highlights that there's not a lot of appropriate books on nutrition for teens, where the message gets dumbed down and shortened enough.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Mon Feb 19, 2018 2:25 pm

Nobody wrote:The iodine was chosen for economy and lack of additives, but being liquid might present a problem with shipping. I'll update if I have a problem.

Didn't have a problem with the iodine. The order took 14 days to arrive from order date. I've started the recommended 225 mcg/d dose. I don't expect to feel anything different. I'll see what happens.

_________________________________________________________________

CKinnard wrote:Boy, could I tell you some stories!
When I am in clinic, I do bring up "nutrition" and its impact on healing....but I learned quickly not to push a message too far from the median...

Yesterday I had a 16yo schoolboy who is a top soccer player. He's had knee injuries interrupt his stellar progress.
He is highly motivated and he wants to know about optimum nutrition, so I'll go deeper into things with him.
It highlights that there's not a lot of appropriate books on nutrition for teens, where the message gets dumbed down and shortened enough.

Thanks for the explanation of what you do. Makes sense.

As for there not being a lot of appropriate books on nutrition information for teens. I would argue that there isn't a lot of concise books for the general population either. I've read quite a few but I wasn't that much wiser on the specifics. Plenty for just getting started, but none that I've read really go that deeply into what you should be doing or eating to protect your health long term on a WFPO diet. Or what you could have problems with down the line. Too much sugar coating IMO. Even if they did touch on it, it usually didn't go very deep into what should be eaten or avoided. Issues like EPA/DHA, iodine, zinc, iron (if a woman or particularly aerobically active). Even B12 isn't as easy to get right as they make it appear and I was, or was becoming, B12 deficient while following standard advice I read. Vit D was another one that I believe I became deficient in. Zinc is hard to test well, so I take it daily and it also appears to help with too much iron absorption in my system.

In contrast it looks like Jack Norris has updated his site, which looks more helpful than most.
https://veganhealth.org/
http://jacknorrisrd.com/
I haven't read his books, so can't recommend. But they may be more useful than a lot of them.
His calcium recommendations on his site don't appear as clear as previously. But I get the impression he is sticking with the gov recommendations of about 1000 mg/d and below 1400 mg/d. He is playing it safe, but I disagree for the reasons of the danger with Ca supplements and the research I've seen that 500 mg/d is quite adequate for people on a WFPO, low acidity type diet. Maybe that's the difference as his site appears to be vegan, not WFPO SOS free. In the end I believe the WHO would know more about it than Jack. But as a whole his site is a credit to him for trying to inform vegans about all the possible problems that may arise. It was his personal site that I found the recommendation for 1500 mcg/d of methyl B12. Testing (above) has shown that 1000 mcg/d works well for me.

Calcium
WHO:
http://www.who.int/dietphysicalactivity/publications/trs916/en/gsfao_osteo.pdf
Chinese study on vegan diet and Calcium.
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/wol1/doi/10.1002/jbmr.2874/abstract

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby mikesbytes » Mon Feb 19, 2018 2:48 pm

What's the difference between nutrition for a teen and an adult?
If the R-1 rule is broken, what happens to N+1?

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Mon Feb 19, 2018 9:30 pm

mikesbytes wrote:What's the difference between nutrition for a teen and an adult?


yeah sorry I was sloppy in explaining that.
I am referring to effectively communicating the message.
Teens on average have shorter attention spans, less cooking vocab and skills.
So diet info aimed at them needs to be presented more concisely, prescriptively...more simple recipes and meal plans.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Fri Feb 23, 2018 1:12 pm

I thought some might find this video interesting.

Comment on the promotion of EPA+DHA supplements
EPA+DHA supplements should not be necessary unless one's omega-3 index test shows less than 4.4 (@3:54). Since the algae derived EPA+DHA supplements are relatively expensive (about 50c/d). Fuhrman sells and is a promoter of these, so there is no surprise he is using them himself.


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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Sat Feb 24, 2018 2:12 pm

Nobody wrote:Or what you could have problems with down the line. Too much sugar coating IMO. Even if they did touch on it, it usually didn't go very deep into what should be eaten or avoided. Issues like EPA/DHA, iodine, zinc, iron (if a woman or particularly aerobically active). Even B12 isn't as easy to get right as they make it appear and I was, or was becoming, B12 deficient while following standard advice I read. Vit D was another one that I believe I became deficient in. Zinc is hard to test well, so I take it daily and it also appears to help with too much iron absorption in my system.

In contrast it looks like Jack Norris has updated his site, which looks more helpful than most.


Yes, the sugar coating is my concern too, as is the universal fix all, faith based approach....

The more health pros I meet, and the more varied my experience in different clinical settings, the more I see glaring holes in nutrition advice. Unfortunately, the norm is that few health pros including dietitians have a deep grasp of the issues, and therefore default to the consensus within their profession. I had a patient yesterday who has been told she is iron deficient. I brought up my iron algo and shot a few questions at her re other nutritional advice she had received - nothing about calcium, zinc, vitamin c, or role of diseases of the gut. Just told to eat more red meat.

It is like GPs and vaccinations. If they actually read the literature, they'd realize it is not broad enough to justify the emphatic stance taken by govt and public health officials re vaccines. Autoimmune diseases, allergies, autism, learning disabilities, and emotional issues in children are rising at truly alarming rates, well beyond that explained by definition changes and health professional awareness. Andrew Wakefield made a good point recently - what's the official public health authority line going to be in 15 years if the autism rate continues to ascend at current rates, leading to 50% of boys on the autism spectrum? Will it still be that "we don't know the cause of rising autism, allergies, and auto-immune diseases, but we are absolutely certain beyond a shadow of doubt it has nothing to do with vaccines or the growing schedule....and we therefore mandate every child be vaccinated....and we refuse to do better controlled trials into the issue"???!!!

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Sat Feb 24, 2018 6:59 pm

CKinnard wrote:Yes, the sugar coating is my concern too, as is the universal fix all, faith based approach....

The more health pros I meet, and the more varied my experience in different clinical settings, the more I see glaring holes in nutrition advice. Unfortunately, the norm is that few health pros including dietitians have a deep grasp of the issues, and therefore default to the consensus within their profession. I had a patient yesterday who has been told she is iron deficient. I brought up my iron algo and shot a few questions at her re other nutritional advice she had received - nothing about calcium, zinc, vitamin c, or role of diseases of the gut. Just told to eat more red meat.

I've heard that a GP advised a woman I know with low iron to "eat more read meat" also. So it appears to be common advice. As is "drink less sugary drinks" to those with increasing fasting glucose. Or so one of the guards told me last night at work. I explained the solution to him, but he's one of those people who'd rather ignore it, or take another pill - he's already taking one for hypertension - rather than do anything to change his diet. As for sweet/sugary products, the guard said he doesn't like them. So I doubt that's the cause.

I know they are trying to help, but I think GPs are playing a dangerous game by giving dietary advice that isn't backed by the body of science.

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