KOMDefender - Do I flag this ride?

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Mububban
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Re: KOMDefender - Do I flag this ride?

Postby Mububban » Wed Apr 11, 2018 1:28 pm

If the original thread still has relevant/helpful information, better to resurrect an old thread than start a new one and reinvent the wheel.

However if the topic at hand has somehow changed significantly in the meantime and old info would confuse things rather than assist, better to start a new thread.
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queequeg
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Re: KOMDefender - Do I flag this ride?

Postby queequeg » Wed Apr 11, 2018 4:15 pm

Philistine wrote:
queequeg wrote:
I commented on one of his rides by just posting the link to the strava support article on how to set the correct activity type, hoping he’d get the hint...obviously not


Flag the ride(s). If new dodgy rides appear , flag them. If he keeps on going and / or rides you have previously flagged reappear, go to Strava Support and file a complaint. You have to hold their hands a bit - Strava name of "cyclist", links to the rides in dispute, and so on! You will get an acknowledgement within minutes, and a more detailed response (usually) within a day. Be persistent and they will fix the problem.

BTW - once your KOM disappears from the "my profile" screen, it won't come back for several weeks after the shonky KOM has gone.


Grr...just had more notifications from the rider. I flagged it, then 2 minutes later I get another notification for a lost KOM to the same rider on a different day.

I have submitted a Support Ticket to get some traction.
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Philistine
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Re: KOMDefender - Do I flag this ride?

Postby Philistine » Thu Apr 12, 2018 9:13 am

Strava has recently modified its upload page to include a box you can tick to "add a friend" to your ride - in other words, to get your ride copied to someone else's account! I can understand that Strava might see this as a mechanism to recruit new members, but surely it is facilitating some unfair distortions of segment leaderboards.

There are two cyclists active in my local area, who share a surname. They could be brothers but I get the impression they are father and son. They ride almost everywhere together, and one of them carries a Garmin (or equivalent) and uploads each ride twice, once for himself and once for his riding partner. One of them is obviously a rider of some ability. The other might be just as good, but he could just as easily be limping around half a kilometre behind his mate. Even if they rode the whole journey in one another's wheel tracks. two separate Garmins would not yield identical results.

Am I Robinson Crusoe for regarding this as sharp practice at best and cheating at worst?

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g-boaf
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Re: KOMDefender - Do I flag this ride?

Postby g-boaf » Thu Apr 12, 2018 9:18 am

Philistine wrote:Strava has recently modified its upload page to include a box you can tick to "add a friend" to your ride - in other words, to get your ride copied to someone else's account! I can understand that Strava might see this as a mechanism to recruit new members, but surely it is facilitating some unfair distortions of segment leaderboards.

There are two cyclists active in my local area, who share a surname. They could be brothers but I get the impression they are father and son. They ride almost everywhere together, and one of them carries a Garmin (or equivalent) and uploads each ride twice, once for himself and once for his riding partner. One of them is obviously a rider of some ability. The other might be just as good, but he could just as easily be limping around half a kilometre behind his mate. Even if they rode the whole journey in one another's wheel tracks. two separate Garmins would not yield identical results.

Am I Robinson Crusoe for regarding this as sharp practice at best and cheating at worst?


Your area is Western Sydney/North Western Sydney I guess? I think I know the two riders, they are both good and they ride together at high speed. Both of them do big kilometres. Neither is "limping" around behind the other.

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Re: KOMDefender - Do I flag this ride?

Postby Philistine » Thu Apr 12, 2018 9:29 am

g-boaf wrote:
Your area is Western Sydney/North Western Sydney I guess? I think I know the two riders, they are both good and they ride together at high speed. Both of them do big kilometres. Neither is "limping" around behind the other.


Thank you for the quick response. I am somewhat relieved to hear that they can both ride. It would be nice though if they could spring for the price of a second Garmin.

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MichaelB
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Re: KOMDefender - Do I flag this ride?

Postby MichaelB » Thu Apr 12, 2018 9:56 am

So grateful that I neither have the ability to get KOM’s nor worry about whether I lose them or not.

I guess though, to some it’s a big deal and is a result of much hard work, so can understand if it’s important to them.

I have enough other stuff in my life to worry about without adding to it !!

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Re: KOMDefender - Do I flag this ride?

Postby g-boaf » Thu Apr 12, 2018 9:58 am

Philistine wrote:
g-boaf wrote:
Your area is Western Sydney/North Western Sydney I guess? I think I know the two riders, they are both good and they ride together at high speed. Both of them do big kilometres. Neither is "limping" around behind the other.


Thank you for the quick response. I am somewhat relieved to hear that they can both ride. It would be nice though if they could spring for the price of a second Garmin.


Totally identical results, like completely? I find that hard to believe, maybe it is, but maybe not. Really though, is it that important?

Not like any of us are going to be challenging for those KOMs. 39km in less than 1 hour, and that's not on a motorway shoulder either. I did just over 1 hour yesterday. Could be totally wrong.

MichaelB wrote:So grateful that I neither have the ability to get KOM’s nor worry about whether I lose them or not.

I guess though, to some it’s a big deal and is a result of much hard work, so can understand if it’s important to them.

I have enough other stuff in my life to worry about without adding to it !!


I'm with you on that.

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Re: KOMDefender - Do I flag this ride?

Postby Philistine » Thu Apr 12, 2018 11:50 am

g-boaf wrote:
Not like any of us are going to be challenging for those KOMs. 39km in less than 1 hour, and that's not on a motorway shoulder either. I did just over 1 hour yesterday. Could be totally wrong.



I don't think we are talking about the same two riders. I have not seen 39 km in less than 1 hour from the two I was referencing. I am not going to "name and shame" because I am not sure they have actually broken any rules. I am just not comfortable about two riders posting the same file, and there is no doubt in my mind that that is what they have been doing. The files are not just similar, they are the same.

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Re: KOMDefender - Do I flag this ride?

Postby g-boaf » Thu Apr 12, 2018 12:23 pm

Philistine wrote:
g-boaf wrote:
Not like any of us are going to be challenging for those KOMs. 39km in less than 1 hour, and that's not on a motorway shoulder either. I did just over 1 hour yesterday. Could be totally wrong.



I don't think we are talking about the same two riders. I have not seen 39 km in less than 1 hour from the two I was referencing. I am not going to "name and shame" because I am not sure they have actually broken any rules. I am just not comfortable about two riders posting the same file, and there is no doubt in my mind that that is what they have been doing. The files are not just similar, they are the same.


Yeah, different ones certainly then. In your example, I just don't see the point in doing that.

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Re: KOMDefender - Do I flag this ride?

Postby jasonc » Thu Apr 12, 2018 12:27 pm

jasonc wrote:this guy
http://www.strava.com/activities/1251523437
https://www.strava.com/activities/1251523407
https://www.strava.com/activities/1251523421
same pattern all the time. rides for a bit. in the car for a bit (no cadence, speed goes up) then rides a bit more. someone has previously flagged his rides but he's got around that somehow.

update on these 3 rides. the flag is back on them.i don't have the KOMs but i hope the people who do appreciate it. i more hope this rider works out how to hit stop on his garmin occasionally

edit: just checked an important page:

KOMs / CRs

Kirk Darnell has no KOMs.
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Re: KOMDefender - Do I flag this ride?

Postby Philistine » Thu Apr 12, 2018 4:20 pm

MichaelB wrote:So grateful that I neither have the ability to get KOM’s nor worry about whether I lose them or not.

I guess though, to some it’s a big deal and is a result of much hard work, so can understand if it’s important to them.


It is better to have KOM'd and lost than never to have KOM'd at all.

Seriously though, if I snag a KOM what have I actually won? If I lose it again, what have I lost? Winning KOMs matters to me and I don't even understand why. Seeing Strava cheats in action annoys the hell out of me, at least in part because it is so easy to cheat, it gains you nothing - how can anyone get any sense of satisfaction from "winning" a KOM riding on a train - and it takes away from the person who won "it" fair and square (even though we can't really define what "it" is).

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Re: KOMDefender - Do I flag this ride?

Postby Philistine » Thu Apr 12, 2018 4:42 pm

jasonc wrote:Kirk Darnell has no KOMs.


When you first brought this up, I checked and he had several pages of KOMs, and the ones that I clicked on were all dodgy.

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Re: KOMDefender - Do I flag this ride?

Postby MichaelB » Thu Apr 12, 2018 9:28 pm

Actually, I do have a (or more correct, had one at one time) and shared it with a mate, and it was a short and super steep climb that went from the main road to our Air BnB place in Pognana Lario on the shores of Lake Como.

It was a newly created segment (that we made), and it has since been taken over.

Life does go on, and couldn’t care, but can understand those who do.

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Re: KOMDefender - Do I flag this ride?

Postby g-boaf » Fri Apr 13, 2018 12:08 am

MichaelB wrote:Actually, I do have a (or more correct, had one at one time) and shared it with a mate, and it was a short and super steep climb that went from the main road to our Air BnB place in Pognana Lario on the shores of Lake Como.

It was a newly created segment (that we made), and it has since been taken over.

Life does go on, and couldn’t care, but can understand those who do.


KOMs over there are a lot harder to get with all those pro riders zooming up those mountain passes at crazy speed. :o

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Re: KOMDefender - Do I flag this ride?

Postby Philistine » Fri Apr 13, 2018 8:46 am

There is more to Strava than KOMs. If you are currently number 6875 on one of the M7 Cycleway segments (with their casts of thousands) and you manage to pull out a ride that bumps you up to 6639, you have achieved a small win, and you are entitled to feel good about yourself. Strava is virtual racing - racing without the licence fees, registrations, or the fixed, unnegotiable timetable of a real race! On the surface you are competing against invisible strangers using stage names, but in reality you are lining up against yourself. You are locked in mortal combat with the rider you were yesterday, last week, last year.

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Re: KOMDefender - Do I flag this ride?

Postby queequeg » Fri Apr 13, 2018 10:53 am

Philistine wrote:There is more to Strava than KOMs. If you are currently number 6875 on one of the M7 Cycleway segments (with their casts of thousands) and you manage to pull out a ride that bumps you up to 6639, you have achieved a small win, and you are entitled to feel good about yourself. Strava is virtual racing - racing without the licence fees, registrations, or the fixed, unnegotiable timetable of a real race! On the surface you are competing against invisible strangers using stage names, but in reality you are lining up against yourself. You are locked in mortal combat with the rider you were yesterday, last week, last year.


Yep, I only have one segment on the M7 that matters - the Bubbler Run (19.2km) https://www.strava.com/segments/7462339

You might call it cheating, but a lot of the riders ahead of me have done their times in a group, not solo. However, they are still legitimate rides. My time was solo. I had a club mate hanging on my wheel sucking in oxygen as much as he could, and I towed him to a PB even though he lost my wheel a few km from the end, and I still did a PB even though I was sitting up and waiting for him a few times. If only I'd dropped the hammer from the start and never looked back lol
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Re: KOMDefender - Do I flag this ride?

Postby Philistine » Fri Apr 13, 2018 1:18 pm

queequeg wrote:You might call it cheating, but a lot of the riders ahead of me have done their times in a group, not solo. However, they are still legitimate rides.


I don't call it cheating. I am less than thrilled if I lose a KOM to a participant in a group ride, but I do not question its legitimacy, unless there are other factors in play.

Regarding your particular M7 ride, I wonder how many of the cyclists ahead of you on the leader board rode on the M7 proper - which is faster - rather than riding on the cycleway?

I actually did lose a KOM to a group ride a couple of months ago. I was relegated from first to about eighth in one fell swoop. To add insult to injury, there are now three joint KOM holders sharing the new official Strava time. There also have exactly the same true average speed, which is derived from the elapsed time over the segment as measured, rather than the elapsed time over the calculated segment distance (not the same thing). What does this mean? It means the three of them checked which of their three separate files gave them the most favourable result, and shared it. I call that cheating.

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Re: KOMDefender - Do I flag this ride?

Postby queequeg » Fri Apr 13, 2018 2:17 pm

Philistine wrote:
queequeg wrote:You might call it cheating, but a lot of the riders ahead of me have done their times in a group, not solo. However, they are still legitimate rides.


I don't call it cheating. I am less than thrilled if I lose a KOM to a participant in a group ride, but I do not question its legitimacy, unless there are other factors in play.

Regarding your particular M7 ride, I wonder how many of the cyclists ahead of you on the leader board rode on the M7 proper - which is faster - rather than riding on the cycleway?

I actually did lose a KOM to a group ride a couple of months ago. I was relegated from first to about eighth in one fell swoop. To add insult to injury, there are now three joint KOM holders sharing the new official Strava time. There also have exactly the same true average speed, which is derived from the elapsed time over the segment as measured, rather than the elapsed time over the calculated segment distance (not the same thing). What does this mean? It means the three of them checked which of their three separate files gave them the most favourable result, and shared it. I call that cheating.


The nature of the Bubbler Segment is that it can't be matched by someone riding the M7 shoulder. At least, I have never seen this happen. The guy who holds the KOM is in my club. He is a super strong rider. His KOM was done in a group, but since he was on the front the whole time it was pretty much a solo effort, with everyone else hanging on for dear life! The guy just behind him on the segment did it completely solo. As a goal, 27:59 is where it's at :-)
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Re: KOMDefender - Do I flag this ride?

Postby g-boaf » Fri Apr 13, 2018 5:44 pm

Philistine wrote:
queequeg wrote:You might call it cheating, but a lot of the riders ahead of me have done their times in a group, not solo. However, they are still legitimate rides.


I don't call it cheating. I am less than thrilled if I lose a KOM to a participant in a group ride, but I do not question its legitimacy, unless there are other factors in play.

Regarding your particular M7 ride, I wonder how many of the cyclists ahead of you on the leader board rode on the M7 proper - which is faster - rather than riding on the cycleway?

I actually did lose a KOM to a group ride a couple of months ago. I was relegated from first to about eighth in one fell swoop. To add insult to injury, there are now three joint KOM holders sharing the new official Strava time. There also have exactly the same true average speed, which is derived from the elapsed time over the segment as measured, rather than the elapsed time over the calculated segment distance (not the same thing). What does this mean? It means the three of them checked which of their three separate files gave them the most favourable result, and shared it. I call that cheating.


I can certainly say that one of the riders high up on the M7 bollard to bollard leader board did use the cycleway properly, and was on a normal road bike, not a TT bike, no deep aero wheels, none of that stuff. If I'd uploaded my ride the other night on there (which I won't) I'd probably be pretty high up on the leaderboard as well. I rode nearly flat-out to make up being late by 30 minutes.

There will always be someone out there quicker who is probably just not using Strava. That's why I'm not fussed about it. And what happens if a couple of pro-riders come along? Your KOMs are gone. Same for the local track rider who destroys everyone else, even quite elite A graders.

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Re: KOMDefender - Do I flag this ride?

Postby Philistine » Fri Apr 13, 2018 8:57 pm

g-boaf wrote:There will always be someone out there quicker who is probably just not using Strava. That's why I'm not fussed about it. And what happens if a couple of pro-riders come along? Your KOMs are gone. Same for the local track rider who destroys everyone else, even quite elite A graders.


I have lost 4 1/2 KOMs (the 1/2 is a story all on its own, and I won't inflict it upon you at this time) to the local track rider who destroys everyone else, and I am actually OK with it. It gives me an indication of how I'm traveling compared to the very best the sport has to offer. Also, when the great man posts his rides on Strava, he is conferring a measure of respectability on a medium that many elite riders (and riders who think they're elite) tend to sneer at.

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Re: KOMDefender - Do I flag this ride?

Postby ldrcycles » Fri Apr 13, 2018 9:33 pm

I had the KOM for this segment (https://www.strava.com/segments/7711787?filter=overall) until the local mass start "ride" ie race course changed and I got knocked back to 5th. Myself and the bloke in 15th are the only ones in the top 60 to do it solo! Of course that's just an extra challenge :twisted:
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Re: KOMDefender - Do I flag this ride?

Postby queequeg » Fri Apr 13, 2018 10:19 pm

g-boaf wrote:
I can certainly say that one of the riders high up on the M7 bollard to bollard leader board did use the cycleway properly, and was on a normal road bike, not a TT bike, no deep aero wheels, none of that stuff. If I'd uploaded my ride the other night on there (which I won't) I'd probably be pretty high up on the leaderboard as well. I rode nearly flat-out to make up being late by 30 minutes.

There will always be someone out there quicker who is probably just not using Strava. That's why I'm not fussed about it. And what happens if a couple of pro-riders come along? Your KOMs are gone. Same for the local track rider who destroys everyone else, even quite elite A graders.


Our club does the Bubbler run once a week as an informal social thing when winter racing is off. I don't think anyone seriously chases the KOM, they just basically go as hard as they can until they reach the end, then cruise back to Bella Vista. By default, my leaderboards are all based around only my club, so unless we have a Pro rider join our club, I'd probably not even notice. Having said that, there's a bit of skill and luck involved with the M7 path, as the 90 degree left/right or right/left turns have been the undoing of many riders.
Would be good to see what a Pro rider can pump out on the bubbler run though :-)
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Re: KOMDefender - Do I flag this ride?

Postby g-boaf » Sat Apr 14, 2018 6:09 am

Philistine wrote:
g-boaf wrote:There will always be someone out there quicker who is probably just not using Strava. That's why I'm not fussed about it. And what happens if a couple of pro-riders come along? Your KOMs are gone. Same for the local track rider who destroys everyone else, even quite elite A graders.


I have lost 4 1/2 KOMs (the 1/2 is a story all on its own, and I won't inflict it upon you at this time) to the local track rider who destroys everyone else, and I am actually OK with it. It gives me an indication of how I'm traveling compared to the very best the sport has to offer. Also, when the great man posts his rides on Strava, he is conferring a measure of respectability on a medium that many elite riders (and riders who think they're elite) tend to sneer at.


He's a top person. Wealth of knowledge too.

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Re: KOMDefender - Do I flag this ride?

Postby Neddysmith » Mon Apr 16, 2018 10:44 am

I use strava to track my own progress, KMs and training efforts, and in general am more surprised if i return home with a top 10 finish or whatever, I do have 2 KOMs on very small local segments but honestly if someone takes it great just provides some incentive and some stage to give it another crack, i generally dont even know where segments are until i upload.

In saying this one of my KOMs was taken by someone, which i msg as it was clear they left their GPS on in the car, saying "congrats and good riding, but you sure didnt leave your GPS on, hahaha" as clearly averaging 70km on a street and then 65 going up some hills was done in the car when the rest of their rides they average closer to 22k. Anyways they removed that ride.

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Re: KOMDefender - Do I flag this ride?

Postby RobertL » Mon Apr 16, 2018 12:12 pm

Neddysmith wrote:I use strava to track my own progress, KMs and training efforts...


Me too.

Also, when I started riding "seriously" I decided to set myself a target. So I had to think of a legitimate target for a fat, middle-aged bloke. After some thought, I realised that there are a number of decent hill-climb Strava segments that I ride regularly - on group rides and solo. So I set myself a target of getting into the top 50% on all of them.

That seemed like a sensible target. I was nowhere near any of them at the time, but it seemed like a sensible goal. It was also pretty easy to keep track of.

I have now knocked off nearly all of them, so "Mission Accomplished!". Some of them proved quite easy, some not so. There's a couple that I haven't quite got yet, but they are all segments that I don't do very often, so I know that it is only a matter of time.
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