KOMDefender - Do I flag this ride?

vosadrian
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Re: KOMDefender - Do I flag this ride?

Postby vosadrian » Tue Apr 17, 2018 2:25 pm

I have a few KOMs, and I regularly (almost daily) get notices I lost my KOM. I leave them in my inbox, and once a week I check them. Typically around 90+% are people in a car. I just flag them and don't think twice. Sometimes something strange happens and the flag does not seem to take. I once (years ago) took this up with strava and they fixed it until a week or two later it returned. I don't find Strava that helpful for this sort of thing. They can fix something until the leaderboards are reprocessed and then it goes back.

I agree with most here. If you luck it with conditions or the right traffic, then fair game, but organised motorpacing is not on, and no electric or other assistance allowed. I also think special bikes (recumbant etc.) should have their own leaderboard.

Recently I have noticed people who seem to be intentionally driving in cars with Strava on just to annoy other Strava users. I guess they must not have much going on in their lives if that is their idea of fun.

And on that bubbler run segment.... my best time was in a bunch (10-12 or so). I was sitting mid bunch chatting with a mate for the few kms. There were intense sections, but generally not that hard and I was surprised how quick it was. We even sat up at the top of the M4 bridge to let a few stragglers get back on. My best solo time is about a minute slower. Admittedly not great wind conditions with a light head wind for second half, but I was a minute slower and I was ruined. Wish I had a power meter back then, as it would have been interesting to compare!! I reckon the solo effort was at least 50W more.
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queequeg
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Re: KOMDefender - Do I flag this ride?

Postby queequeg » Tue Apr 17, 2018 2:46 pm

vosadrian wrote:
I agree with most here. If you luck it with conditions or the right traffic, then fair game, but organised motorpacing is not on, and no electric or other assistance allowed. I also think special bikes (recumbant etc.) should have their own leaderboard.

Recently I have noticed people who seem to be intentionally driving in cars with Strava on just to annoy other Strava users. I guess they must not have much going on in their lives if that is their idea of fun.



There is a large number of activities now that you can select from to ensure you don't end up on the wrong leaderboard, but there is no recumbent bike ride there yet (there is a handcycle and an E-Bike though), and you can also now log wheelchair activities etc.

I keep getting notifications from a rider with an illegal overpowered e-bike doing ridiculous speeds uphill, because I hold one KOM in each direction on the M2, I was sometimes getting two notifications a day from this guy. Then, another 10 or 11 riders would also get notifications for all the other segments. Generally someone would flag him for any number of segments taken. I logged it with Strava and they just said to keep flagging him. It's just an annoyance as I know how hard it was to get some of those times under just right the conditions, and this guy just opens up the throttle and takes the KOM 5 times a week with no effort.

If you get the right tailwind, and opportunistic assist from a passing bus or whatever, then fair game...but riding a 750W e-bike at 55km/h..yeah, not really in the spirit of things.
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Philistine
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Re: KOMDefender - Do I flag this ride?

Postby Philistine » Tue Apr 17, 2018 5:32 pm

queequeg wrote:I know how hard it was to get some of those times under just right the conditions, and this guy just opens up the throttle and takes the KOM 5 times a week with no effort.


It gives me a charge to win a KOM and it deflates me to lose one, but what have I actually won or lost? There are no prizes given out, and, unless you are a member of a club (which I'm not), there is precious little in the way of peer recognition. All you really get is the sense of personal satisfaction - and you cannot even get that unless you won fair and square!

So why do cheats cheat? I can think of only one reason - they are such antisocial grubs that they get their jollies from spoiling things for other people! Strava should ban them permanently.

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g-boaf
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Re: KOMDefender - Do I flag this ride?

Postby g-boaf » Tue Apr 17, 2018 8:16 pm

queequeg wrote:
vosadrian wrote:
I agree with most here. If you luck it with conditions or the right traffic, then fair game, but organised motorpacing is not on, and no electric or other assistance allowed. I also think special bikes (recumbant etc.) should have their own leaderboard.

Recently I have noticed people who seem to be intentionally driving in cars with Strava on just to annoy other Strava users. I guess they must not have much going on in their lives if that is their idea of fun.



There is a large number of activities now that you can select from to ensure you don't end up on the wrong leaderboard, but there is no recumbent bike ride there yet (there is a handcycle and an E-Bike though), and you can also now log wheelchair activities etc.

I keep getting notifications from a rider with an illegal overpowered e-bike doing ridiculous speeds uphill, because I hold one KOM in each direction on the M2, I was sometimes getting two notifications a day from this guy. Then, another 10 or 11 riders would also get notifications for all the other segments. Generally someone would flag him for any number of segments taken. I logged it with Strava and they just said to keep flagging him. It's just an annoyance as I know how hard it was to get some of those times under just right the conditions, and this guy just opens up the throttle and takes the KOM 5 times a week with no effort.

If you get the right tailwind, and opportunistic assist from a passing bus or whatever, then fair game...but riding a 750W e-bike at 55km/h..yeah, not really in the spirit of things.


There are a few guys on out on the M7 on electric assist bikes riding at 40+km/h speeds, even up a hill. These are big guys, not the fit type of riders like our type. How do I know the speed he was doing? I put the foot down and stayed with him for a while, pushing out enormous power to do it. For extra giggles, he was rugged up like an eskimo on a warm day and hardly breaking a sweat.

I didn't lose any KOMs (I'm not on Strava) but I just thought it'd be good to stay with this guy and give him a bit of a shock.

Neddysmith
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Re: KOMDefender - Do I flag this ride?

Postby Neddysmith » Wed Apr 18, 2018 9:02 am

The whole KOM thing sort of makes me laugh as if you really want one or lots all you have to do is go and create your own segments and Bingo, OR just go searching for thos segments which arent riden by many people and therefore competition is far less.

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Re: KOMDefender - Do I flag this ride?

Postby RobertL » Wed Apr 18, 2018 9:31 am

Neddysmith wrote:The whole KOM thing sort of makes me laugh as if you really want one or lots all you have to do is go and create your own segments and Bingo, OR just go searching for thos segments which arent riden by many people and therefore competition is far less.


Creating your own segments does not usually work. Strava goes back and finds everyone who has ever ridden that segment to create its leaderboard.
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Philistine
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Re: KOMDefender - Do I flag this ride?

Postby Philistine » Wed Apr 18, 2018 10:02 am

:D
g-boaf wrote:For extra giggles, he was rugged up like an eskimo on a warm day and hardly breaking a sweat.


For shame. How politically incorrect of you. You're not supposed to call an eskimo an eskimo any more. The mot du jour is "inuit".

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Re: KOMDefender - Do I flag this ride?

Postby bychosis » Wed Apr 18, 2018 10:02 am

RobertL wrote:
Neddysmith wrote:The whole KOM thing sort of makes me laugh as if you really want one or lots all you have to do is go and create your own segments and Bingo, OR just go searching for thos segments which arent riden by many people and therefore competition is far less.


Creating your own segments does not usually work. Strava goes back and finds everyone who has ever ridden that segment to create its leaderboard.


I've got a KOM on each of the Strava art segments I've created, only ridden once each. Would take a very concious effort to duplicate, and if they do I'll be happy to lose a KOM.
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MichaelB
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Re: KOMDefender - Do I flag this ride?

Postby MichaelB » Wed Apr 18, 2018 11:49 am

bychosis wrote:
RobertL wrote:
Neddysmith wrote:The whole KOM thing sort of makes me laugh as if you really want one or lots all you have to do is go and create your own segments and Bingo, OR just go searching for thos segments which arent riden by many people and therefore competition is far less.


Creating your own segments does not usually work. Strava goes back and finds everyone who has ever ridden that segment to create its leaderboard.


I've got a KOM on each of the Strava art segments I've created, only ridden once each. Would take a very concious effort to duplicate, and if they do I'll be happy to lose a KOM.


Did just that. Got a screen shot of it for the record books and then didn't care after that :D :roll:

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silentC
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Re: KOMDefender - Do I flag this ride?

Postby silentC » Wed Apr 18, 2018 12:33 pm

Neddysmith wrote:The whole KOM thing sort of makes me laugh as if you really want one or lots all you have to do is go and create your own segments and Bingo, OR just go searching for thos segments which arent riden by many people and therefore competition is far less.

By the same token you could just go buy a cycling trophy and get it engraved with '[insert made up club name] A Grade champion 2018' with your name under it. But the only person you'd be fooling is yourself ;)

For me, KOMs are just a bit of fun competition, not that I've been in any shape to get one for about a year. But I know most of the cyclists around here and so it's all a bit of friendly rivalry really. Not to be taken too seriously. I've still got one and I'm not telling where it is in case any of you ever holiday here!
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vosadrian
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Re: KOMDefender - Do I flag this ride?

Postby vosadrian » Wed Apr 18, 2018 2:19 pm

I like the veloviewer take on KOMs. They have a metric where they look at the percentage of riders you are in front of for you best 100 segments and then do an average of the 100 segments for a veloviewer score. If you create segment in your driveway and you are KOM but nobody else has ridden it, you get a poor VV score. Most of my best VV score segments I am not KOM on... but I have made top 10 in a segment that 10,000 riders have ridden. For me that means more then getting heaps of KOMs that are easy pickings.

What do you get out of it. A good VV score or lots of KOMs is not something you can put on a badge and where proudly... it is all about personal satisfaction. Setting yourself goals and achieving those goals is very satisfying for me. It does not matter if anyone else knows. I also like the friendly rivalry. There is a few segments that were swapping between myself and other local riders a couple times a month until finally someone got it quick enough it could not be beaten by the locals I love that friendly competition.... speaking of which Queeqeg... I haven't forgotten about Neale Ave that you stole off me!! :-)
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Re: KOMDefender - Do I flag this ride?

Postby Philistine » Wed Apr 18, 2018 5:41 pm

vosadrian wrote:I like the veloviewer take on KOMs. They have a metric where they look at the percentage of riders you are in front of for you best 100 segments and then do an average of the 100 segments for a veloviewer score.


There is a lot to like about Veloviewer. Most cyclists who use Strava will have experienced the way they will sometimes have gone much slower on some segments than they thought they had, and faster on others than they thought. Depending on the timing of the interactions between your satnav and the satellite, the distance over which you are measured can be anything between 50 metres less than the nominal segment length and 50 metres more. Veloviewer tells you the true distance over which you were measured on each segment and your true average speed over that segment, and this explains most, if not all, of the anomalies.

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queequeg
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Re: KOMDefender - Do I flag this ride?

Postby queequeg » Wed Apr 18, 2018 7:22 pm

vosadrian wrote:I also like the friendly rivalry. There is a few segments that were swapping between myself and other local riders a couple times a month until finally someone got it quick enough it could not be beaten by the locals I love that friendly competition.... speaking of which Queeqeg... I haven't forgotten about Neale Ave that you stole off me!! :-)


Bring it on...although in my current state I am in no position to challenge you.
I have gone under your previous KOM quite a few times, but have not been able to better my own time...one of the downsides of always being on the commuter bike with extra gear
'11 Lynskey Cooper CX, '00 Hillbrick Steel Racing (Total Rebuild '10), '15 Cervelo S5

vosadrian
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Re: KOMDefender - Do I flag this ride?

Postby vosadrian » Thu Apr 19, 2018 1:06 pm

queequeg wrote:
vosadrian wrote:I also like the friendly rivalry. There is a few segments that were swapping between myself and other local riders a couple times a month until finally someone got it quick enough it could not be beaten by the locals I love that friendly competition.... speaking of which Queeqeg... I haven't forgotten about Neale Ave that you stole off me!! :-)


Bring it on...although in my current state I am in no position to challenge you.
I have gone under your previous KOM quite a few times, but have not been able to better my own time...one of the downsides of always being on the commuter bike with extra gear


I'm in a similar state to you at the moment. I meant to go back for it before my surgery when I was in some good form, but I forgot about it and now I am 2 months of no riding. I had a go with the commuter bike and backpack in Jan and got 3s off your time. Race bike and good form????? It will be summer before I am in any form to try again so you have it til then at least!
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queequeg
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Re: KOMDefender - Do I flag this ride?

Postby queequeg » Thu Apr 19, 2018 4:32 pm

vosadrian wrote:
I'm in a similar state to you at the moment. I meant to go back for it before my surgery when I was in some good form, but I forgot about it and now I am 2 months of no riding. I had a go with the commuter bike and backpack in Jan and got 3s off your time. Race bike and good form????? It will be summer before I am in any form to try again so you have it til then at least!


I have come within 2 seconds of my own KOM with the fully loaded commuter bike. I set the KOM on my unloaded commuter bike. I saw your January attempt. You came into the bottom of the climb pretty hot :-) Running the comparison, it looks like you got half way and just couldn't sustain it, which is where I really struggled when I was working my way up to your original KOM. You did at least knock a couple of seconds off your original KOM. Glad I attacked my own KOM and built up a buffer ;-)
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Philistine
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Re: KOMDefender - Do I flag this ride?

Postby Philistine » Thu Apr 19, 2018 7:42 pm

queequeg wrote:
vosadrian wrote:
I'm in a similar state to you at the moment. I meant to go back for it before my surgery when I was in some good form, but I forgot about it and now I am 2 months of no riding. I had a go with the commuter bike and backpack in Jan and got 3s off your time. Race bike and good form????? It will be summer before I am in any form to try again so you have it til then at least!


I have come within 2 seconds of my own KOM with the fully loaded commuter bike. I set the KOM on my unloaded commuter bike. I saw your January attempt. You came into the bottom of the climb pretty hot :-) Running the comparison, it looks like you got half way and just couldn't sustain it, which is where I really struggled when I was working my way up to your original KOM. You did at least knock a couple of seconds off your original KOM. Glad I attacked my own KOM and built up a buffer ;-)


Come on guys. If you must talk about your ongoing KOM battle, then at least provide a link so the rest of us can have some idea of what you are talking about.

BTW - the M7 Cycleway Bubbler Run got a few mentions a day or two ago, and I suggested, unfairly as it turned out, that some riders might have been riding the M7 proper to get their fast times. I finally got around to checking it, and all of the random rides I looked at were actually on the cycleway. I also came across a couple of rides posted by a rider called Brendo,who displayed a very respectable turn of speed, and who made similar journeys on the M7 proper and on the cycleway. Many of the cycleway segments are common to both of his rides, but the Bubbler Run appears only on the cycleway ride, not on the M7 shoulder ride.

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Re: KOMDefender - Do I flag this ride?

Postby ldrcycles » Thu Apr 19, 2018 8:02 pm

If that's the Brendo I'm thinking of, he's a very strong MTB rider. He's done some awesome rides.
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Re: KOMDefender - Do I flag this ride?

Postby find_bruce » Thu Apr 19, 2018 9:58 pm

I came across this tonight ‘You’re doing a disservice to cycling’: Strava thread gets completely out of hand after rider takes Zwift KOM

It seems some e-athletes are taking things seriously

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queequeg
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Re: KOMDefender - Do I flag this ride?

Postby queequeg » Thu Apr 19, 2018 11:33 pm

Philistine wrote:
Come on guys. If you must talk about your ongoing KOM battle, then at least provide a link so the rest of us can have some idea of what you are talking about.

BTW - the M7 Cycleway Bubbler Run got a few mentions a day or two ago, and I suggested, unfairly as it turned out, that some riders might have been riding the M7 proper to get their fast times. I finally got around to checking it, and all of the random rides I looked at were actually on the cycleway. I also came across a couple of rides posted by a rider called Brendo,who displayed a very respectable turn of speed, and who made similar journeys on the M7 proper and on the cycleway. Many of the cycleway segments are common to both of his rides, but the Bubbler Run appears only on the cycleway ride, not on the M7 shoulder ride.


It's just a short local hill on the commute home, so it's not exactly a busy segment. https://www.strava.com/segments/1226907

As for the Bubbler Run, Brendo is in my club. Not sure what he's been up to recently, but he is super strong.
If you look at the leaderboard, you'll see 8 riders in the Top 20 with a ride date of August 4th 2015. They are all from my club.It was a super quick run that night with Mr MTS & Brendo just rolling turns on the front, and everyone else in the box hanging on for dear life.
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Re: KOMDefender - Do I flag this ride?

Postby piledhigher » Thu Apr 19, 2018 11:40 pm

https://www.strava.com/segments/8164790

KOM's are the work of the devil......

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Re: KOMDefender - Do I flag this ride?

Postby bychosis » Fri Apr 20, 2018 7:50 am

If I flag a ride, do they know who flagged it? A guy I follow rode and then jumped in the car and bagged a couple of well contested KOMs. No biggie. I commented that he should crop it about a week ago, but he hasn't done so yet. In the interests of 'fairness' for the segment the ride should be removed but having given him the hint, I don't really want to flag it if it isn't anonymous
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jasonc
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Re: KOMDefender - Do I flag this ride?

Postby jasonc » Fri Apr 20, 2018 8:40 am

Flagging is anonymous. I don't comment any more. If they stubborn enough to upload after having it going in the car they aren't going to crop it. Just flag and move on
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Philistine
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Re: KOMDefender - Do I flag this ride?

Postby Philistine » Fri Apr 20, 2018 8:51 am

bychosis wrote:If I flag a ride, do they know who flagged it? A guy I follow rode and then jumped in the car and bagged a couple of well contested KOMs. No biggie. I commented that he should crop it about a week ago, but he hasn't done so yet. In the interests of 'fairness' for the segment the ride should be removed but having given him the hint, I don't really want to flag it if it isn't anonymous


Don't be a baby - flag it!

I reckon I have flagged over a hundred dodgy rides, and I don't go in for any of this touchy feely stuff about dropping hints. If someone goes for a ride and drives home leaving his Garmin recording, he would have to be severely intellectually challenged not to realize what he has done as soon as he posts the ride. I hesitate just long enough to satisfy myself that I am not unfairly maligning an innocent man. My understanding is that Strava contacts the poster of the disputed ride and tells him why it was flagged, but not by whom. If he believes it was kosher, he only has to say so and they reinstate it - so no harm done!

To the best of my knowledge, I have only ever had one flag overturned. On the M7 Cycleway, there is a short steep downhill segment going south from Elizabeth Drive, and somebody posted a KOM ride in which his average speed for the segment was quite a bit quicker than his maximum instantaneous speed. I realized, afterwards, that he had a massive break from the satellite, being timed over about 550 metres instead of the notional 700 metres of the segment. I personally would have chosen not to profit from this (we are talking KOMs here and I am not sure "profit" is the word), but he did not break the rules. He rode on the M7 shoulder rather than the cycleway, but I am not sure what Strava's position would be on that.

BTW - I have never flagged a woman's ride, not because I haven't got a dog in the fight, but because I have never seen a dodgy ride filed by a woman. Make of this what you will.

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g-boaf
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Re: KOMDefender - Do I flag this ride?

Postby g-boaf » Fri Apr 20, 2018 9:47 am

Philistine wrote:To the best of my knowledge, I have only ever had one flag overturned. On the M7 Cycleway, there is a short steep downhill segment going south from Elizabeth Drive, and somebody posted a KOM ride in which his average speed for the segment was quite a bit quicker than his maximum instantaneous speed. I realized, afterwards, that he had a massive break from the satellite, being timed over about 550 metres instead of the notional 700 metres of the segment. I personally would have chosen not to profit from this (we are talking KOMs here and I am not sure "profit" is the word), but he did not break the rules. He rode on the M7 shoulder rather than the cycleway, but I am not sure what Strava's position would be on that.

BTW - I have never flagged a woman's ride, not because I haven't got a dog in the fight, but because I have never seen a dodgy ride filed by a woman. Make of this what you will.


I think the motorway shoulder is fair enough too. It is faster with the breeze from the traffic pushing you along, but you risk getting punctures from all the debris and rubbish on the shoulder. At one stage I had the KOM from Eastern Creek to somewhere down near Cowpasture Road jointly with another rider at an average speed of almost 60km/h if I remember right. We were riding together, both in decent fitness and the weather conditions on the day weren't excessively gusty.

I have a few other rides that would get me KOMs if I put them up on strava, and by fairly large gaps. They are all longer uphill segments.

I'm not too fussed about it though, they'd only last until some NRS rider comes along and destroys them. They are never really your KOM, you've only got it on loan.

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Re: KOMDefender - Do I flag this ride?

Postby RobertL » Fri Apr 20, 2018 10:00 am

BTW - I have never flagged a woman's ride, not because I haven't got a dog in the fight, but because I have never seen a dodgy ride filed by a woman. Make of this what you will.


There was a KOM (&QOM) held by a woman on a small climb near me a while back. She had obviously left the bike computer on when she drove the car home. She went up the hill at an average of 49+ (in a 50 zone) and the guys in 2nd, 3rd, 4th etc were all in the mid-30s.

I saw it once and thought about flagging it, but hesitated. It had been removed the next time I looked at the segment.
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