Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

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Thoglette
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby Thoglette » Sun Apr 15, 2018 10:48 am

Jmuzz wrote:Deaths aren't really the right statistic anyway. Should be looking at brain injury reduction, plus keeping an eye out for neck injury increases.


Which researchers have tried to do for decades, with bugger all success. The data's below the noise floor.

Meanwhile NSW raises $7M in helmet fines annually and the "casual" transport cyclist (see holland) had* all but disappeared in Australia.

I left my helmet (and one bike) at work this weekend. Strangely, I've not been for my usual weekend rides. Including the trips to the shops

*until the scoff-law fixie-riding hipsters came along
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby jasonc » Mon Apr 16, 2018 12:52 am

Image

Scintilla
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby Scintilla » Sun Apr 22, 2018 9:12 am

More concerns about bicycle riders in the UK, their treatment on the streets, the rather dubiously named 'bicycle superhighways', and the perils of helmet law proposals.


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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby Arbuckle23 » Sun Apr 22, 2018 12:34 pm

Well presented and got a laugh

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find_bruce
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby find_bruce » Sat Apr 28, 2018 11:54 am

Bit of loaded language from the NSW Traffic & Highway police - cyclists are no longer booked for not wearing a helmet - it is now a "safety helmet"

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Toyopet
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby Toyopet » Sat Apr 28, 2018 12:54 pm

From the above:
NSW Traffic & Highway Police wrote:It has been noted that there has been an increase in the number of riders not wearing helmets and riding along footpaths

So they must be very worried about the corresponding increase in cyclist head injuries and pedestrian injuries, and trying to reduce them.

Oh, wait ....

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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby zebee » Sat Apr 28, 2018 7:51 pm

Thoglette wrote:
Jmuzz wrote:Deaths aren't really the right statistic anyway. Should be looking at brain injury reduction, plus keeping an eye out for neck injury increases.


Which researchers have tried to do for decades, with bugger all success. The data's below the noise floor.



I wear an open face motorcycle helmet. I get a lot of people telling me I will die horribly. Anecdata about crashes - those I have had and those my friends have had - tell me that hitting the head is rare and hitting the face rarer. The data agrees, there are not enough face hitting crashes to give any kind of useful stats as to the effecacy of fullface helmets.

Some of that is that the data is not collected, Monash did a study matching interviews with crash data to try and match gear worn with injuries and they didn't get enough crashes where the face hit anything.

I bet that there's not enough deaths of cyclists with enough good data to show whether the helmet helped. If you get hit by a car then you are as likely to have other fatal injuries for example. Did you die because your head hit the car door, or did the split liver do it?

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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby Jmuzz » Mon Apr 30, 2018 11:38 am

zebee wrote:I wear an open face motorcycle helmet. I get a lot of people telling me I will die horribly. Anecdata about crashes - those I have had and those my friends have had - tell me that hitting the head is rare and hitting the face rarer. The data agrees, there are not enough face hitting crashes to give any kind of useful stats as to the effecacy of fullface helmets.


I've crashed motorbikes a few times including very high speed racetrack. Also seen a lot at trackday and doing flag marshaling for race club.

Visors almost always get scratched up, indicating that open face would be short a nose and lips.

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Thoglette
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby Thoglette » Mon Apr 30, 2018 10:01 pm

Jmuzz wrote: including very high speed racetrack. Also seen a lot at trackday and doing flag marshaling for race club..


So, then, how are your comments relevant to someone who is pootling around on doing their shopping on their maggot, Vespa or chookie?

This is the same problem with most MHL studies: they assume a single size fits all.

Has anyone noticed that the OMG MY HELMET SAVED MYLIFE people were a) engaged in "high risk" cycling and b) wearing a helmet anyway?

I wear a helmet on track days (with the car) but I don't wear a helmet when driving to Ikea.
Last edited by Thoglette on Tue May 01, 2018 2:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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fat and old
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby fat and old » Tue May 01, 2018 8:15 am

Thoglette wrote: Ikea.


How is that pronounced? I have heard three different versions this week, and it's doing my head in

eyekeeahh

eekeea

eekeeaye

Three different nationalities mind.

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bychosis
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby bychosis » Tue May 01, 2018 8:21 am

fat and old wrote:
Thoglette wrote: Ikea.


How is that pronounced?


al-len keis.
bychosis (bahy-koh-sis): A mental disorder of delusions indicating impaired contact with a reality of no bicycles.

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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby BobtheBuilder » Tue May 01, 2018 8:30 am

fat and old wrote:
Thoglette wrote: Ikea.

How is that pronounced?


/ɪˈkeː.ˈa/

Last edited by BobtheBuilder on Fri May 04, 2018 12:15 am, edited 1 time in total.

fat and old
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby fat and old » Tue May 01, 2018 1:46 pm

Cool. Swedish wins. Same as Spanish. :lol:

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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby Jmuzz » Wed May 02, 2018 12:08 pm

Thoglette wrote:So, then, how are your comments relevant to someone who is pootling around on doing their shopping on their maggot, Vespa or chookie?
.


I crashed at 20kph after a front wheel lockup on a tar snake on a damp corner. Scuffed visor.
Low speed would just be scratches not nose and lip removal. But of course anyone can faceplant on any bike.
The extent of sandpapering is directly related to speed.

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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby human909 » Wed May 02, 2018 1:30 pm

Jmuzz wrote:But of course anyone can faceplant on any bike.


By the same token anybody can faceplant or break their neck while walking or running...

In my direct experience my ability to land and protect myself works exceedingly well at walking, running and cycling speeds up to 35kph. (I haven't tested myself at higher speeds.) Never hit my head or helmet.

Peoples ability to protect themselves when landing makes a big difference if you do come off. There is a great video of dozens of cyclists slipping and falling on black ice. Funnily enough none hit their head.


Like always it comes back to choice. It sound like your reasons to wear a full face helmet make sense and I don't think anybody here will disagree with your personal choice.

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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby Scintilla » Thu May 03, 2018 8:37 pm


uart
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby uart » Thu May 03, 2018 9:55 pm

Scintilla wrote:


Wow, it's absolutely disgusting to see that video categorized as comedy, when it shows over 30 innocent people sustaining serious head injuries. You know, they fell off bicycles and weren't wearing helmets, so surely they all have serious head injuries right? :lol:

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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby human909 » Thu May 03, 2018 9:56 pm

Thanks Scintilla. That is the video I meant. I think it comfortably makes the point regarding head strikes.

That said, are Dutch riders. They've been falling off bicycle from when they were 4 years old. Knowing how to land makes a huge difference! Throw your stereotypical Australian into a surf beach and you they lap it up. Throw somebody who has grown up 1000kms from the nearest beach into the surf and you get Bondi Rescue. So maybe helmets might be appropriate for SOME riders.

What I'm politely trying to imply is that some Australian cyclists who have taken it up in their wiser years don't have the falling skills that are commensurate with their impressive speeds.

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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby BobtheBuilder » Thu May 03, 2018 10:10 pm

There's something to be said for falling skills. I recently say (here?) a kids cycling film from the early '70s and these pre-teens were doing their own stunts, "falling" off bikes at speed onto tarmac and clearly were used to doing it safely.
Equally, in a brief flirtation with Judo, the instructor told us the importance of falling correctly, and illustrated it with the story of how he fell off his motor bike at 80km/h and did a Judo roll, not a scratch!
There is definitely a place for helmets (and that is not in the statute books!), but there is a place for learning how to fall too!

Last edited by BobtheBuilder on Fri May 04, 2018 12:14 am, edited 2 times in total.

Scintilla
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby Scintilla » Thu May 03, 2018 10:20 pm

This 'un, from 1971?! I was doing similar stuff back in those days :wink:


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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby human909 » Thu May 03, 2018 10:32 pm

I sometimes find it awkward bringing up the importance of knowing how to fall. I feel like I'm bragging or victim blaming. But it shouldn't be ignored.

I have often heard about the importance of falling well in martial arts. Likewise for those who partake in the sport of Parkour. (Both activities I wish I could be skilled and trained in but sadly I am not.)

Nice video, let me post it more clearly:


Oh and Parkour:

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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby BobtheBuilder » Fri May 04, 2018 12:15 am

Scintilla wrote:This 'un, from 1971?!


Yeah, that's the one!

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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby fat and old » Fri May 04, 2018 7:59 am

human909 wrote:I sometimes find it awkward bringing up the importance of knowing how to fall. I feel like I'm bragging or victim blaming.


Nah, no way. Not at all. Not a scintilla of doubt here.

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Thoglette
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby Thoglette » Fri Jun 01, 2018 10:44 am

Almost a month between posts!

A 6 minute video - I'll watch it later as the summary suggests it's all old ground. But getting mainstream(ish) coverage.
Why forcing cyclists to wear helmets will not save lives – video explainer
TheGuardian wrote:Bicycle helmets are compulsory in countries such as Australia and Canada, but as the Guardian's Peter Walker explains this does not help save lives. Despite a series of helmet promotion campaigns in the UK, a growing amount of evidence suggests forcing people to wear protective headgear leads to greater risk-taking and can even put people off cycling altogether, exacerbating the crises in obesity and inactive living

Peter Walker, Josh Toussaint-Strauss, Phil Maynard, Joseph Pierce, Simon Roberts, Paul Boyd, Katie Lamborn, Pascal Wyse, Source: The Guardian

Thu 31 May 2018 20.18 AEST
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

Postby BobtheBuilder » Fri Jun 01, 2018 1:45 pm

Worth a watch - and a share.

Probably the best summation of all the issues in a short time I've seen.

A Koala stamp for the Guardian.

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