M9100 XTR

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Duck!
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M9100 XTR

Postby Duck! » Thu May 03, 2018 10:29 pm

I'm jumping the gun a little bit here, because nothing has formally been announced yet, but several clues have been appearing recently that the release of the next-generation XTR premium MTB groupset is imminent. Firstly, the timing is right in Shimano's production run schedule. Secondly, over the past couple of weeks Shimano have been publishing social media "Throwback Thursday" posts featuring past generations of XTR - a sure sign that Something New is on the way. Finally, a close dig through the Techdocs product specifications gives some insights into what's coming, without yet revealing any actual new product details.

So, the subtle indications are that it will be built around a 12-sp. system. Not at all surprising given SRAM brought it in with Eagle a couple of years ago. Whether it retains multi-chainring capability like 11-sp. does (current M9000 is the only groupset anywhere that offers a massive 3x11 option; M8000 XT & M7000 SLX offer 2x11, SRAM is dedicated 1x), or is strictly 1x like SRAM is not yet known. It's not inconceivable - but probably unlikely - that like SLX's 1/2x11 & 3x10 mix that M9100 could offer a mix of 11- & 12-sp. options. It also appears that like SRAM, the cassettes will go down to a 10T top gear, which will dictate a change in freewheel body design, because 11T is the smallest that can fit on the standard hub design. Again, whether Shimano swallow their ego and adopt the SRAM XD freewheel body design or do their own thing remains to be seen, although the latter would not surprise me..... (They could also pull out the old Capreo 9T-compatible hub design uprated to XTR-tech, which would give then a top gear edge over Eagle....) What happens at the other end of the cassette is also unknown, but expect similar to Eagle's 50T big sprocket.

I'll fill the details in as they're known, but an official announcement could even be within the next few days - again we're getting into the window where in recent years Shimano have been announcing New Stuff.
I had a thought, but it got run over as it crossed my mind.

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Re: M9100 XTR

Postby MichaelB » Fri May 04, 2018 11:07 am

Duck! wrote:

..... It also appears that like SRAM, the cassettes will go down to a 10T top gear, which will dictate a change in freewheel body design, because 11T is the smallest that can fit on the standard hub design. Again, whether Shimano swallow their ego and adopt the SRAM XD freewheel body design or do their own thing remains to be seen, although the latter would not surprise me..... (They could also pull out the old Capreo 9T-compatible hub design uprated to XTR-tech, which would give then a top gear edge over Eagle....) What happens at the other end of the cassette is also unknown, but expect similar to Eagle's 50T big sprocket.
...


Cheers for this info. Will be interesting to see what comes out.

The thing that really interests me is the freehub design. I can see Shimano doing their own thing, but you'd have to question what would be the point ? That just introduces yet another design standard into the market for what is really a low volume product.

Not that I care about cassettes with more than 34 teeth, but for me, it will be interesting to see what they do re 1x, and how that might translate to the road ....

Standing by to standby :o

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Re: M9100 XTR

Postby Thoglette » Fri May 04, 2018 11:43 am

Duck! wrote:(They could also pull out the old Capreo 9T-compatible hub design uprated to XTR-tech
(link added)

Funny, I was thinking the same thing: a bloody obvious move.

Presuming that it's not too expensive to produce, which I believe is what killed the much missed megarange freewheel
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Re: M9100 XTR

Postby MichaelB » Fri May 04, 2018 4:23 pm

Image

Well, based on that, it's just a matter of different final sprockets, and a shorter freehub. Only a few extra sprockets to produce, and of that, they would already have the tooling, especially since they have already made it.

Cool. A nice simple solution that means any teeth above 13 are standard, and it's only the 13 tooth and below that are unique to this hub.

Interesting !!!

And it's 135mm spacing already. Even better :D

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Re: M9100 XTR

Postby Duck! » Fri May 11, 2018 8:00 pm

My friendly Shimano rep advised me today that May 28th is the date the covers come off this year's New Stuff, and wasn't forthcoming about any further details beyond what little I've already uncovered.

He did however concede that over the last decade or so Shimano HQ have focused heavily on the road side of things, especially R9100 Dura-Ace, and realised they've dropped the ball a little on the MTB side and lost a lot of ground to SRAM, and that although it brought Di2 to the dirt, M9000 wasn't the pinnacle of development that XTR should be, rather like 7900 Dura-Ace was. So although on the face of it Shimano still appear to be playing catch-up, the hint is that we could maybe see something a little bit radical.
I had a thought, but it got run over as it crossed my mind.

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Re: M9100 XTR

Postby mikgit » Wed May 23, 2018 2:53 pm

i hear its 1x12 (m9100-12) only and 2x11 (m9100-11) still and maybe 3x11 (probably not)
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Re: M9100 XTR

Postby Duck! » Wed May 23, 2018 6:51 pm

We'll find out soon.... apparently the wraps come off on May 25th, which is only a couple of days away. Due to time zone considerations & ensuring no region sees the release before they hit Friday, I suspect we'll see the official news late on Friday night.

I've seen a leaked post from Brazil wich shows a four-pot brake caliper, which I suspect will be the "Trail" option, while the "Race" version will likely continue as a two-pot.
I had a thought, but it got run over as it crossed my mind.

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Re: M9100 XTR

Postby mikgit » Wed May 23, 2018 9:05 pm

yeah I saw a leaked pic of the specs of the cassette (doesn't make it true, but looks likely)
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Re: M9100 XTR

Postby Duck! » Wed May 23, 2018 10:03 pm

If you've seen the same thing I have, which appears to be a screenshot from the Shimano techdocs specifications page, that first appeared on April Fools' Day, so it may or may not be an accurate representation. The thing on it that catches my eye which I find weird is the supposed use of the same chain for both 11- and 12-sp. options.

As I mentioned in the OP, although there are some clues showing in the spec charts, nothing at all specifically relating to M9100 components has been published there.
I had a thought, but it got run over as it crossed my mind.

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Re: M9100 XTR

Postby Duck! » Wed May 23, 2018 10:23 pm

This one popped up on Rotorburn t'other day....

Image
I had a thought, but it got run over as it crossed my mind.

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Re: M9100 XTR

Postby mikgit » Wed May 23, 2018 10:41 pm

Duck! wrote:If you've seen the same thing I have, which appears to be a screenshot from the Shimano techdocs specifications page, that first appeared on April Fools' Day, so it may or may not be an accurate representation. The thing on it that catches my eye which I find weird is the supposed use of the same chain for both 11- and 12-sp. options.

As I mentioned in the OP, although there are some clues showing in the spec charts, nothing at all specifically relating to M9100 components has been published there.


haha could be.
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Re: M9100 XTR

Postby Duck! » Fri May 25, 2018 12:48 pm

Officially the wraps come off overnight Aus time (around 2am Eastern I'm told). Had a visit from my friendly Shimano rep this morning, practically bouncing off the walls with excitement, so I got a bit of a sneak peek. :-) Probably the biggest surprise, which the leaks didn't pick up on, is th 2x12 option! :shock:

I haven't yet had a really close look at the rear hub, but it does appear at least superficially to be an evolution of the Capreo hub design; it is quite different to SRAM's XD body. DT Swiss so far are the only manufacturer licensed to produce the hub at this stage, but othrs will probably follow.
I had a thought, but it got run over as it crossed my mind.

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Re: M9100 XTR

Postby MichaelB » Fri May 25, 2018 1:51 pm

One of the leaked pis I saw (can't see yours above) was a 4 pot caliper with a smooth polished body - aside from the 12 sp stuff, any changes with the brakes ?

Oh, and are you able to confirm the piston sizes in the 8020 caliper ? I've seen conflicting reports that they are different to the Saint/Zee (but still use the same pad) - is this correct ?

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Re: M9100 XTR

Postby Duck! » Fri May 25, 2018 7:12 pm

You probably saw the same pic as I posted above. Slightly to my surprise, there is no 2-pot brake; the 4-pot is the only one on offer. Pads are apparently "similar" to Saint/Zee/XT 4-pot, but the cooling fins appear different. whether ot not they're compatible with those calipers I do not know yet. At this stage I have no details regarding the brakes beyond this, other than that there is yet another iteration of I-Spec integrated shifter mounting.

To the best of my detective work, M820 Saint, M640 Zee and M8020 XT 4-Pot are exactly the same calipers, just printed differently, and the Zee version comes shipped from the factory with non-finned pads.
I had a thought, but it got run over as it crossed my mind.

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Re: M9100 XTR

Postby 10speedsemiracer » Fri May 25, 2018 7:54 pm

I always enjoy reading these.
Tks Duck. ..
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Re: M9100 XTR

Postby trailgumby » Fri May 25, 2018 8:01 pm

The 2x12 approach is probably targeting the Euro market which I hear is largely 1x sceptic.

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Re: M9100 XTR

Postby Duck! » Sat May 26, 2018 5:05 pm

http://www.ridextr.com

Well it's now officially Out There & plastered all over your favourite cycling media sources, but here's a run-down.

Starting with the brakes: contrary to what my Shimano rep told me, there is still a two-pot caliper option found in the "XC" (previously known as "Race") sub-groupset, paired to a simpler lever with no Servo Wave cam or tool-free reach adjustment. This new brake is a mild evolution of the M9000 unit, and retains the same pads. The "Enduro" (formerly "Trail") brake is the four-pot unit, considerably lighter than the current M820/8020/640 model, and about 10% more powerful than the outgoing M9020. Like the 9020, the Enduro lever gains the Servo Wave stroke ratio-altering cam, reach adjust knob and free stroke adjustment, and will form the benchmark for next-gen XT, SLX and Deore in subsequent years. As noted previously, pads are apparently similar and probably (but not confirmed) compatible with current 4-pot capliers. The biggest change to the brake levers is the location of the bar clamp, to around halfway down the reservoir body, rather than up near the lever head. This is claimed to improve stiffness of the lever body & improve efficiency of input power.

To the drivetrain, there are essentially four options available, despite the fact that for the first time in XTR's history there is no 3x option. 12-sp. is the Big Thing, in both 1x and 2x configurations, with 10-45 (for 1x or 2x) and 10-51 for 1x. There is also an 11-sp. version, which can also be 1x or 2x, but with only one cassette, a 10-45, which is basically the bigger 12-sp. with the 51T sprocket removed. It is not compatible with existing 11-sp. systems. The cranks move to a "spiderless" design, with the ring/s mounting to a splined interface on the butt of the crank, shedding about 100g compared to the M9000 equivalents. The XC version is 1x only, slightly lighter and with a narrower q-factor than the Enduro version, which is 1x or 2x-compatible. Both are available in standard or Boost forms, the latter having the ring/s offset 3mm outboard. The cranks retain Shimano's 24mm spindle, so bottom brackets are unchanged from M9000 & derivatives.

The right shifter is an evolution of the M9000 model, with its innards revised for the 12-sp. The same shifter is used for the 11-sp. drivetrain option, the last gear point is tuned out when setting up. The left shifter, now there's no 3x option, is a much simpler push/pull lever. The new shifters and brake levers introduce yet another iteration of I-Spec integration; the key point of I-Spec EV is a four-fold increase in shifter adjustment on the clamp from 15 degrees to 60 degrees, with an additional 2mm of lateral adjustment over previous I-Specs, now up to 14mm. There is also an I-Spec EV dropper post lever, compatible with most cable-actuated posts.

The funkiest bit of the system is the "Scylence" rear hub. Contrary to my initian impression, it has no relationship to the old Capreo design; it's all new. Hyperglide+ is a full-length (about .6mm longer than the standard type) straight-diameter freewheel body, slimmed down to be able to fit the 10T top gear, and also featuring a new "micro-spline" interface with greater contact area than the old standard, so when other manufacturers start making it in aluminium it won't chew out so much..... (The XTR model's freewheel body apparently remains titanium). It's also available in a wide-flange version for the 11-sp. cassette, with a 4.7mm shorter body. The funkiest bit of it all though is the engagement. First spied as a concept before the release of R9100 Dura-Ace and presumed to have been for that model, which didn't eventuate, the Scylence hub does away with conventional ratchet pawls. Instead it works on a principle similar to DT's star ratchet clutch palte system, but unlike the DT ratchet where the clutch rings are pressed into constant contact, the Scylence hub is geared to pull the plates apart when backpedalling or freewheeling, for zero noise and almost zero frag. Engagement is down to 6 degrees, down from the previous few generations' 10 degrees. At this stage, only DT Swiss are licensed to produce the hub pattern, but others may follow in future.

Think that about covers it. :-)
I had a thought, but it got run over as it crossed my mind.

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Re: M9100 XTR

Postby MichaelB » Sat May 26, 2018 6:04 pm

Discs look much nicer than the latest roadie versions !!

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Re: M9100 XTR

Postby Thoglette » Mon May 28, 2018 3:14 pm

Duck! wrote:...and also featuring a new "micro-spline" interface

Vale UG/HG :(

I guess 40 years is not a bad run.
Some photos on Bikeradar who are doing what they're paid to do.

The funny part is that my decades old FH-1051 hub is already pretty SCYLENCT compared to modern hubs. :D
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Re: M9100 XTR

Postby Duck! » Mon May 28, 2018 4:54 pm

HG won't be disappearing any time soon.
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Re: M9100 XTR

Postby Thoglette » Mon May 28, 2018 5:45 pm

Duck! wrote:HG won't be disappearing any time soon.

I agree, but I expect that the next DA release will be "micro", with ultegra and 105 falling in the next two refresh cycles.

Ah, we'll always have Claris :D
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Re: M9100 XTR

Postby Duck! » Mon May 28, 2018 6:53 pm

I'm not sure whether we'll see Micro Spline (HG+) on road hubs; depends if Shimano decide to adopt 1x or not. I'd be pretty certain that R9200 D-A will at least have the Scylence mechanism, regardless of whether it sticks with HG or goes HG+.

Given that Deore & Tiagra, both trickled down from the respective 9000 lines are still 10-sp, and Alivio (M4100 is also new right about now) and Sora are still 9-sp, I can't see anything below SLX/105 changing to HG+ for a long time yet.
I had a thought, but it got run over as it crossed my mind.

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Re: M9100 XTR

Postby Thoglette » Mon May 28, 2018 10:28 pm

Duck! wrote:I'm not sure whether we'll see Micro Spline (HG+) on road hubs;

If I were a betting man, I'd be backing you over me every time!
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Re: M9100 XTR

Postby Duck! » Wed May 30, 2018 11:16 pm

MichaelB wrote:One of the leaked pis I saw (can't see yours above) was a 4 pot caliper with a smooth polished body - aside from the 12 sp stuff, any changes with the brakes ?

Duck! wrote:You probably saw the same pic as I posted above. Slightly to my surprise, there is no 2-pot brake; the 4-pot is the only one on offer. Pads are apparently "similar" to Saint/Zee/XT 4-pot, but the cooling fins appear different. whether ot not they're compatible with those calipers I do not know yet.

Duck! wrote:
Starting with the brakes: contrary to what my Shimano rep told me, there is still a two-pot caliper option found in the "XC" (previously known as "Race") sub-groupset, paired to a simpler lever with no Servo Wave cam or tool-free reach adjustment. This new brake is a mild evolution of the M9000 unit, and retains the same pads. The "Enduro" (formerly "Trail") brake is the four-pot unit, considerably lighter than the current M820/8020/640 model, and about 10% more powerful than the outgoing M9020. Like the 9020, the Enduro lever gains the Servo Wave stroke ratio-altering cam, reach adjust knob and free stroke adjustment, and will form the benchmark for next-gen XT, SLX and Deore in subsequent years. As noted previously, pads are apparently similar and probably (but not confirmed) compatible with current 4-pot capliers.

OK, so the more detailed specs are now available on Shimano's tech docs site, and a squizz through has pointed out a few differences from what was first suggested.... The two-pot XC calipers use the same pads as the road flat-mount brakes, the K-series finned and L-series non-finned pads (although they don't actually specify a finless option), rather than the F- & J-series finned & G-series non-finned pads of the M980 and M9000 families. The 4-pot Enduro brake uses a new N-series pad group, but I still don't know yet whether they're just a new fin shape on otherwise the same backing plate as the H-series used in the other 4-pots (rather like the difference between the F- and J-series) and finless D-series, or if they're a wholly new pad.
I had a thought, but it got run over as it crossed my mind.

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Re: M9100 XTR

Postby MichaelB » Thu May 31, 2018 10:13 am

Thanks. They're gonna run out of alphabet soon !!!

Any idea re the piston sizes in both calipers ? Particularly the 4 potters.

Weights on the calipers ?

Know that the Zee/Saint calipers are 18 & 16mm pistons, but have heard/read that the M8020 (the new XT 4 potters) are different at 14 & 17mm ?

Interestingly, the Hope RX4 calipers that are meant to work with the road levers are 14 & 16mm.

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