Brisbane Valley Rail Trail

Scintilla
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Re: Brisbane Valley Rail Trail

Postby Scintilla » Sat Aug 11, 2018 12:00 pm

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Re: Brisbane Valley Rail Trail

Postby foo on patrol » Sat Aug 11, 2018 1:52 pm

Scintilla wrote:
foo on patrol wrote:I've ridden Brassall to Lowood and nothing wrong with the surface. There's no keeping some people happy sometimes. Nothing wrong with some challenges

So you to ‘think it’s just fine and nothing should be done to change it’??

foo on patrol wrote: as far as Law Suits go, give me a bloody break, the roads are more dangerous than these trails.

If you think that you will win a law suit with the roads authority over the traffic risks on the road, good luck to you.

foo on patrol wrote:You can't expect all of the bridges to be replaced with new ones, there's not a bottomless pit of money!

Yes, I do expect the bridges to be reinstated, rebuilt or replaced. This is exactly what has happened to rail trails in Victoria...... over the past 20 years of course. My issue is not about the lack at present but rather the attitude (which you appear to express) that no improvements are needed, nor are even desirable :roll:

I will leave it up to you Qlders but if you think this trail standard is all that you want and should not try to improve on it, then your rail trail will not get the bicycle use that it is capable of, and the local towns will miss out on the potential economic benefits. The landscapes that this trail passes through are really very good, with variety and historic interest, but right now it is a needless chore for bicycle tourists desirous of traveling the full length of the trail. Accepting this as something to work on in future is sensible; dismissing those who don’t like the current trail & bridge situation with “no keeping some people happy” is an insult!


Like I said, there's stopping some people from whinging! :roll:

My attitude? :lol: If people can't ride on these trails at suitable speeds for "their" ability, there is something wrong and whilst I'm at it, they are upgrading the section from Brassal towards Wanora at the moment, so maybe you should do your "research" properly! :idea:

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Re: Brisbane Valley Rail Trail

Postby foo on patrol » Sat Aug 11, 2018 1:56 pm

singlespeedscott wrote:
Scintilla wrote:
foo on patrol wrote:I've ridden Brassall to Lowood and nothing wrong with the surface. There's no keeping some people happy sometimes. Nothing wrong with some challenges

So you to ‘think it’s just fine and nothing should be done to change it’??

foo on patrol wrote: as far as Law Suits go, give me a bloody break, the roads are more dangerous than these trails.

If you think that you will win a law suit with the roads authority over the traffic risks on the road, good luck to you.

foo on patrol wrote:You can't expect all of the bridges to be replaced with new ones, there's not a bottomless pit of money!

Yes, I do expect the bridges to be reinstated, rebuilt or replaced. This is exactly what has happened to rail trails in Victoria...... over the past 20 years of course. My issue is not about the lack at present but rather the attitude (which you appear to express) that no improvements are needed, nor are even desirable :roll:

I will leave it up to you Qlders but if you think this trail standard is all that you want and should not try to improve on it, then your rail trail will not get the bicycle use that it is capable of, and the local towns will miss out on the potential economic benefits. The landscapes that this trail passes through are really very good, with variety and historic interest, but right now it is a needless chore for bicycle tourists desirous of traveling the full length of the trail. Accepting this as something to work on in future is sensible; dismissing those who don’t like the current trail & bridge situation with “no keeping some people happy” is an insult!


So in your opinion what standard is acceptable for a rail trail. Perfectly smooth hot mix with concrete bridges?

At what point does it no longer become a rail trail but instead a sealed road for non motorised traffic?

What about other user groups? What standard is their expectation?


Exactly! :wink:

And just for laughs, I'm a 61yr old bloke and see no problems with riding on uneven surfaces, it would be a shame if there was a little challenge in peoples lives, hey SSS? :lol:

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Re: Brisbane Valley Rail Trail

Postby Scintilla » Sat Aug 11, 2018 2:24 pm

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Re: Brisbane Valley Rail Trail

Postby Scintilla » Sat Aug 11, 2018 2:35 pm

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Re: Brisbane Valley Rail Trail

Postby foo on patrol » Sat Aug 11, 2018 2:39 pm

Scintilla wrote:
foo on patrol wrote:they are upgrading the section from Brassal towards Wanora at the moment, so maybe you should do your "research" properly! :idea:

I did in fact ride through that section, just four weeks ago, so 'research' was what I have been doing. We actually were forced to ride through the underpass on barely ridable sponge-surface, past the fences. Again, substandard from whoever was in charge of the works. The detour was diverting us up to the Daguilar Hwy (motorway) bridge, and I was damned if I was going to go jousting it with those B-doubles there.

Yes, it will be great if this results in a much improved surface; exactly what I am talking about, and was trying to suggest to the BVRT users-group that they still need to keep working on.

As I have said before several times - the person's attitude that it was "just the way we like it, and we are not going to change it" is indicative of a failing user-group. I will not be encouraging anyone to go up to Qld for the 'greatest longest rail-trail' experience anytime soon.

YMMV.


That, is nowhere near the Brassall to Wanora section! :?

So the hundreds of riders that use it are wrong? I have women from my area that have ridden it and have now problems and they are mid 50s to mid 60s!

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Re: Brisbane Valley Rail Trail

Postby Scintilla » Sat Aug 11, 2018 3:03 pm

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Re: Brisbane Valley Rail Trail

Postby foo on patrol » Sat Aug 11, 2018 3:12 pm

Scintilla wrote:
foo on patrol wrote:My attitude? :lol: If people can't ride on these trails at suitable speeds for "their" ability, there is something wrong

BTW, loving the implied insults :evil:

YOU do not know ME!! For the record I am only a year younger than you. I have been touring, doing Audax, MTB and more for over 40 years now. Riding steep climbs and hauling a load of gear for 80-120 kms is nothing that has ever caused me any great worries. I have ridden all the rail trails in Victoria, and have toured on roads through our mountains in some of the more extreme remote areas. A few steep descents and climbs, or rough track is no great grief. But you seem to completely miss my point, which is all about encouraging and enabling more people, new people, to use such rail trails to discover and experience the joys and love of riding bikes

You are now pissing me off. I really think that you just want to do that. Over and out to this thread now from me


:lol: :lol:

I must remember to remind the families that I have seen on there with kids of 6yrs old and upwards, that it's not suitable for them to ride on. :roll:

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Re: Brisbane Valley Rail Trail

Postby RonK » Sat Aug 11, 2018 4:44 pm

The BVRT as it stands today is a great resource. After exploring it last month I have organised and will lead a group of 15 riders over it next month. I'll be riding an e-mtb instead of my Salsa Fargo, because pushing my bike out of the steep ravines caused severe discomfort to my 65 year old arthritic knees, and the bumpy surface south of Toogoolawah caused similar discomfort to my hands and wrists.

It's far from perfect, and it's far from world class. Anybody who thinks it is needs to get their head out of the sand.

The efforts and improvements to date notwithstanding, valid criticisms can still be made.

As has been clearly demonstrated, visitors have certain perceptions and expectations about rail trails, and some who have travelled a long way to ride the BVRT will not have the experience they had anticipated. This is not the recipe for a successful tourism venture which has cost $millions to develop.
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Re: Brisbane Valley Rail Trail

Postby foo on patrol » Sat Aug 11, 2018 5:28 pm

Considering that this project is only very young, I think they have done a good job. :wink: Of course there could be better/improvement but what is in place at this point in time, is far better than not having anything like it. :idea:

Like I said, it's not a bottomless pit of money that can be drawn on. :wink:

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Re: Brisbane Valley Rail Trail

Postby RonK » Sat Aug 11, 2018 6:40 pm

foo on patrol wrote:Like I said, it's not a bottomless pit of money that can be drawn on. :wink:

And for that reason, the available funds should be spend wisely and to the best effect.

I met Peter Kleis, the TMR ranger who is responsible for the BVRT, at the Locker Creek Bridge. I was astonished by the huge stockpile of new bridge timbers and piles on site, and at the tonnes of rock being delivered. Peter explained that the rock was being used to create a road and platform for a 100 tonne crane to be placed in the creek bed to remove the girders, so that every rivet could be removed and replaced. The estimate for the bridgework is $4.5m, but inevitably there will be cost overruns. The concrete crossings on the new section cost $1.5m. This is money wasted in my view. Most of the crossings could have been bridged by swing bridges for that amount of money.

I have ridden my bike across this one in the Gibbston Valley near Queenstown, and others like it. The gorge here far deeper and wider than Lockyer Creek. Bridges like this could be built at a fraction of the cost of the refurbishment of the Lockyer Creek Rail Bridge.

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Re: Brisbane Valley Rail Trail

Postby Lukeyboy » Thu Aug 16, 2018 4:25 pm

RonK wrote:I rode the entire rail trail last month and came away with mixed views. It could be a great resource, but it is not there yet.

Crossings on the new section cost $1.5m, the refurbishment of the Lockyer Creek bridge is expected to cost $4.5m.

I don’t understand why so much should be spent on the refurbishment.

$5.5m would have gone a long way towards crossing ALL the gullies with swing bridges.

It comes as no surprise to me that there are already several reports about riders injured by crashes on some of the steep crossings. I considered quite a few of them to be downright dangerous.

The rail trail is still a long way from world class, despite the boasts of the BVRT users association. Much of it is far from the standard set by the Otago Rail Trail which the BVRT users association claim to be the model for the BVRT.

If the BVRT is to be an economic success it must be safe and usable by ALL classes of cyclists.


The bridge is effectively being rebuilt all while meeting heritage protection laws. Its a historic landmark that has heritage protection. Another bridge up north is being rebuilt for the same reason despite no traffic using it. Queensland Rail put forward an application to have restoration works done on it despite the line's dwindling traffic and near closure. Treasury knocked it back on the grounds of dwindling traffic. Not long later it met and heritage protection was applied. Now the state government has a bill more than 3x the amount to restore it.

The steel girders are being removed to have the lead paint stripped and removed. In doing so a crane big enough to lift the steel girder from the middle of the bridge onto the northern bank is required (not a small job). The timber trestles are all being replaced. You have to remember in the 2011 flood the water was actually over the railway sleepers on that bridge. This damaged the 100+ year old bridge. High enough that sticks were still present wedged into the corner points of the steel girders. Once the bridge is complete it will be redecked and accessible to walkers and cyclists.

Also remember the area floods quite often. 2013 was the last major one. Multiple sections of the railway line had been realigned and bridges replaced on multiple occasions due to flood damage.
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Re: Brisbane Valley Rail Trail

Postby Lukeyboy » Thu Aug 16, 2018 4:54 pm

I should also add its safety is also dependent on the riders ability and their bike setup. You just have to look at my stupid KOM times along some sections :P

Some culverts you can just bomb down and are a piece of cake. Have no ability and you'll go ass over tit. 40kph into a stoney dry creek bed crossing with 35mm tires..... or 40kph on 2.3mtb tires with suspension..... who will make it out alive :)

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Re: Brisbane Valley Rail Trail

Postby RonK » Thu Aug 16, 2018 6:31 pm

Lukeyboy wrote:
RonK wrote:I rode the entire rail trail last month and came away with mixed views. It could be a great resource, but it is not there yet.

Crossings on the new section cost $1.5m, the refurbishment of the Lockyer Creek bridge is expected to cost $4.5m.

I don’t understand why so much should be spent on the refurbishment.

$5.5m would have gone a long way towards crossing ALL the gullies with swing bridges.

It comes as no surprise to me that there are already several reports about riders injured by crashes on some of the steep crossings. I considered quite a few of them to be downright dangerous.

The rail trail is still a long way from world class, despite the boasts of the BVRT users association. Much of it is far from the standard set by the Otago Rail Trail which the BVRT users association claim to be the model for the BVRT.

If the BVRT is to be an economic success it must be safe and usable by ALL classes of cyclists.


The bridge is effectively being rebuilt all while meeting heritage protection laws. Its a historic landmark that has heritage protection. Another bridge up north is being rebuilt for the same reason despite no traffic using it. Queensland Rail put forward an application to have restoration works done on it despite the line's dwindling traffic and near closure. Treasury knocked it back on the grounds of dwindling traffic. Not long later it met and heritage protection was applied. Now the state government has a bill more than 3x the amount to restore it.

The steel girders are being removed to have the lead paint stripped and removed. In doing so a crane big enough to lift the steel girder from the middle of the bridge onto the northern bank is required (not a small job). The timber trestles are all being replaced. You have to remember in the 2011 flood the water was actually over the railway sleepers on that bridge. This damaged the 100+ year old bridge. High enough that sticks were still present wedged into the corner points of the steel girders. Once the bridge is complete it will be redecked and accessible to walkers and cyclists.

Also remember the area floods quite often. 2013 was the last major one. Multiple sections of the railway line had been realigned and bridges replaced on multiple occasions due to flood damage.

So I see you must have read my post immediately before yours and decided to edit out your critical comments. A shame, I would have been happy to QFT them

My source of information is exemplary - I got it from Peter Kleis, the TMR manager resonsible for BVRT. The steel girders are being removed to replace the rivets, that's the word from the horse's mouth. I'll reprise my post here for your elucidation.
I met Peter Kleis, the TMR ranger who is responsible for the BVRT, at the Locker Creek Bridge. I was astonished by the huge stockpile of new bridge timbers and piles on site, and at the tonnes of rock being delivered. Peter explained that the rock was being used to create a road and platform for a 100 tonne crane to be placed in the creek bed to remove the girders, so that every rivet could be removed and replaced.

So perhaps you should backtrack and check your own information. I very much doubt it is necessary to totally dismantle such a structure simply to remove lead paint.

Heritage protection or not, that does not at all detract from my assertion that the money is wasted, with that money all or most of the gullies could have been crossed by swing bridges, which by the way are relatively inexpensive to build and quickly and cheaply restored if damaged by a flood. That is why they are used around the world to cross rivers which in flood would make the biggest Lockyer Creek flow look like a puny trickle.
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Re: Brisbane Valley Rail Trail

Postby Recrider5 » Thu Aug 16, 2018 10:50 pm

foo on patrol wrote:Won't be long and you will be able to ride from Ipswich to Kingaroy on this. They are working on the Toogoolawah to More section now. 8)

Then add in the Murgon to Gympie section and you will have almost/around 300klms one way of Rail Trails. :D

Foo



Toogoolawah to Moore is now open. Beautifully smooth fine gravel trail.

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Re: Brisbane Valley Rail Trail

Postby Lukeyboy » Thu Aug 16, 2018 11:01 pm

Actually I didn't read your post before editing my post. Hence why I have a second post. The only thing I edited was the quip at the end as I didn't want to feel the potential wrath of the moderators :twisted:

So you spoke to the tmr project leader and found out where some rocks and timber was going. Nothing really new there. Its been known for ages what was happening to that bridge. Work started on it over a year ago.

I also never said it was to just remove lead paint. There are many things that are getting done to it. But yes. The steel girders from up top are being removed from the structure temporary to have work done to it. Once that has been removed work can start on replacing the pylons. Some of the timber pylons were damaged from flooding, natural damage/rot, no maintenance and basically old age. Once the timber has been replaced the steel section of the bridge will be reinstalled before the bridge will be decked to allow trail users to use it.

Here are some photos that I took this year showing the damage to the wooden pylons.

Some of the timber rot and damaged pylons taken just before work started. You can see the pylons on the left had already started to splinter.
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Here you can see rot really taking over and hollowing out the timber.
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In this one you can see a substantial amount of rot going on. Some timber has been extensively damaged. Note the missing and heavily rotten wooden sleepers.
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The southern and northern section had the first sections replaced last year as they had quite excessive rot (sorry for the grainy photo as I took it at about 4.30am).
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The bridge as it was last month.
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Since the bridge is being decked and fenced so trail users can use it would require additional support. Which would mean replacing damaged pylons and ensuring the bridge is structurally sound for the short term and long term - something of which wasn't structurally sound when decking was first considered. All of this has to be done in accordance with current laws surrounding heritage items.

You can find examples up in Bundy where old railway bridges shortly after line closure were converted into shared pedestrian walkways. Most of these occurred on short sections where the line was in good condition. The BVRT and KKRT were left to decay for decades and their upkeep was limited even prior to their line closure.

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(photo taken by Frank Tybislawski).

There are sections along the BVRT and the KKRT where this was considered but were ruled out due to the same flood and age damage hence why they were removed or simply had diversions put in.

Image
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You might not like its heritage status and the amount spent on it but that's the nature of the beast. Same with the Dickabram Bridge. IIRC quite a lot of bridges on the western system out to Toowoomba were built quite similar. All of which have been replaced during realignments and replacement bridges to allow for heavier locomotives to transport coal hence why its one of the few left in Queensland. I don't mean to be insincere but take it as you will.

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Re: Brisbane Valley Rail Trail

Postby foo on patrol » Fri Aug 17, 2018 8:40 am

Doing the Moore to Toogoolawah ride on the 8th of next month but am starting at Toogoolawah and riding to Moore for the start and the big breakfast. All up 60klms for the ride and that will be the biggest effort on my 29er. :)

https://www.facebook.com/events/1038575659651662/

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Re: Brisbane Valley Rail Trail

Postby Lukeyboy » Sat Aug 18, 2018 8:16 pm

foo on patrol wrote:
Scintilla wrote:
foo on patrol wrote:they are upgrading the section from Brassal towards Wanora at the moment, so maybe you should do your "research" properly! :idea:

I did in fact ride through that section, just four weeks ago, so 'research' was what I have been doing. We actually were forced to ride through the underpass on barely ridable sponge-surface, past the fences. Again, substandard from whoever was in charge of the works. The detour was diverting us up to the Daguilar Hwy (motorway) bridge, and I was damned if I was going to go jousting it with those B-doubles there.

Yes, it will be great if this results in a much improved surface; exactly what I am talking about, and was trying to suggest to the BVRT users-group that they still need to keep working on.

As I have said before several times - the person's attitude that it was "just the way we like it, and we are not going to change it" is indicative of a failing user-group. I will not be encouraging anyone to go up to Qld for the 'greatest longest rail-trail' experience anytime soon.

YMMV.


That, is nowhere near the Brassall to Wanora section! :?

So the hundreds of riders that use it are wrong? I have women from my area that have ridden it and have now problems and they are mid 50s to mid 60s!

Foo


I have read more posts and now have more comments. What the hell is going on here. Its difficult to compare other rail trails to others because of vast differences in the geographic location.

The BVRT just isn't for cyclists. Its also for horse riders. Something of which is quite popular with riders doing long distances on horseback. Horses prefer the dirt/grassy sections - something which isn't allowed on many trails. It's also popular with the rider that likes to smoke pot while riding his horse along it. The KKRT has horses banned Murgon-Kingaroy but allowed for Kilkivan-Murgon. It's popular with walkers. Its popular with multi day tourists traveling along its length. It's popular with kids. Its popular with racers that enjoy doing long sections at a time. Its popular with old people. It's popular with runners. Popular with dog walkers. It's quite popular as it is. And yes I do ride the trail quite frequently along with talking with other riders.

There are many issues with putting tarmac or hot mix down along the BVRT. You can see these issues with the KKRT where the tar has just melted on hot days and formed lumpy sections. And the council/contractors have just heavily relied on the condition of the rail bed to act as a level surface which they got lucky with as the line was only decommissioned a few years previously - hence its pretty cheap price. It also doesn't have many or any crossings compared to the Murgon-Main line connection. When the BVRT still had trains running there were many speed restrictions during the summer months due to the potential for buckled tracks and washouts. The same with replacing many of the bridges. A top deck simply can not be put down due to the condition of the bridge requiring a full replacement. This is the damage and why the Lockyer Creek bridge is having its supports replaced.

During construction 2 riders did crash in the river crossings. IIRC one rider rode through when the tar was still curing and had a slip when it came to turning his bike for the first time. Both riders should not have been in that area at the time. A couple other people that I have spoken too have ignored the signs advising of the steep/descent and crashed. A couple riders launched off the uturn on the lockyer creek crossing because they bombed the downhill, got air over the crest and then saw the hairpin. End result was them launching into the grassy weeds and downhill embankment.

Yes parts can be improved but really the stuff that some people are complaining about. Honestly. Just ride and enjoy the damn thing. I'd comment more but I'd more than likely offend someone.

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Re: Brisbane Valley Rail Trail

Postby TheWall » Sat Aug 18, 2018 10:12 pm

Lukeyboy wrote:
Yes parts can be improved but really the stuff that some people are complaining about. Honestly. Just ride and enjoy the damn thing. I'd comment more but I'd more than likely offend someone.


I am offended that you failed to try hard enough to offend anyone! :D :roll:

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Re: Brisbane Valley Rail Trail

Postby Lukeyboy » Sat Aug 18, 2018 10:20 pm

Well, I'm sure someone is offended that your offended that i could have offended.... :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: Brisbane Valley Rail Trail

Postby Lukeyboy » Sun Aug 19, 2018 10:53 am

Well for a very windy and dusty Sunday the current count Wulkuraka-fernvale is 15 riders, 4 walkers and 1 horse. Another 5 at fernvale having food/putting bikes on cars.

34 riders, 16 horse riders and 8 walkers between Fernvale and Mt Hallen.

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Re: Brisbane Valley Rail Trail

Postby foo on patrol » Sun Aug 19, 2018 5:18 pm

You doing the More to Toogoolawah on the 8th of next month, Lukeyboy? I'm riding from Toogoolawah to Moore for the breakfast and start.

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Re: Brisbane Valley Rail Trail

Postby Scintilla » Sun Aug 19, 2018 5:42 pm

Lukeyboy wrote:The BVRT just isn't for cyclists. Its also for horse riders. Something of which is quite popular with riders doing long distances on horseback

Yes. Almost every rail trail in Victoria is for horse-riders, as well as bicycles and walkers. I have met many horses actually out there using these trails. No grief with allowing for them, talking to the rider and horse, slowly passing by. Horses even are able to use the trail grass alongside, and on some trails there are parallel equestrian tracks. Some (eg. Beechworth, Old Beechy) have parallel REAL proper MTB single-track as well.

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Re: Brisbane Valley Rail Trail

Postby Lukeyboy » Sun Aug 19, 2018 9:13 pm

foo on patrol wrote:You doing the More to Toogoolawah on the 8th of next month, Lukeyboy? I'm riding from Toogoolawah to Moore for the breakfast and start.

Foo


That's on the Saturday? If so then nope as I will be working. I will be doing the trail twice this week however...... :P

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Re: Brisbane Valley Rail Trail

Postby foo on patrol » Sun Sep 09, 2018 2:51 am

Well I did the Toogoolawah to Moore and return yesterday. The temp was perfect for riding and the breakfast provide was good. 8)

Coming up out of the creek at Harlin, I broke my chain :shock: and as we were trying to get the link and pin to rejoin, a couple of blokes started riding past the servo and my mate asked if the had a chain breaker on them. Well bugger me, one bloke did and it was in one of those Topeak tool clusters that fold into a handy little pouch. :D So with the chain rejoined off we set again for Moore and some breakfast.

After breaky we headed over to the start point for the obligatory brief before the start. About 40 riders set off and around 20 horse riders behind us. I didn't take any risks on the steep pulls out of the creeks and then my legs started to fail so I walked up a few of the hills with a bloke that was riding with my may and I giving me a hand as my legs gave out with about 10klms to go. My mate had a family issue and took off on his E-bike (he has Emphysema from our days of traing in -degree temps in the 70s) as this is the only way that he can do rides like this now. :(

All in all, it was a great day and it was good to see people of all ages and ability out an about on this bit of infrastructure, instead of doing nothing. :wink:

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