Diet Thread

[RhapsodyX]

Intermittent fasting: No advantage over conventional weight loss diets. (Study abstract).
N=150, 50 weeks...

Although the HELENA study does not confirm the euphoric expectations placed in intermittent fasting, it also shows that this method is not less beneficial than conventional weight loss diets. "In addition, for some people it seems to be easier to be very disciplined on two days instead of counting calories and limiting food every day," explained Tilman Kühn, leading scientist of the trial. "But in order to keep the new body weight, people must also permanently switch to a balanced diet following DGE recommendations," he added.

According to Kühn, the study results show that it is not primarily the dietary method that matters but that it is more important to decide on a method and then follow through with it. "The same evidence is also suggested in a current study comparing low-carb and low-fat diets, that is, reducing carbohydrates versus reducing fat intake while otherwise having a balanced diet," said Kühn. In this study, participants also achieved comparable results with both methods.

[Nobody]

McDonald’s is a social and healthcare burden – whatever its charity PR might indicate - The Conversation

McDonald’s is a social, fiscal, healthcare burden in Ireland and presumably everywhere else it sells its delicious, convenient, cheap food that is high in sugar, salt and fat.

Our failure to mitigate this is symptomatic of a moralistic view of obesity as a personal choice, despite the fact that the nature of the spread of the obesity epidemic is also down to dietary environmental factors, such as the widespread introduction of cheap and potent sweetening agents such as high fructose corn syrup.

McDonald’s should be less concerned about their public relations and market share and more concerned about a changing sentiment...

From the cited article.

One candidate is the change to US farm bills in the 1970s, which led to a rapid increase in food production and thus an increase in food portion sizes;6 accelerated marketing, availability, and affordability of energy dense foods;7 and widespread introduction of cheap and potent sweetening agents, such as high-fructose corn syrup, which infiltrated the food system and affected the whole population simultaneously.8 Although other countries that are experiencing a sharp rise in obesity rates might not have the equivalent of the US farm bill, most have been exposed to similar substantial changes in food supplies, with consequences for dietary patterns, such as increased portion sizes.

So basically, the USDA is largely responsible for the US - and by extension, the world's - obesity epidemic.
Energy dense foods appear to be the primary culprit in their many forms. The hypothesised mechanism being that they fool the body into under-reporting calorie intake to the brain by a small percentage. Portion sizes matter for these foods, since like poisons, the effects are dose dependent. Add to that many energy dense foods' addictive nature that appears to circumvent normal satiety behaviour and many people have a battle to keep the weight off.
Visited my sister and her family a few days ago. Just like with specialist I see, I could see the step in the weight gain of the whole family from some months ago. It's just the way society is now. Most are getting progressively overweight/obese.

[mikesbytes]

Agree about that Nobody

Say McDonalds got banned, all we would probably see is that the stores would be replaced with a similar company and if you remember my Tuesday lunchtime experiments, amazing as it might sound other companies are even worse.

There's no simple solution as it can't even be agreed on as to what is healthy and what is not, there's no clear metric like there is with tobacco and alcohol. I proposed a calorie tax a while back in this thread and problems with the idea were pointed such as avocardo's. To me it seems that only legislation that uses profitability as a driver will drive improvements in their offerings

[Nobody]

Say McDonalds got banned, all we would probably see is that the stores would be replaced with a similar company and if you remember my Tuesday lunchtime experiments, amazing as it might sound other companies are even worse.

Yeah, IMO KFC has generally always been worse McDonalds for health. For some reason McDonalds appears to fly the flag for a successful, unhealthy fast food business, for many of those who comment on unhealthy food. The local deep fried type take away food is probably worse than McDonalds too.

There's no simple solution as it can't even be agreed on as to what is healthy and what is not, there's no clear metric like there is with tobacco and alcohol.

I think the science is reasonably clear for most foods. It's just that the food industries are still winning in their game of deception. Which includes instilling in us the illusion of knowledge on diet over generations through marketing and funding deceptive studies. For all we know the academics that oppose agreement on what is healthy could be secretly be on some industry's payroll. Governments have also fallen for it. We have the CSIRO promoting animal products as healthy. It's going to be difficult for me (as an unqualified in diet) to convince anyone that animal products are harmful while that is going on. As CK would put it, the average person is in the matrix and it's going to be very hard for them (whether in a leadership role or not) to be convinced that what they've learnt all their lives, from trusted sources, is wrong.

I proposed a calorie tax a while back in this thread and problems with the idea were pointed such as avocardo's. To me it seems that only legislation that uses profitability as a driver will drive improvements in their offerings

Taxes might help a little. But it's going to take a large cultural change for the situation to significantly improve. I don't think it's going to happen. I think the tiny minority of healthier eaters will grow as more people get (self) educated on the benefits of diet. But the majority are circling the drain and I'm seeing that worsen as the various (poor health) food industries get better at helping people to become fatter and/or less healthy.

[mikesbytes]

I proposed a calorie tax a while back in this thread and problems with the idea were pointed such as avocardo's. To me it seems that only legislation that uses profitability as a driver will drive improvements in their offerings

Taxes might help a little. But it's going to take a large cultural change for the situation to significantly improve. I don't think it's going to happen. I think the tiny minority of healthier eaters will grow as more people get (self) educated on the benefits of diet. But the majority are circling the drain and I'm seeing that worsen as the various (poor health) food industries get better at helping people to become fatter and/or less healthy.

Whether the food industry customers get fatter and/or less healthy is not a concern to them as they don't incur the costs associated with poor health. The costs associated with poor heath are funded by the tax payer ie you and me.

Food itself is not the major cost to the fast food industry, the real cost is the facility, staff, marketing etc. The fast food industry has made some initiatives to improve profitability within their business;
1. Making the default product a meal (its a bad word but its the word they use). That means combining the main item, such as a burger with hot chips and a soft drink. This has 2 financial benefits;
1.1 Reduced labour costs as the duration of the transaction as the customer doesn't need to decide and specify each item in the order
1.2 Increased food per sale and as the food itself is not the real cost, that makes for greater profits.
2. The upsize. Ie changes to a medium or large meal which usually means a larger portion of chips and soft drink. A tiny increase in food cost while not changing base costs mentioned above

There's at least 3 solutions to this;
1. The ideal solution [insert your version of the ideal solution]. While being the ultimate goal, I think it would be extremely difficult to get society to accept this in the short term.
2. A small step, the first of many. I see the calorie tax as a significant candidate for the first step. The experts could fine tune it to deal with issues such as avocado's
3. Heavy healthy marketing. Who's going to pay for it and what is going to be marketed

BTY are there any countries where there's been a reversal of food induced health issues?

[Nobody]

There's at least 3 solutions to this;
...
2. A small step, the first of many. I see the calorie tax as a significant candidate for the first step. The experts could fine tune it to deal with issues such as avocado's

The fine tuning should be easy enough. Similar to the GST food exemptions, just make fruit, veg, nuts/seeds & whole grains exempt.

3. Heavy healthy marketing. Who's going to pay for it and what is going to be marketed

It worked for Finland. Please see below. There should be tangible citizen productivity benefits, but most governments appear short sighted when it comes to health.

BTY are there any countries where there's been a reversal of food induced health issues?

Yes, Finland. 80% drop in CHD by actively discouraging saturated fat intake. But of course some may inform us that saturated fat doesn't matter.


As a side note, notice who was 3rd on that CHD list in 1973.

[mikesbytes]

That's great Nobody, thanks for posting, top marks to Finland. I wish Australia could change its attitude to nutrition and incidental exercise (yeh that's a topic for another thread)

In regards to health marketing, where to spend the money has already been worked out, simply market where the fast food companies spend their marketing, they know how to hit their customers

[CKinnard]

That's great Nobody, thanks for posting, top marks to Finland. I wish Australia could change its attitude to nutrition and incidental exercise (yeh that's a topic for another thread)

In regards to health marketing, where to spend the money has already been worked out, simply market where the fast food companies spend their marketing, they know how to hit their customers

This explains the Finnish experience, and extra.
https://www.theguardian.com/befit/story ... 45,00.html

I note in this article, they say that a NZ initiative for GPs to prescribe exercise/activity similarly to drugs, was very successful.
This fits with my belief that many people want guidance, but it is best coming from doctors, who the public respect as the most knowledgeable about everything health. If a doctor can say this you have hypertension and arrhythmia, but the best thing for it is not drugs, but diet and exercise, people are more likely to adopt that advice.

[CKinnard]

https://www.news.com.au/national/breaki ... 621d4fc2b6
Study links Paleo diet to heart disease
"Australian researchers have found elevated levels of a biomarker linked to heart disease in the blood of people on the Paleo diet, possibly caused by red meat."

This will reinvigorate the diet wars.

HappyHealthyVegan has been quick to get on top of this study's findings.



The following is a great refresher to counter any LCers that want to debunk the relationship between carnitine intake and atherosclerosis.

[Nobody]

This will reinvigorate the diet wars.

I hope it helps paleo advocates to think about the self harm they're promoting. These kind of results leave Cordain nowhere since his diet clearly doesn't help with long term weight loss, if he and Sally Fallon are accurate examples of paleo.

This is why I try to let people know about possible problems with plant based (or plant only) eating. As I want to have a clean conscience in regard to promoting harm to others.

[RhapsodyX]

So, that would be the Strict-Paleo or the Pseudo-Paleo cohort? Didn't read the study? Hmmm....

No argument re. consumption of red meat, but seriously... the repeated generalisation about what "Paleo" and "Low Carb" means is rather old.

[CKinnard]

This will reinvigorate the diet wars.

I hope it helps paleo advocates to think about the self harm they're promoting. These kind of results leave Cordain nowhere since his diet clearly doesn't help with long term weight loss, if he and Sally Fallon are accurate examples of paleo.

This is why I try to let people know about possible problems with plant based (or plant only) eating. As I want to have a clean conscience in regard to promoting harm to others.

Yikes, I did an image search for Sally Fallon!!! There's strong indication she has significant degeneration of renal function and unhealthy diet (fluid retention associated with reduced capacity to handle dietary sodium).

As I raised elsewhere, conventional renal studies (eGFR, creatinine clearance) are extremely insensitive to loss of renal function.
The kidney has reserve capacity which deteriorates well before these markers are compromised.

For a good explanation of reserve capacity and its testing,
http://www.pulmonarychronicles.com/inde ... e/481/1067

So studying the effect of diet on kidney function should measure effect on reserve capacity, which is done by renal stress testing. Two tests are :

- renal functional reserve, which is incidentally performed by taking a large dose of protein (amino acids). High protein loads STRESS renal function!!!

- furosemide stress test, injection of furosemide used moreso for inpatients at risk of acute kidney injury.


I would bet money on it that the Weston A. Price Foundation staff and medical professional supporters have ZERO comprehension of renal functional reserve and how it is measured.... nor carnitine and choline intake on TMAO!

[warthog1]

https://www.news.com.au/national/breaki ... 621d4fc2b6
Study links Paleo diet to heart disease
"Australian researchers have found elevated levels of a biomarker linked to heart disease in the blood of people on the Paleo diet, possibly caused by red meat."

This will reinvigorate the diet wars.

HappyHealthyVegan has been quick to get on top of this study's findings.



The following is a great refresher to counter any LCers that want to debunk the relationship between carnitine intake and atherosclerosis.

Thanks CK.
My son has swallowed some rubbish recently with respect to a low carb diet.
One of his basketball mates has been in his ear, apparently Kobe Bryant or some other basketball celebrity was on it
I'll show him those.

[Nobody]

I would bet money on it that the Weston A. Price Foundation staff and medical professional supporters have ZERO comprehension of renal functional reserve and how it is measured.... nor carnitine and choline intake on TMAO!

I did a search for Weston A. Price as I didn't know who they were. On their site I found the following about the differences between their diet and the paleo diet. Their view on dietary saturated fat and cholesterol alone highlight that they live in a dreamworld.
https://www.westonaprice.org/health-top ... aleo-diet/

[CKinnard]

I did a search for Weston A. Price as I didn't know who they were. On their site I found the following about the differences between their diet and the paleo diet. Their view on dietary saturated fat and cholesterol alone highlight that they live in a dreamworld.
https://www.westonaprice.org/health-top ... aleo-diet/

"Sally Fallon is the founder and president of the Weston A. Price Foundation, which promotes wise traditions in food and farming."

https://www.westonaprice.org/about-us/w ... on-morell/

[Nobody]

OK, thanks CK. You can tell I'm not into this scene.

[CKinnard]

OK, thanks CK. You can tell I'm not into this scene.

Neither am I. You mentioned Sally Fallon, and I didn't know who she is....so I looked her up...and whatdya know, she's the founder of one of the most regressive and scientifically illiterate and unaccountable organizations in the nutrition sphere.

[CKinnard]

Ladies and Gents, introducing .... The Gladiator Diet



and a reminder of the diet of the world's most supreme endurance exercise communities - Tarahumara Indian and Kenyan distance runners.

[Nobody]

Ladies and Gents, introducing .... The Gladiator Diet...and a reminder of the diet of the world's most supreme endurance exercise communities - Tarahumara Indian and Kenyan distance runners.

Reminds me of...

https://www.drmcdougall.com/misc/2010nl ... werful.htm

I briefly saw McDougall's latest webinar (which probably isn't worth one's time to watch). The main message was he's starting to do interview webinars and he has a fairly long list of people to interview IIRC. Two I found of interest are Greger and Fuhrman who have both agreed to come on. He said he would be asking them the hard questions. They may turn out to be interesting to watch.

[CKinnard]

Worth a listen



Lots of pearls re the superior athletic endurance of vegetarian diet, and certainly relevant to my work.

Tests mentioned
- holding both arms out horizontally (they don't say whether arms were forward or to the sides, which would make a difference)
group average time achieved in minutes : flesh eaters 39 : flesh abstainers 64

- full bodyweight squats
group average number : flesh eaters 383 : abstainers 927

- supine leg raises (they don't say whether alternating or bilateral leg lifts)
group average number : flesh eaters 279 : abstainers 288
This test would be seriously confounded by sit up training and/or abdominal strength, and tests muscles in a non functional manner (people have not evolved in a manner to for this movement to offer a competitive or survival advantage).


Cited
Nieman DC. Vegetarian dietary practices and endurance performance. Am J Clin Nutr. 1988;48(3 Suppl):754-61.
full text
https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... erformance

Fisher I. The Influence of Flesh Eating on Endurance. Yale Medical Journal. 1907; 5: 205-221
full text
https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id= ... 0098881653

Yale's Flesh Eating Atheletes Beaten in Severe Endurance Tests. New York Times. March 22 1907
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1FZHT2 ... XjlzGRaPRS

[Nobody]

Interesting. Thanks for posting.

Of course "flesh abstainers" were probably still eating dairy and eggs in 1907.

When I first started my diet change to "flesh abstaining" I found intense aerobic efforts less painful than previously. Of course, hill climbing is still "no walk in the park". When I was a "flesh eater" the worst thing I could do before a ride was to eat something like sausages.

[CKinnard]

Interesting. Thanks for posting.

Of course "flesh abstainers" were probably still eating dairy and eggs in 1907.

When I first started my diet change to "flesh abstaining" I found intense aerobic efforts less painful than previously. Of course, hill climbing is still "no walk in the park". When I was a "flesh eater" the worst thing I could do before a ride was to eat something like sausages.

yes, I noticed similar massive increase in cardio when I went ovolacto when 18yo.
I noticed it most when surfing. I was able to paddle out through large and cyclone swells better and for longer than anyone else i knew.
I also held records in skipping (skips in 10 minutes) and rowing ergometer (greatest distance in 20 minutes) at a local cutting edge gym in Brisbane in my first 2 years abstaining from flesh.

[mikesbytes]

Article doesn't explain the Danish Doctor's conclusion

https://voiceofeurope.com/2018/12/danis ... 0.facebook

[CKinnard]

Article doesn't explain the Danish Doctor's conclusion

https://voiceofeurope.com/2018/12/danis ... 0.facebook

I can understand his concern, because a lot of vegans don't supplement or eat a balanced diet.
And there needs to be more awareness of the need for quality nutrition when conceiving, pregnant, and breastfeeding.
It helps to keep in mind veganism is primarily an ideological sub culture, that is becoming more and more sociopolitical.
There's less focus on nutrition quality and more on LGBTQIXYZ and Marxist issues. I had this discussion with a couple of naive WFPB authorities last year, who are totally blinkered in awareness of how veganism has been integrated and exploited by the Left (not that there's anything wrong with that?

Science still denies any understanding of why there's an autism, allergy, and auto-immune epidemic in Western civilization (and they are convinced it has nothing to do with vaccinations ).

Many younger mothers also need to understand they should not be doing illicit drugs including marijuana, even passively.
This is a bigger issue than most realize.
Many babies being brought into the world welfare dependent in Australia are not brought up in a wholesome environment.

[march83]

LGBTQIXYZ

You do yourself a disservice by saying things like this.