Priorities!...
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Re: Priorities!...
Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Tue Apr 14, 2009 1:29 pm
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Re: Priorities!...
Postby twizzle » Tue Apr 14, 2009 2:09 pm
Alex Simmons/RST wrote:Fat loss comes about through a sustained calorie deficit.
But there must be a metabolic rate tie-in, otherwise people would have consistent weigh loss for given input/output. Before my knees played up two years ago, I was consistently knocking off 1kg/week. Now I have to starve myself & kill myself to achieve the same results - and I HATE feeling hungry all the time. But, when I started racing (once or twice a week), even though the total k's were around the same or slightly less I started losing weight again... a consistent .5kg/week for about six weeks. Now there's a break from racing, I'm back to about .2kg - .25kg/week.
Shiteloads of references on the net about Human Growth Hormone triggered by lactic acid production. Not scientific, however.
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Re: Priorities!...
Postby toolonglegs » Tue Apr 14, 2009 3:31 pm
![Rolling Eyes :roll:](./images/smilies/icon_rolleyes.gif)
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Re: Priorities!...
Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Tue Apr 14, 2009 3:56 pm
sounds more like you were simply burning more calories while racing, and probably eating less calories as well.twizzle wrote:Alex Simmons/RST wrote:Fat loss comes about through a sustained calorie deficit.
But there must be a metabolic rate tie-in, otherwise people would have consistent weigh loss for given input/output. Before my knees played up two years ago, I was consistently knocking off 1kg/week. Now I have to starve myself & kill myself to achieve the same results - and I HATE feeling hungry all the time. But, when I started racing (once or twice a week), even though the total k's were around the same or slightly less I started losing weight again... a consistent .5kg/week for about six weeks. Now there's a break from racing, I'm back to about .2kg - .25kg/week.
Shiteloads of references on the net about Human Growth Hormone triggered by lactic acid production. Not scientific, however.
unless you are measuring accurately both the supply and demand side, you are just speculating.
at ~ 9kcal/gram of body fat, 250 grams of body fat =~ 2250kcal over a week (320kcal/day), which isn't hard to eat (or drink). 1 beer is half of that.
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Re: Priorities!...
Postby twizzle » Tue Apr 14, 2009 4:13 pm
...real cyclists don't have squeaky chains...
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Re: Priorities!...
Postby Nobody » Tue Apr 14, 2009 6:31 pm
If I really want to lose weight I avoid bread and sugar. Appears to work for me.
Edit: Spelling correction.
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Re: Priorities!...
Postby Ant. » Tue Apr 14, 2009 8:45 pm
Incorrect.twizzle wrote:And the other thing to consider is that the energy value of food is calculated by burning a sample in an sealed oxygen environment and calculating how much energy is released by measuring the temperature increase in the environment : there is no accurate picture of how this equates to food intake in the human body. Obviously pure fat or pure sugar is going to be absorbed really well, but what's a muesli bar really worth?
Nutritional labels quote the metabolic energy of the food, not the raw energy.
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Re: Priorities!...
Postby Ant. » Tue Apr 14, 2009 8:52 pm
Exercise, excitement, trauma, acute hypoglycaemia (bonking) all trigger growth hormone secretion (the latter being quite potent).twizzle wrote: Shiteloads of references on the net about Human Growth Hormone triggered by lactic acid production. Not scientific, however.
But remind me... what does growth hormone have to do with this, really?
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Re: Priorities!...
Postby drubie » Tue Apr 14, 2009 11:00 pm
Or switch exclusively to brown bread and wholemeal pasta and avoid refined wheat and sugar.Nobody wrote:I may as well add to the speculation by saying that until the intensity increased in my exercise, I didn't lose much/any weight. Like others, I believe that intense exercise in an appetite modifier.
If I really want to lose weight I avoid bread and sugar. Appears to work for me.
The only other thing that tore weigh off me in the past other than racing was the rowing machine at the gym. 15 minutes of that at a high setting for 6 weeks, five days a week was like carving chunks of fat off my own carcass in pain terms. It worked though. And, unlike swimming, didn't seem to come with the muscle bulking effect that TLL sees when he swims (me too - swimming for inefficient swimmers like me is basically a long weights session or it seems like it).
but really, that's rubbish. We get none of it because the choices are illusory.
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Re: Priorities!...
Postby twizzle » Wed Apr 15, 2009 8:15 am
I never said 'Nutritional labels'. However, you are fairly correct - the labels show estimated calorie value. Read the bit about the five official five official ways to estimate the caloric content of food products. The basis for the numbers starts with a bomb calorimeter. The rest is educated guesswork. And, from personal experience, if your digestive enzymes aren't up to scratch - it's all meaningless anyway, as you can't convert the food into simple sugars for absorption.Ant. wrote:Incorrect.twizzle wrote:And the other thing to consider is that the energy value of food is calculated by burning a sample in an sealed oxygen environment and calculating how much energy is released by measuring the temperature increase in the environment : there is no accurate picture of how this equates to food intake in the human body. Obviously pure fat or pure sugar is going to be absorbed really well, but what's a muesli bar really worth?
Nutritional labels quote the metabolic energy of the food, not the raw energy.
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Re: Priorities!...
Postby twizzle » Wed Apr 15, 2009 9:11 am
You obviously know a fair bit about this, so you should probably be telling us.Ant. wrote:Exercise, excitement, trauma, acute hypoglycaemia (bonking) all trigger growth hormone secretion (the latter being quite potent).twizzle wrote: Shiteloads of references on the net about Human Growth Hormone triggered by lactic acid production. Not scientific, however.
But remind me... what does growth hormone have to do with this, really?
But I think this sums it up for everyone else.
And I just did some poking around looking for the article on the 'eight second sprint, twelve seconds recovery' (see article quoted here), and the key is supposed to be Catecholamine. And there was me thinking it was related to driving yourself lactic with over-the-top sprinting...
![Rolling Eyes :roll:](./images/smilies/icon_rolleyes.gif)
Edit: HGH link changed to something less commercial.
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Re: Priorities!...
Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Wed Apr 15, 2009 12:14 pm
Not for me it doesn't.twizzle wrote:But I think this sums it up for everyone else.
![Shocked :shock:](./images/smilies/icon_eek.gif)
1. It's doping* to use such a product
2. We already burn mostly fat when sleeping or indeed during activity up to light to moderate exercise levels (we don't need extra HGH to do what our body already does naturally)
3. The fuel substrate used is irrelevant, it's total calories that matter
4. It makes no mention of potential undesireable side effects of using HGH
* as defined by WADA and as applied to our sport
Looking for these short cuts is really just the wrong way.
Train to get fit
Eat to get lean
Recover well
It's a hard sport, so be preapred for some hard work.
Metabolic disorders aside - but these are rare.
As an example of silly logic, since we burn what we eat, then if you want to "burn" more fat, then eat more fat ('cause that's what'll happen).
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Re: Priorities!...
Postby twizzle » Wed Apr 15, 2009 12:34 pm
Doh! We aren't talking about doping, we are talking about effects of deliberately going lactic in training!Alex Simmons/RST wrote:Not for me it doesn't.twizzle wrote:But I think this sums it up for everyone else.![]()
1. It's doping* to use such a product
2. We already burn mostly fat when sleeping or indeed during activity up to light to moderate exercise levels (we don't need extra HGH to do what our body already does naturally)
3. The fuel substrate used is irrelevant, it's total calories that matter
4. It makes no mention of potential undesireable side effects of using HGH
* as defined by WADA and as applied to our sport
Looking for these short cuts is really just the wrong way.
Train to get fit
Eat to get lean
Recover well
It's a hard sport, so be preapred for some hard work.
Metabolic disorders aside - but these are rare.
As an example of silly logic, since we burn what we eat, then if you want to "burn" more fat, then eat more fat ('cause that's what'll happen).
...real cyclists don't have squeaky chains...
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Re: Priorities!...
Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Wed Apr 15, 2009 5:33 pm
Hmmm. Well why post a link to an ad for HGH products?twizzle wrote:Doh! We aren't talking about doping, we are talking about effects of deliberately going lactic in training!
I see nothing there about hard efforts on a bike and impact on metabolism.
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Re: Priorities!...
Postby twizzle » Wed Apr 15, 2009 8:35 pm
Because it gave (IMO) a concise answer to Ant's question :Alex Simmons/RST wrote:Hmmm. Well why post a link to an ad for HGH products?twizzle wrote:Doh! We aren't talking about doping, we are talking about effects of deliberately going lactic in training!
I see nothing there about hard efforts on a bike and impact on metabolism.
Some people can lose weight and gain muscle without any effort at all. There's a guy I ride with who only started riding again in October after six years off the bike, and went from struggling in E grade to kicking ass in B grade over the summer, lost ~10kg, and developed some of the biggest leg muscles I've ever seen - and he does around the same training K's that I do. Meanwhile, TLL and myself put in thousands of K's (TLL more so)... to stay pretty much where we were (weight). There is obviously more to it than just calories in/out. I'm not trying to cheat, I'm trying to work out if I can get back to the 1kg-per-week without starving myself and feeling dead all the time.But remind me... what does growth hormone have to do with this, really?
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Re: Priorities!...
Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Wed Apr 15, 2009 9:10 pm
And that probably because:twizzle wrote:Some people can lose weight and gain muscle without any effort at all. There's a guy I ride with who only started riding again in October after six years off the bike, and went from struggling in E grade to kicking ass in B grade over the summer, lost ~10kg, and developed some of the biggest leg muscles I've ever seen - and he does around the same training K's that I do. Meanwhile, TLL and myself put in thousands of K's (TLL more so)... to stay pretty much where we were (weight). There is obviously more to it than just calories in/out. I'm not trying to cheat, I'm trying to work out if I can get back to the 1kg-per-week without starving myself and feeling dead all the time.
- he eats fewer calories than you, and/or
- his basal metabolic rate is higher than yours (higher calories out), and/or
- his kms are harder than yours (higher calories out)
It's still calorie balance that results in fat gain/loss over the course of a period of time.
Attempting to drop 1kg / week is, IMO/E, not a sensible plan. Half that at the most would be better.
Slow changes are generally better as they indicate the in/out balance is sustainable and generally means the habits formed are easier to maintain and only minor adjustments are needed to move back into a calorie balance (rather than wild swings in food intake).
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Re: Priorities!...
Postby lemmiwinks » Wed Apr 15, 2009 9:38 pm
Bicycling Australia Jan/Feb 2009 page 78 Lose Five Kilos in Four Weeks. You could try that if you're keen (looked like a royal PITA to me but I'm not very committed), has a training and meal plan for the whole shebang. You can read it online though I don't know how much trouble/expense it is to register.twizzle wrote:I'm not trying to cheat, I'm trying to work out if I can get back to the 1kg-per-week without starving myself and feeling dead all the time.
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Re: Priorities!...
Postby twizzle » Thu Apr 16, 2009 11:23 am
I have the mag - I put it into the starvation diet category. Well - for me it would be starvation, for some of the weedy 70kg riders it might be more than they currently eat.lemmiwinks wrote:Bicycling Australia Jan/Feb 2009 page 78 Lose Five Kilos in Four Weeks. You could try that if you're keen (looked like a royal PITA to me but I'm not very committed), has a training and meal plan for the whole shebang. You can read it online though I don't know how much trouble/expense it is to register.twizzle wrote:I'm not trying to cheat, I'm trying to work out if I can get back to the 1kg-per-week without starving myself and feeling dead all the time.
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Re: Priorities!...
Postby drubie » Thu Apr 16, 2009 11:52 am
I'd agree habits are important - there are lots of changes you can make to the average diet that don't seem like starvation but still reduce the overall amount of calories you eat. I think where a lot of people make mistakes is in thinking the health food section of the local supermarket has decent food in it. I don't exactly know when carob slathered biscuits and gluten free cakes became health food per-se, but the local Woolies in infested with that junk that has the same (or worse) number of calories than the rubbish it's substituting for.Alex Simmons/RST wrote:
Slow changes are generally better as they indicate the in/out balance is sustainable and generally means the habits formed are easier to maintain and only minor adjustments are needed to move back into a calorie balance (rather than wild swings in food intake).
However, If you're overweight, I think there's something to be said for a shortish period of faster weight loss as it can help your exercise efforts by making it not quite so unpleasant and making harder efforts more attainable and working on some goals so it makes it easier to transition to a period of calorie balance as your exercise requirements are not quite so onerous. Once you've reached that level of performance, it (to me) becomes easier to eat better as you realise the importance of better quality fuel as a component of your cycling and the achievement of "rewards" like a better average speed or smoking somebody who beat you last time.
but really, that's rubbish. We get none of it because the choices are illusory.
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Re: Priorities!...
Postby Ant. » Fri Apr 17, 2009 2:42 pm
Incorrect, there is not more to it than calories in/out, some people just do a worse job at estimating what they burn and what they put in.twizzle wrote:Because it gave (IMO) a concise answer to Ant's rhetorical question :Alex Simmons/RST wrote:Hmmm. Well why post a link to an ad for HGH products?twizzle wrote:Doh! We aren't talking about doping, we are talking about effects of deliberately going lactic in training!
I see nothing there about hard efforts on a bike and impact on metabolism.Some people can lose weight and gain muscle without any effort at all. There's a guy I ride with who only started riding again in October after six years off the bike, and went from struggling in E grade to kicking ass in B grade over the summer, lost ~10kg, and developed some of the biggest leg muscles I've ever seen - and he does around the same training K's that I do. Meanwhile, TLL and myself put in thousands of K's (TLL more so)... to stay pretty much where we were (weight). There is obviously more to it than just calories in/out. I'm not trying to cheat, I'm trying to work out if I can get back to the 1kg-per-week without starving myself and feeling dead all the time.But remind me... what does growth hormone have to do with this, really?
(However, there is more to going from E grade to B grade over summer than just weight loss
![Wink :wink:](./images/smilies/icon_wink.gif)
Also, see what I done above?
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Re: Priorities!...
Postby lemmiwinks » Fri Apr 17, 2009 3:17 pm
Me too!twizzle wrote:I have the mag - I put it into the starvation diet category.lemmiwinks wrote:Bicycling Australia Jan/Feb 2009 page 78 Lose Five Kilos in Four Weeks. You could try that if you're keen (looked like a royal PITA to me but I'm not very committed), has a training and meal plan for the whole shebang. You can read it online though I don't know how much trouble/expense it is to register.
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Re: Priorities!...
Postby toolonglegs » Fri Apr 17, 2009 5:06 pm
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Re: Priorities!...
Postby toolonglegs » Thu Apr 30, 2009 9:59 pm
Train late,eat little...lose weight faster than you can imagine!!!.
My new moto
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Re: Priorities!...
Postby goneriding » Mon May 04, 2009 2:08 pm
This is all he consumes for a week and this causes him to drop significant weight. You can only do this for a week at a time and you cannot train hard whilst doing this.
He swears by it.
Might be something to look into. It would be very tough in France to find Brie though
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Re: Priorities!...
Postby sogood » Mon May 04, 2009 2:16 pm
If that's what it takes to loose weight, then so be it, make yourself feel like you've been starved. The fact remains, your present diet is not putting you in negative caloric balance hence no weight loss. So HTFU and feel the hunger!toolonglegs wrote:I seriously have to feel like I am starving myself to lose weight...oh well..thems the breaks.
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