Vinokourov out of the tour - from one crisis to another

Tour de France, Giro d'Italia, Vuelta a España, Tour Down Under and more

Postby sogood » Wed Jul 25, 2007 12:09 pm

I like Cadel Evans and Contador. They have style. Ras has been clouded by all the allegations and is no saint in my mind.
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by BNA » Wed Jul 25, 2007 12:15 pm

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Postby MichaelB » Wed Jul 25, 2007 12:15 pm

Given that he has tested positive, do his results get stripped ? i.e. Cadel gets first in the TT and all of the times are adjusted to suit ?

Same as for his Stage 15 win ? Does the 2nd place person now get 1st and all of the KoM points get adjusted ?
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Postby Hotdog » Wed Jul 25, 2007 12:18 pm

sogood wrote:I often wondered, why don't the doping police just check for needle marks on these people? For blood transfusions, you really need a big 14G needle. It's hard to hide these needle marks.

It'd be intrusive and labour intensive but I'd have thought it'd work and it's probably the only way to detect moderate levels of autologous blood doping. Needle marks might be obscured by road rash, etc., though. Might make sense in cases where there's already suspicion on an individual but not for large scale screening.

Hmmmmmm, I wonder what sort of person would apply for the job. Wanted: Thorough individual with excellent attention to detail and good eyesight required to visually inspect every square centimetre of ProTour cyclists' bodies :shock:
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Postby toolonglegs » Wed Jul 25, 2007 12:19 pm

:wink:
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Postby sogood » Wed Jul 25, 2007 12:36 pm

Hotdog wrote:Hmmmmmm, I wonder what sort of person would apply for the job. Wanted: Thorough individual with excellent attention to detail and good eyesight required to visually inspect every square centimetre of ProTour cyclists' bodies :shock:

Hehe... Well, it's just another mode of detection. Actually, needle marks are not hard to detect. After all, there are only a limited number of locations for these infusions before you start to talk about intra-cardiac punctures... :shock:

But toolonglegs point is relevant. If athletes are permitted to take injection/infusions for other reasons, then checking for needle marks would be of no value.
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Postby tallywhacker » Wed Jul 25, 2007 12:57 pm

just trying to be the devils advocate here, but he did sustain some fairly severe injuries from his crash that required upto 60 stitches in knees and elbow (according to Phil and Paul). I would assume that there would be a fair amount of blood loss that would possibly require a blood transfusion ? My understanding of the doping test that he failed was that it detected two different types of red blood cells which is indicative of blood doping. Could this not be as a result of a blood transfusion ?
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Postby sogood » Wed Jul 25, 2007 1:04 pm

tallywhacker wrote:just trying to be the devils advocate here, but he did sustain some fairly severe injuries from his crash that required upto 60 stitches in knees and elbow (according to Phil and Paul). I would assume that there would be a fair amount of blood loss that would possibly require a blood transfusion ? My understanding of the doping test that he failed was that it detected two different types of red blood cells which is indicative of blood doping. Could this not be as a result of a blood transfusion ?

The amount of blood loss from the injuries sustained is minimal in the scheme of things. Blood loss always look more than the actual volume. And if the loss was sufficient to warrant a transfusion, then he would have been taken by ambulance and not have completed the stage. And if he did have a transfusion for medical reason, the team should have applied for permission and not have kept it hidden.

And I bet even Stuart O'Grady didn't get a blood transfusion for the amount injuries he received. And could have easily lost a unit of blood with all the fractures he sustained. And there he is sitting in high dependency care.
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Postby toolonglegs » Wed Jul 25, 2007 1:10 pm

:wink:
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Postby Aushiker » Wed Jul 25, 2007 1:33 pm

europa wrote:I heard about it on the ABC which manages to remain very neutral, but you can hear the cycling critics gloating. Richard


Jeff Hutchinson on ABC local radio station here in Perth, 720, called it the Tour de Farce .... pretty much sums it up.

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Postby toolonglegs » Wed Jul 25, 2007 1:43 pm

:D
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Must be a problem with the testing procedures

Postby Kalgrm » Wed Jul 25, 2007 1:46 pm

I believe he's completely innocent: they all signed a charter to say they were drug-free and would remain so. He would never go back on his word, so there must be a mistake in the tests.

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Re: Must be a problem with the testing procedures

Postby sogood » Wed Jul 25, 2007 1:57 pm

Kalgrm wrote:I believe he's completely innocent: they all signed a charter to say they were drug-free and would remain so. He would never go back on his word, so there must be a mistake in the tests.

The worst of those is Floyd Landis. He is using typical American PR machine to defend his case. Now he even has a book out defending his innocence. I think these people are pathetic, willing to continue to spin a lie and drag the whole sport into disrepute.
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Postby Mulger bill » Wed Jul 25, 2007 7:51 pm

DAMN DAMN DAMN! :evil:

A pox on all who conspire to fuggup what should be the worlds greatest example of the worlds greatest sport.

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Postby sogood » Wed Jul 25, 2007 7:57 pm

Mulger bill wrote:*slumping dejectedly in his chair

This is an emergency! This man needs a transfusion!!! 8)
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Postby Kev365428 » Thu Jul 26, 2007 5:57 am

MichaelB wrote:Given that he has tested positive, do his results get stripped ? i.e. Cadel gets first in the TT and all of the times are adjusted to suit ?

Same as for his Stage 15 win ? Does the 2nd place person now get 1st and all of the KoM points get adjusted ?


Yep. Cadel gets first in the TT.

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Postby sogood » Thu Jul 26, 2007 9:32 am

Kev365428 wrote:Yep. Cadel gets first in the TT.

And the time bonus!
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Postby MichaelB » Thu Jul 26, 2007 11:59 am

sogood wrote:
Kev365428 wrote:Yep. Cadel gets first in the TT.

And the time bonus!


How much ?
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Postby Aushiker » Thu Jul 26, 2007 12:24 pm

MichaelB wrote:
sogood wrote:
Kev365428 wrote:Yep. Cadel gets first in the TT.

And the time bonus!


How much ?


Not 100% sure but I thought they mentioned 20 seconds last night for a stage win, and then it goes down from there.

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Postby sogood » Thu Jul 26, 2007 12:26 pm

MichaelB wrote:
sogood wrote:
Kev365428 wrote:Yep. Cadel gets first in the TT.

And the time bonus!

How much ?

Not sure. But every bit helps at this point in time. But bear in mind that Contador also will pick up some extra time with Ras' exit.
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Postby moosterbounce » Thu Jul 26, 2007 12:57 pm

sogood wrote:
Kev365428 wrote:Yep. Cadel gets first in the TT.

And the time bonus!


I didn't think there was a time bonus in the TT. There is a good article explaining what happens with all those bonuses here under Vinokourov Repercussions - if you can work it out, tell us all!! :?
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Postby europa » Thu Jul 26, 2007 1:38 pm

A quote from the article Moo linked to:

In an interview with Cyclingnews earlier this month, Kazakh Ambassador Erlan Idrissov said the significance of a Kazakh winner on the world stage cannot be overestimated. For the youngsters of Kazakhstan - a country where a rumoured 250,000 of the 15 million population are drug addicts - the example of Vino and Andrey Kashechkin is designed to be inspirational. "Many boys and girls will jump into cycling, they will stay away from drugs and bars and they will have something to devote their lives to," Idrissov said in the interview. "The message will be that they can also achieve success like this. And the government can support this message by building modern facilities for them."


Yup boys and girls, give up drugs because your hero Vino says so, just ignore that he's been kicked out of the TdF for taking drugs :? (the semantics about blood being a drug is irrelevant in this context)

It might be hard for the Kazakh's to accept it (look at America with FLandis), but their program is pointless unless they do.

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Postby europa » Thu Jul 26, 2007 1:41 pm

Same article, on the time bonuses:

However the rules fail to state if the rider who inherits the victory is also awarded the associated time bonuses. The Tour's rules state that the first three riders who cross the line in each stage, barring the time trials, receive 20, 12 and 8 seconds respectively. This will not affect Evans, as his second place was in a TT, but it will only be known when the Tour reaches Paris if it will affect the final classification for Kirchen.


So they don't know if the bonuses will apply but it won't affect Cadel because there are no time bonuses in a TT.

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Postby europa » Thu Jul 26, 2007 1:42 pm

Same article:

Petacchi has been cleared to race again.
T-Mobile might not bother though.

Patrik Sinkewitz's positive doping test could prove to be the straw that breaks the camel's back, with a Deutsche Telekom AG spokesperson admitting the organisation will consider whether its T-Mobile division's support of the ProTour team "still makes sense". After year's of turmoil surrounding the T-Mobile name, including the exclusion of Jan Ullrich from the 2006 Tour de France after being named in the Operación Puerto scandal, 2007 has been another difficult season for the squad which has pledged to fight doping unconditionally.


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Postby europa » Thu Jul 26, 2007 1:44 pm

I can't help thinking the sponsors will clean up the sport quicker than anything else. Maybe for once we'll see some good coming from all the money poured into sporting sponsorship, even though it was that money that fuelled this whole mess in the first place.

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Postby moosterbounce » Thu Jul 26, 2007 2:21 pm

Can't help thinking I should have posted teh whole thing, not just a link :wink:

It was interesting wasn't it?

I think you are right Richard. These are high profile companies - they need to be to give in that much $ - and they are in there for one reason only. Not because they enjoy cycling, but because it is good publicity. When it starts to become bad publicity, they won't want to be associated anymore. It can't be denied that people recognise the team first (Festina Affair) so this bad publicity will go on for years.

I believe sponsors are now beginning to see the ramifications...which will mean the team management will also see it...which SHOULD have an effect on the riders (although they are dumb enough to dope so may not understand the link).

One thing that gets up my nose is there is now talk of Basso negotiating with 2 teams for when his ban is lifted!! Yeah, ok Millar has made a great return and is clean as, and Basso may do the same. Thing is, he shouldn't be negotiating now to ensure he has a career when his ban is lifted. Otherwise it is just like a long holiday for him...he will no doubt have $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ offered as teams are already fighting for someone they can't have for another 12 or so months!!

I'm all for the "do the crime, do the time" thing, and everyone deserves a second chance, but this isn't making him suffer at all. As I said, it is just a long holiday for him.

Ranting over now...I'll get back to some work :oops:
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