Training Advice

For Roadies

Training Advice

Postby CoffeeNut » Thu Aug 16, 2007 8:51 am

Ok - I'm back into it after many years off being slack and loading up that spare tyre....

Summary of my current performance/ability:

Long range stamina is fine - got that spare tyre to burn and I have a body/metabolism that works all day.

30km club rides - av 25km/h - staying with the bunch no worries - up hills we are all blowing hard, but HR to 90% and I'm not loosing it.

Long steady hills - no worries as long as I can do a smooth ramp up to 90 or 93% HR - and can then hold this for 5 or 10 mins.

Sharp hills where the rise from cruising (80% HR) to 93% HR is rapid - this is my real weakness - the lactose builds up quickly and I slip behind.

Finally the question - to work on this main weakness I need to understand it - do you think this is an issue of:
1. sheer strength (I sense this is the case)
2. muscle condition (I'm only 3 weeks back into the program after years off remember)
3. cardiovascular - O2 tpt systems

Opinions appreciated as I'll adjust my trg routine to work on this weakness.
CoffeeNut
 
Posts: 233
Joined: Thu Aug 02, 2007 11:43 pm
Location: Toowoomba

by BNA » Thu Aug 16, 2007 9:03 am

BNA
 

Postby toolonglegs » Thu Aug 16, 2007 9:03 am

if you can hold 90-93% of max hr for 5 to 10 mins after just 3 weeks back into training then I don't think you have much to worry about.Your spare tire will hold you back on the climbs as is, but you may want to try some intensity or power efforts to get your body used to ramping it up quickly.
PS you should start a bit of racing,nothing better!!! :wink:
User avatar
toolonglegs
 
Posts: 14595
Joined: Fri Jun 29, 2007 7:49 pm
Location: Somewhere with padded walls and really big hills!

Postby tallywhacker » Thu Aug 16, 2007 10:59 am

If you are looking to build strength I would suggest getting into a gym at least 3 days a week for some weight training. I have just trarted a weight programme and it's like I have a new pair of legs.
User avatar
tallywhacker
 
Posts: 1599
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2007 3:21 pm
Location: on the road

Postby sogood » Thu Aug 16, 2007 11:11 am

Needs to push that lactic threshold higher. Practice hill repeats and induce pain on each climb. Fortunately, lactic threshold is something that can be quickly improved through focused training. :D

Search for Andrew Coggan's power based interval training technique. By having an understanding of that, you'll be able to adapt specific training to target your weaknesses even without a power meter. And for those higher power level training zones, HRM is not a useful tool due to physiological delays and a loss of direct correlation. HRM only correlates better at level 4 and below training zones, hence the preference for power meter. The link below should be able to get you started.

http://www.cyclingpeakssoftware.com/power411/

BTW, lactose isn't the stuff that's building up. Think lactate, lactic acid etc. Lactose is a disaccharide. :wink:
Bianchi, Ridley, Montague, GT, Garmin and All things Apple :)
RK wrote:And that is Wikipedia - I can write my own definition.
User avatar
sogood
 
Posts: 17082
Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2006 7:31 am
Location: Sydney AU

Postby CoffeeNut » Thu Aug 16, 2007 11:55 am

great advice guys - thanks:)

1. Strength trg
2. Expand lactic threashold by hill repeats
3. Read and understand Coggan

Much appreciated.
CoffeeNut
 
Posts: 233
Joined: Thu Aug 02, 2007 11:43 pm
Location: Toowoomba

Postby toolonglegs » Thu Aug 16, 2007 12:42 pm

Just a quick question....how have you found your max heart rate?...
User avatar
toolonglegs
 
Posts: 14595
Joined: Fri Jun 29, 2007 7:49 pm
Location: Somewhere with padded walls and really big hills!

Postby europa » Thu Aug 16, 2007 2:10 pm

toolonglegs wrote:Just a quick question....how have you found your max heart rate?...


I find mine painful if I try to sustain it for too long :roll:

Richard
I had a good bike ... so I fixed it
User avatar
europa
 
Posts: 7327
Joined: Sun Jul 16, 2006 10:51 am
Location: southern end of Adelaide - home of hills, fixies and drop bears

Postby mikesbytes » Thu Aug 16, 2007 2:10 pm

toolonglegs wrote:Just a quick question....how have you found your max heart rate?...


Do you know yours?
A helmet saved my life
User avatar
mikesbytes
Super Mod
Super Mod
 
Posts: 14925
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2005 10:42 pm
Location: Tempe, Sydney

Postby CoffeeNut » Thu Aug 16, 2007 2:30 pm

how have you found your max heart rate?

I have a Polar C200 - so I have just been using the age based model it has - which is 177 for my age.

I find 93% - 167 BPM is a fair max to use - fairly hard work without blowing a foofoo valve. Just a few minutes there at the moment - building this upwards slowly
Last weeks club ride got me to 97% (173bpm) for a few mins - that really knocked me around. I spent about 16 mins above 90% on that ride and that is as hard as I'm gunna play for the moment :oops:
CoffeeNut
 
Posts: 233
Joined: Thu Aug 02, 2007 11:43 pm
Location: Toowoomba

Postby toolonglegs » Thu Aug 16, 2007 2:36 pm

mikesbytes wrote:
toolonglegs wrote:Just a quick question....how have you found your max heart rate?...


Do you know yours?


lol... i am still finding it... the highest I have seen is 194. 90% of that is 174 which is pretty close to my lactate threshold...actually it is probaly closer to 170.That why i was suprised at 178av on Saturday for 30mins.But find my heart rate is always funny after being off the bike (3 weeks this time) or having been sick.It looks like a motorbike rev counter flying up at the tiniest effort!.
User avatar
toolonglegs
 
Posts: 14595
Joined: Fri Jun 29, 2007 7:49 pm
Location: Somewhere with padded walls and really big hills!

Postby CoffeeNut » Thu Aug 16, 2007 6:34 pm

178 for 30 mins...... :shock: :shock: :shock:
CoffeeNut
 
Posts: 233
Joined: Thu Aug 02, 2007 11:43 pm
Location: Toowoomba

Postby toolonglegs » Thu Aug 16, 2007 8:46 pm

CoffeeNut wrote:
how have you found your max heart rate?

I have a Polar C200 - so I have just been using the age based model it has - which is 177 for my age.

I find 93% - 167 BPM is a fair max to use - fairly hard work without blowing a foofoo valve. Just a few minutes there at the moment - building this upwards slowly
Last weeks club ride got me to 97% (173bpm) for a few mins - that really knocked me around. I spent about 16 mins above 90% on that ride and that is as hard as I'm gunna play for the moment :oops:


The reason I ask is that if you take the 220 minus your age it is often very inaccurate.My max according to that would be 183 but is closer to 194-5.I have the same Polar model....so you may well find that you exceed your maximum heart rate one day,then you would have to reset the limits.I only really hit my max at the end of a sprint,and only then if it has been a hard race.
User avatar
toolonglegs
 
Posts: 14595
Joined: Fri Jun 29, 2007 7:49 pm
Location: Somewhere with padded walls and really big hills!

Postby CoffeeNut » Thu Aug 16, 2007 9:27 pm

Can you tell me what is the definition for MaxHR ???

Is it the absolute max you ever see in trg/race/full exertion ?
Is it a theoretical number that allows you to train at a safe % ???
CoffeeNut
 
Posts: 233
Joined: Thu Aug 02, 2007 11:43 pm
Location: Toowoomba

Postby mikesbytes » Thu Aug 16, 2007 9:43 pm

CoffeeNut wrote:Can you tell me what is the definition for MaxHR ???

Is it the absolute max you ever see in trg/race/full exertion ?
Is it a theoretical number that allows you to train at a safe % ???


Max heart rate is the highest heart rate you can physically acheive.
A helmet saved my life
User avatar
mikesbytes
Super Mod
Super Mod
 
Posts: 14925
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2005 10:42 pm
Location: Tempe, Sydney

Postby CoffeeNut » Thu Aug 16, 2007 10:06 pm

thanks Mike.
Under what circumstances/regime is it typically achieved in order to tesk/know this for an individual?
CoffeeNut
 
Posts: 233
Joined: Thu Aug 02, 2007 11:43 pm
Location: Toowoomba

Postby mikesbytes » Thu Aug 16, 2007 10:24 pm

CoffeeNut wrote:thanks Mike.
Under what circumstances/regime is it typically achieved in order to tesk/know this for an individual?


I'll let toolonglegs answer that one :D
A helmet saved my life
User avatar
mikesbytes
Super Mod
Super Mod
 
Posts: 14925
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2005 10:42 pm
Location: Tempe, Sydney

Postby toolonglegs » Thu Aug 16, 2007 10:34 pm

Typically you do a max test in a lab....pretty much a ergo trainer which you ramp up your effort till you blow.The advantage of these is that they do your lactate levels at the same time by taking a small drop of blood at intervals to check your lactate levels ...but obviously this is not for everyone.You can find your limit on your own...like I say I have hit mine in sprints which is a sustained 100% effort.Do you have a sprint in your bunch rides?.Otherwise do your own test,on a day when you are feeling fresh,possibly on your second day of a training block (where you have ridden a good effort the day before but not exhausted yourself).Find a road with a gentle rise that is not too steep,has a good run into it.Do a good warm up for 20-30mins...then start ramping up your effort from about 5 kms out so that you are at about 90% max heart rate when you hit the bottom of the climb and hit the climb at absolute maximum effort and go as hard as you can till you blow.The climb has to be steep enough to give you enough resistance,but so that you can keep a high cadence/momemtum.Pretty much just a 400 meter rise.
Well there are more scientific ways but that is how I do it :wink:
User avatar
toolonglegs
 
Posts: 14595
Joined: Fri Jun 29, 2007 7:49 pm
Location: Somewhere with padded walls and really big hills!

Postby CoffeeNut » Fri Aug 17, 2007 7:25 am

thanks - I know just the place then.
Can you draw any personal conclusions from the result that you get ?
Ie. is high vs age based value good/bad?
CoffeeNut
 
Posts: 233
Joined: Thu Aug 02, 2007 11:43 pm
Location: Toowoomba

Postby toolonglegs » Fri Aug 17, 2007 8:32 am

CoffeeNut wrote:thanks - I know just the place then.
Can you draw any personal conclusions from the result that you get ?
Ie. is high vs age based value good/bad?


Not really...it is more about finding your training zones,once you know your maximum you can work out your %'s better.The next most important value to work out your lactate threshold.Some people have high reving hearts,some have diesels :wink:
User avatar
toolonglegs
 
Posts: 14595
Joined: Fri Jun 29, 2007 7:49 pm
Location: Somewhere with padded walls and really big hills!

Postby CoffeeNut » Fri Aug 17, 2007 9:38 am

I suspect I have a diesel - my resting pulse is usually low and my blood pressure is low.

My max rate found thus far is 97% of the age based value - and when I think of it - I'm not sure I'm gunna push myself harder than on that recent ride. I should probably re-baseline that 97% to 100% then?
CoffeeNut
 
Posts: 233
Joined: Thu Aug 02, 2007 11:43 pm
Location: Toowoomba

Postby europa » Fri Aug 17, 2007 10:08 am

Forget the age based formula, it's rubbish. Don't even think about it. With me, the formula gives 170 yet it's actually about 187. You've got a HR monitor, start thinking about the maximums you see there and once you feel strong enough, find a decent hill and find out where you peak. I've maintained that 187 for over 5 mins up Flagstaff Hill. In colloquial terms, it damned near killed me (in medical terms it obviously didn't because my heart happily belted along at that rate), but more importantly, it hurt like blazes and the rate didn't want to go any higher, a fair enough definition of max. A proper stress test might push it a few beats higher, but you don't want to go collapsing on the side of the road - it upsets the locals.

Forget about the zones until you've got a good idea of your max. Getting the max out by 10 beats will stuff up the edges of the zones. While that isn't overly important, it is important to know where you are going from aerobic to anearobic, and how you'll recover from wherever you are. The zones give you an idea of where that'll occur, you work the rest out from observation.

For example, with that max of 187, I can work at 150 for long periods without bonking or lactic build ups. At about 155, for hard efforts (eg standing to sprint a hill), I'll start to feel that burn in the legs and it's noticeable if I do, that my HR takes a while to drop back - that's the old body cleaning out the system. On big hills, I can work for some distance at 165+ and recover while still on the climb with a backing off of the effort (a change in gear or a slackening of the rise), but I couldn't do that for hours because I'm well into that anaerobic zone. At 175, I can still recover on the climb but need a decent flat spot to do so (so if the hill's still going up steeply, that's the time to stop because the HR is just going to keep climbing if I don't).

I can ride all day under 150 but know I've been working.
I can ride all day under 140 and not feel too bad.
I can't ride all day under 130 because after awhile, it gets boring and I want to push on a bit :D but it works as a 'sort of' recovery ride.
A true recovery ride of under 120 does wonders for the legs after a monster effort the day before.

Those numbers are based on my observations of my body aided by the zones. They've been rounded to make it easier for this bear's tiny brain to grasp, but they work. As I normally ride on my own, I have nothing to prove to the bunch around me, and so can work at whatever rate I choose and that rate is usually a balance between my mental state, my physical state and the distance left to get home. By having a feel for this stuff though, I can manage my work rate to either achieve training goals or to recover on the ride. To be honest, I feel this latter is the more important of the two when putting in long distances. You will be stuffed after belting up a series of steep hills, but by knowing how to recover on the bike, you'll still be able to do the next 80km and still have the energy to climb that mountain at the end (as someone who's long rides always end with Flagstaff Hill, I appreciate that last bit).

The HR monitor is a tool. It's like the gear change lever, you can ignore it (like riding a single speed), or you can use it. Once it starts to control you, leave the chest strap at home occasionally :shock:

Richard
who might even have answered your question in there somewhere :roll:
I had a good bike ... so I fixed it
User avatar
europa
 
Posts: 7327
Joined: Sun Jul 16, 2006 10:51 am
Location: southern end of Adelaide - home of hills, fixies and drop bears

Postby MichaelB » Fri Aug 17, 2007 10:21 am

europa wrote:long periods without bonking or lactic build ups.


For one without a HR, can someone please define the sensation of "bonking" as well as "Lactic threshold"

Heard about them lots, and can find a def'n, but as Monty Python put it

"Wots it like ?"
User avatar
MichaelB
 
Posts: 6837
Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2007 8:29 am
Location: Adelaide, South Australia

Postby sogood » Fri Aug 17, 2007 10:22 am

OMGosh, Richard is riding by numbers again!!! :shock:
Bianchi, Ridley, Montague, GT, Garmin and All things Apple :)
RK wrote:And that is Wikipedia - I can write my own definition.
User avatar
sogood
 
Posts: 17082
Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2006 7:31 am
Location: Sydney AU

Postby europa » Fri Aug 17, 2007 10:48 am

MichaelB wrote:
europa wrote:long periods without bonking or lactic build ups.


For one without a HR, can someone please define the sensation of "bonking" as well as "Lactic threshold"

Heard about them lots, and can find a def'n, but as Monty Python put it

"Wots it like ?"


bonking means you're absolutely, utterly stuuuuffffffeeeeedddd. Technically, you've burned up all your glycogen and your body is madly stealling energy from wherever it can get it. It's one of those things you'll wonder about until it happens, then you'll know. It feels like you're moving in slow motion ... which you are :shock:

Lactic Threshold is where lactic acid is formed in the muscles. Or is it where it's no longer flushed out? Stuffit, I'll leave that one to someone who knows what he's talking about.

Richard
**pokes tongue out at sogood**
I had a good bike ... so I fixed it
User avatar
europa
 
Posts: 7327
Joined: Sun Jul 16, 2006 10:51 am
Location: southern end of Adelaide - home of hills, fixies and drop bears

Postby sogood » Fri Aug 17, 2007 10:56 am

MichaelB wrote:For one without a HR, can someone please define the sensation of "bonking" as well as "Lactic threshold"

Heard about them lots, and can find a def'n, but as Monty Python put it

"Wots it like ?"

You don't need a HRM to get those sensations.

Try doing a hard 100km ride without eating prior and during the ride. You'll bonk somewhere in the later part. It's a situation where your legs just would no longer turn at your command, and your leg power drops to a fraction of what you'd expect normally.

Lactic threshold is easy. Just do a stand up climb of a hill and continue until your legs are burning to the point of unable to move further. Welcome to your threshold.
Bianchi, Ridley, Montague, GT, Garmin and All things Apple :)
RK wrote:And that is Wikipedia - I can write my own definition.
User avatar
sogood
 
Posts: 17082
Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2006 7:31 am
Location: Sydney AU

Next

Return to Road Biking

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Jimbojones


PM Issues
Known Bug - error message displayed when sending PM's caused by tapatalk. Read more


Popular Bike Shops
Wiggle Wiggle UK
Ground Effect Ground Effect NZ
Ebay Ebay AU
Chain Reaction Cycles CRC UK

“Bicycles BNA Twitter
“Bicycles BNA Facebook
“Google+ BNA Google+
“Bicycles BNA Newsletter

> FREE BNA Stickers
> BNA Cycling Kit