Joondalup accepts tender upgrade to West Coast Drive path

Re: Joondalup accepts tender upgrade to West Coast Drive path

Postby rolandp » Tue Oct 20, 2009 12:51 am

The 'Stirling Gate' that will be installed at Trigg is underway and should be completed within a week. This does allow for an unimpeded 900mm gap and should be far less restrictive that any other form of gate or chicane and has been field tested. It is intended to provide compliance and enforcement of two elements: Firstly, the legal requirement for single file and secondly slowing down (on entry to an area of major conflict already covered by a 10kph speed limit in the Citys Local Laws).
I am also unaware of the 10kph speed limit in this area. It is not signed posted and I couldn't find a reference to this speed either on the City of Stirling website. If you aren't provided with this information, how do you know there is a speed limit?

I also looked at CycleWest bike maps and did notice that this area is not recorded on their maps as a dual-use path, though again, there is no sign posts in the area to indicate that this section is not a shared path. Below is a screen shot of the bike map, and included the current development occuring in this area. There are multiple circles drawn on the path, which potentially indicates that the 'gates' will intersect the path, forcing users to walk around them.
Image

curb is a mother of a solid curb
Below is also a shot of the solid curb indicated earlier which I leaned my bike up against to get this shot. The pedal is at the lowest position, and there was still a couple of inches above the pedal of the curb.

Image
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by BNA » Tue Oct 20, 2009 1:01 am

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Re: Joondalup accepts tender upgrade to West Coast Drive path

Postby Aushiker » Tue Oct 20, 2009 1:01 am

rolandp wrote:I am also unaware of the 10kph speed limit in this area. It is not signed posted and I couldn't find a reference to this speed either on the City of Stirling website.


Hi

I have requested a copy of the by-laws referred to, assuming of course that they actually exisit.

Andrew
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Re: Joondalup accepts tender upgrade to West Coast Drive path

Postby citywomble » Tue Oct 20, 2009 12:33 pm

Hi All,

Just a few facts to help clarify any confusion over what the City of Stirling is attempting to do in this area.

The section of Shared Path that traverses the Trigg Island Surf Life Saving Club runs out of the road reserve (Covered by the Road traffic Code 2000) and through an area covered by the Citys' Local Government Property Local Law. A copy of that Local law can be found on the City's' Website here:

http://www.stirling.wa.gov.au/NR/rdonlyres/B471D5D6-A0E6-436E-ADA3-EE7FAFB06C45/0/LocalGovernmentPropertyLocalLaw2009.pdf

In the definitions, in common with the RTC 2000, a bicycle is included in the definition of a vehicle. Please note that riding a bicycle is only permitted on a road or path (not grassed areas) and that all vehicles are subject to a 10kph speed limit (Schedule 2 - Determinations, Part 2 -Applications, Section 2.2 (2)).

Currently there are no marked speed limits for these areas installed but, following a request from the Ward Councillor and the manager of the SLSC, the issue of reckless speeding in this area is now being addressed by signage and minimal 'compliance' measures. The compliance 'gate' is not a phisical gate but an unobstructed opening 900mm wide that is intended, in conjunction with bollards and road markings (yes a path is classified as a road surface), to ensure that cyclists enter single file and slow down and will include appropriate 'in your face' regulatory signage at that point. Unlike rails and hoops it will not impede pedestrians or make them converge into the cyclists path. The City is committed to improving the environment for cyclists and that will include some measures to address safety and encourage better cycling (targeted at a small minority who give all others a bad name).

The 'slow' section is only 220m long which should be traversed at 10kph. For those cyclists that are not willing to accept that time penalty there is of course the adjacent road layout. In fact, any cyclist seeking to exceed 20-25 kph on any shared path (in particular the high use coastal Recreational Shared Path (RSP)) should really seek to find an alternative route (such as the adjacent West Coast Drive) which is quite suitable for speeds of 30kph and more.

The 'water filled traffic barrier' is not placed by the City but is put out by the SLSC in an attempt to slow down some very fast reckless cyclists who are conflicting with the legitimate club users which include groups of children and equipment.

Expect to see some other treatment plans installed over the next 12 months, in response to the recent facility audit conducted along the RSP, to make high conflict and risky beach access points safer. These will not be prohibitive but will encourage safer cycling at these locations.

Jon
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Re: Joondalup accepts tender upgrade to West Coast Drive path

Postby shorty07 » Thu Oct 22, 2009 7:35 am

citywomble wrote:In fact, any cyclist seeking to exceed 20-25 kph on any shared path (in particular the high use coastal Recreational Shared Path (RSP)) should really seek to find an alternative route (such as the adjacent West Coast Drive) which is quite suitable for speeds of 30kph and more.


These gates won't affect me, as I'm a regular on the West Coast Drive. What bemuses me though is everytime I take the main road I risk being taken out by hundreds of day-dreaming drivers opening their car doors on me as I pass by on this narrow strip of road built (and not modified) with no thought to cyclists. The road is barley wide enough in some sections to allow a car to speed past a cyclist at 80km/hr in the 50 zone - much less worrying about having room to contend with 'door-openers'.

If some of our best-and-brightest in Council-land had as much concern for the safety of cyclists doing battle with trucks, cars, boat/tradesmen trailers and the like on West Coast Drive as they did for pedestrians meandering all over the path, three abreast, pushing prams with 2 dogs and 3 kids running ahead un-checked on their scooters - the world would be a happier and dare I say, safer place.
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Re: Joondalup accepts tender upgrade to West Coast Drive path

Postby redned » Thu Oct 22, 2009 1:37 pm

I "Google Map"ed this area and there already is a path (presumably a footpath) that diverts from the change rooms at the northern end, along Trigg Place and along West Coast Drive as far as the car park behind the surf club. There is a section of about 50m along Trigg Place that is incomplete.

My estimate 550m from the northern changrooms to the roundabout at the southern end of the car park. A small investment ($95 per linear metre? = $52,250) to make this a cycle path (or dual use path) would have complete traffic separation along the Trigg foreshore which is the best solution. I am sure that the Ward Councillor and the SLSC will agree.
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Re: Joondalup accepts tender upgrade to West Coast Drive path

Postby pickle » Thu Oct 22, 2009 3:02 pm

redned wrote:I "Google Map"ed this area and there already is a path (presumably a footpath) that diverts from the change rooms at the northern end, along Trigg Place and along West Coast Drive as far as the car park behind the surf club. There is a section of about 50m along Trigg Place that is incomplete.

My estimate 550m from the northern changrooms to the roundabout at the southern end of the car park. A small investment ($95 per linear metre? = $52,250) to make this a cycle path (or dual use path) would have complete traffic separation along the Trigg foreshore which is the best solution. I am sure that the Ward Councillor and the SLSC will agree.


Sounds like a good idea. Can we submit that as a proposal or something along those lines? I have no idea how one would go about it.
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Re: Joondalup accepts tender upgrade to West Coast Drive path

Postby redned » Thu Oct 22, 2009 4:21 pm

Might be one of the 16 mystery projects for $2.8M in rolandp's other post.

Wouldn't that be a happy coincidence.
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Re: Joondalup accepts tender upgrade to West Coast Drive path

Postby rolandp » Fri Oct 23, 2009 12:23 am

redned wrote:Might be one of the 16 mystery projects for $2.8M in rolandp's other post.

Nope, Stirling was not listed in any of the projects.

citywomble AKA Special Projects Support Engineer COS wrote:In the definitions, in common with the RTC 2000, a bicycle is included in the definition of a vehicle. Please note that riding a bicycle is only permitted on a road or path (not grassed areas) and that all vehicles are subject to a 10kph speed limit (Schedule 2 - Determinations, Part 2 -Applications, Section 2.2 (2)).

This part concerns me, and if I'm reading it correctly, every CoS property has the 10kph speed limit. The parcel of land which the Trigg SLSC is lot no. 10003, which streatches around 1.5km and as far as I can tell, is CoS property. Lot 10541 (Scarborough Beach Reserve) just south of lot 10003, is around 2km long, which again as far as I can tell, is CoS property.

Other examples are the PSP which runs next to the City of Stirling offices, as far as a I can make out from CoS StirlingMaps Lot 15259 (2 Punccini Reserve) and Lot 802 (21 Cedric St) are CoS property have the 10kph speed limit.

It would make no difference where the PSP was routed around, if I’m reading this local act correctly, the PSP would be subject to 10kph speed limit.

As there is currently no signage in the area also concerns me. As shown on the BikeWest map which I posted above, the PSP does not continue through this area. There should therefore be end of path markers as required by Road Traffic Code 2000. It is not cyclist who are reckless in this area, as there are no markings. The markings in this area are the responsibility of the City of Stirling.

The issue of 10kph needs to be clarified, as potentially I am breaking the local act when I use a PSP which is located on land owned by CoS. This occurs at several locations on my daily commute from Duncraig to Perth.
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Re: Joondalup accepts tender upgrade to West Coast Drive path

Postby Aushiker » Fri Oct 23, 2009 1:46 am

rolandp wrote:This part concerns me, and if I'm reading it correctly, every CoS property has the 10kph speed limit.


Hi

I agree. It also raises interesting questions about the City of Stirling's own offices and related car-park on Civic Drive. Does the Council enforce its own rules and impose a 10 km/h speed limit (very slow driving in a vehicle) here to protect pedestrians and cyclists from motorised vehicle drivers? Riding pass tonight I didn't see any signage to this effect, but maybe I missed it.

I am also curious CityWomble, do you drive at 10 km/h on all City land? Do the Councillors' obey their own by-laws? Do staff? Do the Ranger's enforce the speed limit in the car park? From what I have seen riding through there and nearly been cleaned up on the road by a driver exiting the City's carpark the speed limit does not appear to be enforced at all.

The above notwithstanding, I have no problems with the restrictions being imposed in front of the Surf Club now that I understand what is being put in place and where it is, however, I have serious issues with what appears to be on the face of it, a hypocritical approach by the City of Stirling as expressed here and in private in the application of this 10 km/h speed limit. I really do hope I am wrong and evidence can be provided to show that the Council actually applies and enforces its own by-laws on in its own "backyard" so to speak.

I also agree that far smarter alignment would be a better solution at the Surf Club. Maybe that will occur in the short to medium term.

Regards
Andrew
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Re: Joondalup accepts tender upgrade to West Coast Drive path

Postby Thoglette » Fri Oct 23, 2009 11:42 am

Aushiker wrote:....however, I have serious issues with what appears to be on the face of it, a hypocritical approach by the City of Stirling as expressed here and in private in the application of this 10 km/h speed limit. I really do hope I am wrong and evidence can be provided to show that the Council actually applies and enforces its own by-laws on in its own "backyard" so to speak


Having spent a little time looking at unenforced laws I don't expect the CoS to be any different from any other council or the Police.

Fer example, one of the reasons that the skyshow became an issue was that the Police were not enforcing the liquor laws - strictly speaking, if you want to have a glass of wine at a picnic in a public place you need a liquor licence for that event. And you need to conform with the terms of that license (which generally includes excluding the public and underage invitees.)

In this case the Police (and council rangers, who have an interest when it is on council property) generally turn a blind eye. Because, in this case, the law is an ass. (And there's little political mileage in cleaning up or deleting stupid laws/regulation.)

I have a problem with laws that are generally ignored because they can be the subject of a "crackdown" when there's political milage to be made.

Thog.
ps - How many people on this forum have compliant reflectors on their pedals and wheels on all of their bikes? I thought so!
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Re: Joondalup accepts tender upgrade to West Coast Drive path

Postby rolandp » Sat Oct 24, 2009 1:03 am

The Stirling gates are almost complete. Shots taken tonight whilst riding north. First shot of the southern gate which looks complete, second shot of the northern gate which is not complete.
Image Image
The wording on the post was something like "FASTER CYCLIST USE ROADS".

Just south of here there was a family of 5, two adults, one child aged around 6, the other child around 8, one in the trailer. I hanged back with this family as there was too much traffic at that time. They were going 16kph (kid aged 6), so hope the Council traffic monitors were out in force to book the 6 year old and family for exceeding the limit, though with the trailer, good luck getting that through this gab, and they would have to continue their journey on the road.

As there is no End Area Speed Limit sign (as per RTC 2000) at the northern end, then your journey north must continue to be at a maximum of 10kph, until you see another speed limit sign (none seen for rest of journey whilst on the dual-use path).

The City of Joondalup’s Local Government and Public Property Local Law 1999 does not have a maximum speed limit, so why does the CoS?

It’s not that I don’t agree with this area being slowed down, it is the lack of respect the CoS has for cyclist in not providing an alternative route which annoys me, and the unclear restriction this local act has on any dual-use path on CoS council property.
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Re: Joondalup accepts tender upgrade to West Coast Drive path

Postby gdl_gdl » Sun Oct 25, 2009 5:59 pm

The Stirling gates are almost complete. Shots taken tonight whilst riding north. First shot of the southern gate which looks complete, second shot of the northern gate which is not complete.

Passed through the gates this morning. Noticed a couple of police at the Trigg Surf club. I am sure they weren't at the club to monitor traffic but I made sure I wasn't in danger of exceeding the speed limit. There's too many people about on a Sunday anyway so common sense takes over in any case.

It was very windy (bordering on dangerous) this morning so I hit the new part of the path near Hillary's. It's a nice ride when it's quiet!

Cheers,

Gary
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Re: Joondalup accepts tender upgrade to West Coast Drive path

Postby Aushiker » Tue Oct 27, 2009 9:52 am

Hi

I am getting more confused over this 10 km/h speed limit referred to by Citywomble. In making this comment I am assuming that the City of Stirling carpark at the City's offices in Civic Drive is in fact on City land and hence I assume the 10 km/h speed limit applies as per the City's Local Law.

Assuming that it does apply, it seems very strange that 20 km/h warning signs are placed on the speed humps within the car park. Shouldn't users be restricting their speeds to 10 km/h? Am I missing something here?

Regards
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Re: Joondalup accepts tender upgrade to West Coast Drive path

Postby danny » Tue Oct 27, 2009 8:10 pm

After years of commuting along Marmion Ave/West Coast Hwy from Hillarys to Claremont I tried a run into work along the upgraded coast path this morning. Not many users at 6.15am and the ride very comfortable. However, the combination of a bike/pedestrian path with a couple of skateboard launch ramps/ski jumps in front of MACC is one innovation too many. Having these at the bottom of a nice descent adds a couple interesting new dimensions to my ride stats - flight time and cruising altitude. Who approves these wheel crunching designs? Also, is there anything in the local bye-laws that require me to file a flight plan with Joondalup council before my next ride? :D
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Re: Joondalup accepts tender upgrade to West Coast Drive path

Postby rolandp » Wed Oct 28, 2009 12:52 am

I agree with comments relating to the area around the angling club, there are several dips in this area. Nicely marked with 'give ways' for cyclist/peds, and 'keep this area free' for the cars.

Took a couple more shots this evening as there have been a couple of developments. Images below:
Image

Left image taken from PBN Bike Map (5th Edition 2003) which also shows that the area is not a PSP. So, since at least 2003, cyclist are not allowed to ride on this section based on the PBN Bike Map. Shame there hasn't been any signs in place for all these years, as personally if I knew that this was not a PBN, I would have not ridden here, and requested the PSP to be routed around the SLS facilities. However, now with CoS signs, does this make this area a shared path with constraint of 10kph?

The middle image is of the southern end of the Stirling Gate. Last Friday there were 4 orange posts, this evening - 1.

Right image was taken just before Sorrento Surf Club, on the Joondalup upgraded path. The 60kph sign has gone up in the last three working days, with the location being in the middle of the newly constructed right lane of the shared path. Maybe Joondalup has easier local laws which allows cyclist to travel at 60kph on shared paths (or maybe I shouldn't go there).
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Re: Joondalup accepts tender upgrade to West Coast Drive path

Postby Aushiker » Wed Oct 28, 2009 11:19 am

rolandp wrote: Maybe Joondalup has easier local laws which allows cyclist to travel at 60kph on shared paths (or maybe I shouldn't go there).


Maybe you shouldn't go there :)

Andrew
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Re: Joondalup accepts tender upgrade to West Coast Drive path

Postby rolandp » Sat Oct 31, 2009 12:09 am

It is the case of the moving speed limit sign, which was clocked travelling 60kmh North, resting around 10 meters away:
Image
Where the sign was originally, has been patched, though I would hesitate to include the word good in the sentence.

His two mates which were located in the middle road reserve and on the other side of the road, where also moved at the same time. Shame who ever initially installed the signs didn't locate them intelligently first time, but glad to see this was moved. Now could they move that bus sign as well?

The Stirling Gate at Trigg has lost all its orange friends. If you see them on your journey, please return to the City of Stirling. On a serious note, now that I'm aware that this was never meant to be a PSP (according to BikeWest maps), I'm now slowing down to the 10kph. I'm still confused over the 10kph rule on CoS land, and why we are allowed to ride here, even though BikeWest maps show that it is not a PSP. Could anyone clarify?
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Re: Joondalup accepts tender upgrade to West Coast Drive path

Postby rolandp » Tue Nov 24, 2009 12:56 am

Haven't ridden the coast route for at least a week (wet weather I general stick to the northern Freeway route), however, fine weather (sorry, not allowed to use the word FINE when describing weather now) today was too good a day not too.

The Stirling Gate at Trigg is now complete with orange bollards in place at both the northern (never had them), and southern (had them, lost them, back again) ends. With the bollards in place, it makes it very difficult to get through and you are slowed down (which is the purpose). Consider going alternative route if you have a child trailer, trike etc, as you won't fit through this area.
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Re: Joondalup accepts tender upgrade to West Coast Drive path

Postby gdl_gdl » Tue Nov 24, 2009 10:37 am

On a light hearted note, there's a fair amount of "raised" paint on the Give Way and cycle signs near the Marmion Aquatic club. I was having a drink when I rode over the cycling sign and nearly came off! :shock:

Cheers,

Gary
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Re: Joondalup accepts tender upgrade to West Coast Drive path

Postby CycleSnail » Tue Nov 24, 2009 10:23 pm

gdl_gdl wrote: I was having a drink when I rode over the cycling sign and nearly came off! :shock:

Gary

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