Is frame size really that critical?????
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Is frame size really that critical?????
Postby inaminit » Thu Aug 23, 2007 11:51 pm
After years of perfecting the art of being professional procrastinator, I finally dusted off the trusty old Giant Kronos and actually started riding again! And as I was many years ago, I am again hooked and have steadily built up to about 150Km per week and am even doing some training rides with some graded bunches.
I considered buying a new bike, and was looking around the $1500 mark, but have now decided to hold off and put up with the old steely for 12 months and reward myself with a much better bike.
Anyway, a mate of mine owns the LBS and he told me today he is selling one of his personal bikes. I had a very quick look at it today and from memory, it's a 56cm Trek 2300 with full 9spd ultegra groupset and is about 4-5 years old and is insanely light! He's asking $900 for it and to me it seems like a hell of a lot of bike for the money!
The only downside is it's 56cm. I'm about 184cm and the old Giant has a 60cm frame. I'me going for a test ride tomorrow (weather permitting) and he's going to change the stem to ensure I get a decent height and reach.
So after all that waffle, my question is, is there any real negative in terms of handling etc to having a frame thats a bit too small for me, even if he can get the the rest of the fit right and it feels comfortable to ride?
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Postby europa » Fri Aug 24, 2007 12:25 am
You can make a bike that's too small 'fit' by fitting longer seat posts, neck extensions and stem extensions. If you're really lucky, you will be able to get the seat back far enough with a standard offset seat post (I struggle here). But hey, it can all be done ... at a cost ... and it might even work even if you aren't offended by the look.
Example one:
Does that bike look 'right' to you? It fits ... now, and is loved no more now that it fits than before so. It's called the Sow's Ear and referred to as the 'horrible hybrid' for a reason - it's too small and doesn't really do the job despite the modifications. You can read her story here
Then there are those who will say 'that is extreme'. Well boyos, have a look at my much vaunted Black Beast ... in her current guise which almost works.
The astute observer will note the adjustable neck. The astute observer will not that said neck is set at it's extreme highest angle ... and probably will not immediately realise that this is the longest neck available, from anyone. Nor would the astute observer realise that the handlebars seen here are an aftermarket item that have a reach 3cm longer than the stock handlebars. This bike, in its original form, was set up by an experienced and very good bike fitter, but he made the mistake of applying 'racing' fittings to an old git - me. Sadly, I fell in with this and consequently, I now have a very expensive bike that doesn't fit but which has been forced to, after much expense and mucking about.
Now, case three.
Nothing remarkable her, just some old, overweight rider attempting to squash his ancient roadie. The point is, this old bike has always been comfortable under my bum. I foolishly thought it was oversized thanks to the height of the top bar, and allowed myself to buy the smaller framed Black Beast in the previous photo. In over twenty years, the ONLY modification to this bike has been in moving the stem upwards as my advancing years and loss of flexibility has dictated that bars nearer seat height are better than lower than the seat.
The Black Beast (piccy 2), professionally fitted and still loved for all her faults, has gone through three necks and a change of bars to make her work - she is about to face another set of modifications while in the background, I'm looking for a better frame, one that fits.
Bike fit is a chancy thing and, as a very experienced rider explained to me recently, a dynamic thing - it's changing all the time. This becomes more important as you get older (ie less flexible) and as you try to do more with your bike. The head down, bum up, aerodynamic pose is fine while you're physically capable of holding it and while you're willing to put up with the compromises. However, outside of that, it doesn't work. Then there is the upright stance. How hard can that be? Well, the Sow's Ear, the first piccy, fits me nicely now, but it's still a sod of a ride despite recently towing my daughter on her tag-along for nearly 15km recently.
Bike fit IS important. Get the right frame, and the rest falls into place ... eventually. Buying the wrong sized frame is just guaranteeing that you'll buy another frame down the track a bit. Modern sizing policies are based on racing thinking and nearly always result in a frame that's too small - this is fine if you like being in an extreme tuck. To go for a frame that is too small relative to modern thinking is begging for trouble and certainly will not provide you with a bike that you'll own for years.
Yes, you can fix almost any fit problem by bolting bits onto your bike, but the result will not be as good as getting the right sized frame in the first place.
Richard
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Re: Is frame size really that critical?????
Postby sogood » Fri Aug 24, 2007 6:48 am
It can certainly be done as many pro racers use smaller frames in order to get the drop they need to go aero. However, whether this style of fit works for you or not will depend on how your body adapts and application.inaminit wrote:The only downside is it's 56cm. I'm about 184cm and the old Giant has a 60cm frame. I'me going for a test ride tomorrow (weather permitting) and he's going to change the stem to ensure I get a decent height and reach.
Given that your mate is a LBS owner, I'd think that he would know what he is doing. Fitting longer seatpost and stem would certainly move you in the right direction. But as said, you will need to test ride it and see.
I suggest that you try one of the online fit calculator to give yourself an idea and then keep an open mind about the frame on offer at this point.
http://www.competitivecyclist.com/za/CC ... ATOR_INTRO
RK wrote:And that is Wikipedia - I can write my own definition.
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Postby toolonglegs » Fri Aug 24, 2007 7:29 am
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Postby sogood » Fri Aug 24, 2007 7:34 am
+1. I'd also say that a frame that is too large is more detrimental to a frame that is a tad small.toolonglegs wrote:I can't say for sure,but I would say a 60cm was a touch too big for you anyway...
Boonen rides a 13cm stem according to one recent CyclingNews article. So with 14cm stem, one must be better than him.
RK wrote:And that is Wikipedia - I can write my own definition.
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Postby mikesbytes » Fri Aug 24, 2007 8:20 am
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Postby inaminit » Fri Aug 24, 2007 9:36 am
I was planning a test ride today, but it's still raining, so hopefully it'll clear up a bit later.
I agree that the 60 is probably a bit big for me. I bought it at least 12 years ago, and it never felt "right" which is probably one of the reasons I didn't ride it for so long. The bike before that was a 58, but the shop I bought the 60 from said I should go a larger frame so I did. (Wish I had this forum back then!!!)
I'll let you know how I go with the test ride (if this weather ever breaks!)
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Postby sogood » Fri Aug 24, 2007 9:53 am
RK wrote:And that is Wikipedia - I can write my own definition.
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Postby tallywhacker » Fri Aug 24, 2007 10:31 am
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Postby timbo » Fri Aug 24, 2007 10:44 am
You could reasonably expect to go up or down one frame size no problems, but I would be hesitant to take it past that. The bike I tried to alter to suit me ended up being put back to how it was and sold and a new bike purchased which fitted properly. I have been happy ever since.
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Postby sogood » Fri Aug 24, 2007 11:13 am
I think the solution there is to run long seatposts with greater setback that moves you further back than normal, thereby compensating the weight shift of the longer stem. But I agree, it's not something that amateur would be comfortable with and certain some pro advice are needed.timbo wrote:The other problem with fitting the stem of the required length, was that there was so much body weight over the front wheel that bike handling became an issue and was at times unnerving on descents.
RK wrote:And that is Wikipedia - I can write my own definition.
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Postby inaminit » Fri Aug 24, 2007 2:36 pm
The owner who's an old mate of mine wheeled the bike over and said, "well, we can put a longer stem on and raise the seat, then all we need to do is remove a couple of vertebrae and shorten your legs and we should have a pretty good fit." We then had a good chat about what it is I really want.
Basically, I'm only looking for something lighter and better than I have now to get me through for the next 12 months at the most. By then I will know what I'm after in a bike. (i.e. will I be club racing, just enjoying social rides and long distance charity events, or road racing).
What he has suggested is a new Lemond etape. He's offered it to me for $750 (RRP $999). He said that in 12 months, providing I haven't totally abused the bike, I should still be able to get about $600 - $650 for resale.
The downside to the Lemond is it has a sora/tiagra mixed groupset and is only 8 speed, but considering I would need to spend about $500ish to upgrade the dodgy bits on the old Giant, & I'm looking at upgrading to the dream bike next year anyway, it's sounding like a pretty good interim option.
So all thats left is to go for a test ride and to see if anyone here has anything negative to say about their experiences with the Lemond etape.
Thanks again to everyone, you really are a helpful and entertaining bunch!
Anthony.
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Postby Bnej » Fri Aug 24, 2007 2:42 pm
I've only seen one LeMond bike in person, which is a very nice carbon fibre bike. Since they are essentially fancy Trek bikes, I don't think you can go far wrong.
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Postby MichaelB » Fri Aug 24, 2007 4:50 pm
I bought my Tourmalet (last years model - 2006) for $1,350 instead of the $2,000 RRP. It has a full 105 Groupset and carbon fork & seatpost.
The quality is great, and since middle of March, have covered 2,740km on it with nary a problem.
The design is unique to LeMond (have a look at their website) but made by Trek.
What is really wrong with the Giant that you currently have ? Do you need to spend $500 on it, or will a bit of TLC and Lube do ? As Mount Gower said, save the money and buy something that you want. You'll lose more than a few hundred in 12 months.
BTW, I am 184cm and the LeMond is a 55cm Frame, and if any thing, it is on the smaller side, but I don't have an issue with it. But being the only decent bike I have owned, can't compare it with anything else.
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Postby MichaelB » Fri Aug 24, 2007 5:03 pm
Here is the LeMond Frame Geometry for my bikeMountGower wrote:MichaelB
Just getting back to the original question, I am 177cm and bought my 56cm bike because I am sick of a 55cm bike. You are so much taller than I am. It's amazing how personal size is. My main problem is not with the 55cm top tube, although I much prefer the 56, it's with the 53cm seat tube. Unfortunately 1998 was the year Giant thought we'd all like to do hand stands as we rode along. Maybe your seat tube is 55cm aswell? This would make a 55 more acceptable to ride. It's a mine field out there.
LeMond Tourmalet Frame Geo
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Postby Zujan » Fri Aug 24, 2007 8:50 pm
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Postby CB » Sat Aug 25, 2007 7:33 pm
my dream bikeZujan wrote:I want SLC-SL
cervélo/CSC seem to absolutely smashing it on the protour. must do absolute wonders for bike sales. when i see videos of o'grady, cancellara, voigt, and sastre saying "this is by far the best bike I have ever had" it really makes me want one haha.
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