victorian road rules - bike lane

victorian road rules - bike lane

Postby sn00py » Wed Dec 23, 2009 12:15 pm

hi, does anyone know the road rules in vic by law if:

cycling in a bike lane, car ahead turns left into side road across bike lane. Who gives way in this situation?

thanks
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by BNA » Wed Dec 23, 2009 12:18 pm

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Re: victorian road rules - bike lane

Postby Missy24 » Wed Dec 23, 2009 12:18 pm

The person turning must always give way
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Re: victorian road rules - bike lane

Postby sn00py » Wed Dec 23, 2009 12:32 pm

thats what i thought

i cycled past a turning car who waited for me

after which an RACV driving instructor shouted thru his car window at me that i should wait for the turning car to go across bike lane.

i had the discussion with him at the next lights which left me confused as he's a driving instructor!

thanks
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Re: victorian road rules - bike lane

Postby Missy24 » Wed Dec 23, 2009 12:36 pm

Its just like if you where travelling on a highway.

Two lanes... two cars, one in each lane... both going in the same direction, then the ****** beside you decided that he/she wants to be in your lane and merges without even looking, indicating to give prior warning.. the ****** hits you and then complains...

Mmmm interesting... I'm learning to drive at the moment and my driving instructor said I have to wait, so I wait! If there is time for the car to go then that's great, if not its also just like when the pedestrian is crossing... you have to wait! Its the law!

If you got his licence plate and your feeling like getting even... give the driving school a call. Or even just call them in general and say, I'm aware that this isn't the law so could you please send out a note to all your instructors.
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Re: victorian road rules - bike lane

Postby sn00py » Wed Dec 23, 2009 12:57 pm

i didn't get his number, its too much bother right now... i'm not angry enough about it to bother

i guess you just have to be wary of cars that do think they have right of way or don't look before they go across the bike lane.

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Re: victorian road rules - bike lane

Postby KenGS » Wed Dec 23, 2009 1:16 pm

PART 4—MAKING TURNS
Division 1—Left turns at intersections
<snip>
27 Starting a left turn from a road (except a multi-lane
road)
(1) A driver turning left at an intersection from a road
(except a multi-lane road) must approach and
enter the intersection from as near as practicable
to the far left side of the road.

PART 11—KEEPING LEFT, OVERTAKING AND OTHER
DRIVING RULES
<snip>
Division 4—Driving in marked lanes or lines of traffic
<snip>
147 Moving from one marked lane to another marked
lane across a continuous line separating the lanes
A driver on a multi-lane road must not move from
one marked lane to another marked lane by
crossing a continuous line separating the lanes
unless—
(a) the driver is avoiding an obstruction; or
(b) the driver is obeying a traffic control device
applying to the first marked lane; or
(c) the driver is permitted to drive in both
marked lanes under another provision of
these Rules; or
(d) either of the marked lanes is a special
purpose lane in which the driver is permitted
to drive under these Rules and the driver is
moving to or from the special purpose lane.
<snip>
148 Giving way when moving from one marked lane or
line of traffic to another marked lane or line of
traffic
(1) A driver who is moving from one marked lane
(whether or not the lane is ending) to another
marked lane must give way to any vehicle
travelling in the same direction as the driver in the
marked lane to which the driver is moving.
<snip>
Division 6—Driving in marked lanes designated for special
purposes
153 Bicycle lanes
(1) A driver (except the rider of a bicycle) must not
drive in a bicycle lane, unless the driver is
permitted to drive in the bicycle lane under this
rule or rule 158.
<snip>
158 Exceptions to driving in special purpose lanes etc.
(1) The driver of any vehicle may drive for up to the
permitted distance in a bicycle lane, bus lane, tram
lane, transit lane or truck lane if it is necessary for
the driver to drive in the lane—
(a) to enter or leave the road; or
(b) to enter a part of the road of one kind from a
part of the road of another kind (for example,
moving to or from a service road, the
shoulder of the road or an emergency
stopping lane); or
(c) to overtake a vehicle that is turning right, or
making a U-turn from the centre of the road,
and is giving a right change of direction
signal; or
(d) to enter a marked lane, or part of the road
where there is room for a line of traffic
(other than motor bikes, bicycles, motorised
wheelchairs or animals), from the side of the
road.
<snip>
(4) In this rule—
permitted distance means—
(a) for a bicycle lane or tram lane—
50 metres; or
(b) for any other lane—100 metres.

So in summary:
Left turning vehicle must be as far to the left as possible. In this case this means in the bike lane which they can enter up to 50m from the turn. But in moving into the bike lane they must give way to anyone in that lane.
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Re: victorian road rules - bike lane

Postby TheSkyMovesSideways » Wed Dec 23, 2009 2:01 pm

sn00py wrote:after which an RACV driving instructor shouted thru his car window at me that i should wait for the turning car to go across bike lane.

You're not allowed to try to overtake on the left of a left turning vehicle, which may be what he was referring to. I think basically if they're ahead of you and have stopped/slowed and are turning or about to turn, you're not allowed to go passed them on the left, but if they're coming up behind or beside you, they can't just turn left through you.
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Re: victorian road rules - bike lane

Postby sn00py » Wed Dec 23, 2009 3:13 pm

hmmm, maybe i was obliged to wait for the car turning left, although they did indicate late and wait for me to pass.

its a bit of a grey area once you're on the road.

thanks for your posts!
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Re: victorian road rules - bike lane

Postby twizzle » Wed Dec 23, 2009 3:41 pm

TheSkyMovesSideways wrote:
sn00py wrote:after which an RACV driving instructor shouted thru his car window at me that i should wait for the turning car to go across bike lane.

You're not allowed to try to overtake on the left of a left turning vehicle, which may be what he was referring to. I think basically if they're ahead of you and have stopped/slowed and are turning or about to turn, you're not allowed to go passed them on the left, but if they're coming up behind or beside you, they can't just turn left through you.


:?: Says who? A car crossing a solid white line has to give way to all other traffic, and a bicycle is allowed to overtake on the left. And even if the bicycles didn't have the 'overtake on the left exception', the cycle lane makes it a multi-lane road and passing on the left becomes legal.
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Re: victorian road rules - bike lane

Postby m@ » Wed Dec 23, 2009 4:06 pm

I'm pretty sure there are specific laws covering this situation - in Tas at least tho I believe Vic is essentially the same both having adopted the national road rules. IIRC, a bike lane doesn't count as a normal traffic lane per se and essentially whoever is in front has right-of-way. Something along the lines of it being illegal to overtake a vehicle on the left that is both turning and indicating left...

Happy to be corrected as I don't have time to look up the road rules - but that's what I took from it the last time I looked it up.
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Re: victorian road rules - bike lane

Postby TheSkyMovesSideways » Wed Dec 23, 2009 4:38 pm

twizzle wrote: :?: Says who?

Road Safety Road Rules 2009, Part 11 (Keeping Left, Overtaking and other Driving Rules), Division 3 (Overtaking):

141 No overtaking etc. to the left of a vehicle

(1) A driver (except the rider of a bicycle) must not overtake a
vehicle to the left of the vehicle unless-

(a) the driver is driving on a multi-lane road and the vehicle can
be safely overtaken in a marked lane to the left of the
vehicle; or

(b) the vehicle is turning right, or making a U-turn from the
centre of the road, and is giving a right change of direction
signal; or

(c) the vehicle is stationary and it is safe to overtake to the
left of the vehicle.

P 5 penalty units.

Note
Bicycle, centre of the road, marked lane, multi-lane road,
overtake, right change of direction signal and U-turn are defined
in the dictionary.

(2) The rider of a bicycle must not ride past, or overtake, to the
left of a vehicle that is turning left and is giving a left
change of direction signal.

P 3 penalty units.


Note
Left change of direction signal is defined in the dictionary.
r. 141
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Re: victorian road rules - bike lane

Postby twizzle » Wed Dec 23, 2009 7:18 pm

TheSkyMovesSideways wrote:
twizzle wrote: :?: Says who?

Road Safety Road Rules 2009, Part 11 (Keeping Left, Overtaking and other Driving Rules), Division 3 (Overtaking):
...


Yep, found that about five minutes after my post, added an 'Edit:' saying 'oops, I'll shut my mouth'... quoted the law, but then raised the q of how it applied to cycle lanes... but the edit has disappeared.

The forum seems to be a bit flaky at the moment. :evil:
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Re: victorian road rules - bike lane

Postby TheSkyMovesSideways » Wed Dec 23, 2009 7:59 pm

I think realistically, if a car is turning left through a bike lane ahead of you, they're usually going to move into the bike lane and then turn, so you'd hardly have any room to go to the left of them anyway. The one you need to watch out for is a car slowing and indicating left ahead of you, which hasn't moved into the bike lane yet, because they're probably about to go straight across it.

Since the penalty for breaking this law could easily read "3 penalty units, if you survive it", I'm pretty well inclined to obey it. :lol: That said, there is one ambiguous case where a car is stopped at a red light and is indicating left. I think you're allowed to pass there, as they're not actually turning, just indicating that they will turn. In that case I usually make sure the light's not about to change before passing them and stopping in front of them, a bit to the right of their car if possible.
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Re: victorian road rules - bike lane

Postby KenGS » Wed Dec 23, 2009 8:07 pm

TheSkyMovesSideways wrote:I think realistically, if a car is turning left through a bike lane ahead of you, they're usually going to move into the bike lane and then turn, so you'd hardly have any room to go to the left of them anyway. The one you need to watch out for is a car slowing and indicating left ahead of you, which hasn't moved into the bike lane yet, because they're probably about to go straight across it.

Which is why I quoted Rule 27:
A driver turning left at an intersection from a road (except a multi-lane road) must approach and enter the intersection from as near as practicable to the far left side of the road.
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Re: victorian road rules - bike lane

Postby jules21 » Thu Dec 24, 2009 9:15 am

m@ wrote:I'm pretty sure there are specific laws covering this situation - in Tas at least tho I believe Vic is essentially the same both having adopted the national road rules. IIRC, a bike lane doesn't count as a normal traffic lane per se and essentially whoever is in front has right-of-way. Something along the lines of it being illegal to overtake a vehicle on the left that is both turning and indicating left...

Happy to be corrected as I don't have time to look up the road rules - but that's what I took from it the last time I looked it up.


i'm pretty sure i've read the same thing. it doesn't permit drivers to come 'over the top' of cyclists when turning left, but if they are ahead they are entitled to turn and if that means a cyclist who approaches from behind must slow and allow them to complete their turn, so be it.
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Re: victorian road rules - bike lane

Postby sogood » Thu Dec 24, 2009 9:23 am

sn00py wrote:after which an RACV driving instructor shouted thru his car window at me that i should wait for the turning car to go across bike lane.

That's a REAL WORRY!

But was the bike lane on the road? Or a divided one? Was there traffic light control at that intersection? Any other signs at the location?
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Re: victorian road rules - bike lane

Postby velocopedant » Thu Dec 24, 2009 11:30 am

I had to take a few driving lessons before taking my driving test in Germany, (long story), and the procedure they insist on there is that you quickly glance over your right shoulder before you turn right in case a bicycle or motorbike is travelling in your mirror's blind spot. I wish that all drivers had German driver's ed.
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Re: victorian road rules - bike lane

Postby twizzle » Thu Dec 24, 2009 1:02 pm

velocopedant wrote:I had to take a few driving lessons before taking my driving test in Germany, (long story), and the procedure they insist on there is that you quickly glance over your right shoulder before you turn right in case a bicycle or motorbike is travelling in your mirror's blind spot. I wish that all drivers had German driver's ed.


I just assume that the cars don't see me. I also assume that they don't know how to indicate or give way. I've only been caught out once, where a car in stopped traffic decided suddenly to turn into the driveway he was next to, even though the line of traffic had been stationary for some time. I managed to stop before I went into the side of the car... but I did slap the side of the car with my hand as I stopped, and the guy coming up behind me on the cycle lane took time out to yell abuse at the driver. Could have been nasty, I was travelling at about 35km/h when it happened.
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Re: victorian road rules - bike lane

Postby Mulger bill » Thu Dec 24, 2009 3:45 pm

twizzle wrote:
velocopedant wrote:I had to take a few driving lessons before taking my driving test in Germany, (long story), and the procedure they insist on there is that you quickly glance over your right shoulder before you turn right in case a bicycle or motorbike is travelling in your mirror's blind spot. I wish that all drivers had German driver's ed.


I just assume that the cars don't see me. I also assume that they don't know how to indicate or give way. I've only been caught out once, where a car in stopped traffic decided suddenly to turn into the driveway he was next to, even though the line of traffic had been stationary for some time. I managed to stop before I went into the side of the car... but I did slap the side of the car with my hand as I stopped, and the guy coming up behind me on the cycle lane took time out to yell abuse at the driver. Could have been nasty, I was travelling at about 35km/h when it happened.


Well put fellers. Me old man used to clip me ear if I didn't head check on me Ls.
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Re: victorian road rules - bike lane

Postby swon38 » Sun Oct 28, 2012 8:47 pm

So after reading this old thread, I am still confused.

If a bike is going straight (in a bicycle lane) and a car is wanting to turn left across the bike lane- what happens?

Are there any definitive laws, or is it merely a case of:
a) the car is sufficiently ahead to turn left and does so?
b) the bike is sufficiently ahead and is allowed to proceed forward whilst the car waits to turn left?

When driving in the car, I have had cases where I have wanted to turn left with a bicycle in close proximity behind travelling in a bicycle lane. In both cases, I stopped to let the bicycle rider go straight past before I turned left.
In one of these cases, the car behind me gave me a honk. In the second case, the car behind me stopped, but the car behind him rear-ended him.

I am interested as a beginner road cyclist and a motor vehicle driver. If someone could shed some light on the matter it would be appreciated.
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Re: victorian road rules - bike lane

Postby macca33 » Sun Oct 28, 2012 9:28 pm

swon38 wrote:So after reading this old thread, I am still confused.

If a bike is going straight (in a bicycle lane) and a car is wanting to turn left across the bike lane- what happens?

Are there any definitive laws, or is it merely a case of:
a) the car is sufficiently ahead to turn left and does so?
b) the bike is sufficiently ahead and is allowed to proceed forward whilst the car waits to turn left?

When driving in the car, I have had cases where I have wanted to turn left with a bicycle in close proximity behind travelling in a bicycle lane. In both cases, I stopped to let the bicycle rider go straight past before I turned left.
In one of these cases, the car behind me gave me a honk. In the second case, the car behind me stopped, but the car behind him rear-ended him.

I am interested as a beginner road cyclist and a motor vehicle driver. If someone could shed some light on the matter it would be appreciated.




It is definitive - whomever is positioned behind the other must give way in these circumstances.

If the car is in front, then it is entitled to move into the bicycle lane (after Giving Way to the bicycle - and when it is within 50 metres of the intersection), in order to complete a turn and in this case, the cyclist must yield.

If the cyclist is abreast, or in front, the driver of the vehicle must yield and Give Way to the cyclist - slowing down and / or stopping as necessary.

Sometimes, unfortunately, it comes down to timing and I always try to err on the side of caution - as both driver and when cycling - in order not to bowl over, or be bowled over (as the case may be).

In Victoria - refer Road Rules (Vic) 1999 - s153 (bicycle lanes), s158 (exemptions to drive in bicycles lanes - 50 metre rule), s148 (Giving Way when merging / moving from one marked traffic lane / line of traffic to another - a Bicycle Lane is a designated 'Lane' under the Road Rules - see s153), s150 driving on / across a continuous white edge line.

swon38 - in your scenarios, you've acted reasonably and in the one case where a car collided into the rear of the one behind you - it is simple - that driver is at fault.

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Re: victorian road rules - bike lane

Postby il padrone » Sun Oct 28, 2012 10:25 pm

macca33 wrote:If the car is in front, then it is entitled to move into the bicycle lane (after Giving Way to the bicycle - and when it is within 50 metres of the intersection), in order to complete a turn and in this case, the cyclist must yield.

However if the driver of the car is ahead of the cyclist (just) but cannot change lanes and make the turn without conflicting with the cyclist (eg. forcing the cyclist to take urgent evasive action or collide with the car) then the driver must yield and give way - allow the cyclist to pass before changing lanes.

BTW, the road rules stipulate that drivers must make a left turn from as close to the left kerb as possible, so this immediately invalidates the left-hook approach.
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Re: victorian road rules - bike lane

Postby macca33 » Mon Oct 29, 2012 6:30 am

il padrone wrote:
macca33 wrote:If the car is in front, then it is entitled to move into the bicycle lane (after Giving Way to the bicycle - and when it is within 50 metres of the intersection), in order to complete a turn and in this case, the cyclist must yield.

However if the driver of the car is ahead of the cyclist (just) but cannot change lanes and make the turn without conflicting with the cyclist (eg. forcing the cyclist to take urgent evasive action or collide with the car) then the driver must yield and give way - allow the cyclist to pass before changing lanes.

BTW, the road rules stipulate that drivers must make a left turn from as close to the left kerb as possible, so this immediately invalidates the left-hook approach.



Agree - it falls under the rule for Giving Way when changing lanes.

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Re: victorian road rules - bike lane

Postby twizzle » Mon Oct 29, 2012 10:43 am

Guy at work came and asked me about this about a month back, he reckons he had heaps of time for his turn but the cyclist screamed abuse at him. From inside his luxo-barge landcruiser, I reckon the cyclist would have had to have been close to be heard.

My advice was : pretend the bicycle is a semi-trailer. If you don't have enough time to turn across the front of a semi safely, don't do it to a bicycle.
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Re: victorian road rules - bike lane

Postby swon38 » Fri Nov 09, 2012 5:33 pm

il padrone wrote:
macca33 wrote:If the car is in front, then it is entitled to move into the bicycle lane (after Giving Way to the bicycle - and when it is within 50 metres of the intersection), in order to complete a turn and in this case, the cyclist must yield.

However if the driver of the car is ahead of the cyclist (just) but cannot change lanes and make the turn without conflicting with the cyclist (eg. forcing the cyclist to take urgent evasive action or collide with the car) then the driver must yield and give way - allow the cyclist to pass before changing lanes.

BTW, the road rules stipulate that drivers must make a left turn from as close to the left kerb as possible, so this immediately invalidates the left-hook approach.


Cheers for the replies. As mentioned, a bit of common sense (in addition to the law) is required.

Unfortunately, car drivers who have never ridden a rode bike before are most likely unaware of how much braking distance a road bike requires.
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