Why ebikes are good / bad

Positive discussion on ebikes and pedal assist bicycles

Why ebikes are good / bad

Postby AUbicycles » Fri May 21, 2010 6:43 am

Electric bicycles is a controversial topic for some cyclists ... but the ebike market is growing internationally.

This is the first post.. and a sticky and is the section for dialogue for discussion the Pros and Cons.

Be friendly, be open and be positive.
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by BNA » Fri May 21, 2010 9:50 pm

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Re: Why ebikes are good / bad

Postby Joeblake » Fri May 21, 2010 9:50 pm

In 1962 I decided computers were going to be my future, so I took an apprenticeship as a "radio mechanic" in the Army. I bought my first computer in 1979, and since 1981, almost every cent I've earned has been from computers.

Because of my experience with electronics, I found it a fairly simple matter to cobble together my first electrike in about 2007, converting a 1991 Greenspeed GRT 20/26.

Using the experience gained I was able to get a second electrike built for me.

Again, my experience in electronics enabled me fit photovoltaic panels to each trike so they are both pretty well self-sufficient and literally cost nothing to run, other than tyres, chains and batteries every couple of years.

With the situation of the world oil supply running down, it is almost inevitable that in the not too distant future more and more cars are going to have at least some electro-propulsive capacity. My feeling is that in the (highly unlikely) event that I decide I need to buy a car, I'll have many decades of experience to fall back on in helping me make a choice of which car to buy and be able to maintain it, and save money, possibly amounting to thousands of dollars.

So I'd submit that getting an e-bike would give the rider a great deal of very valuable experience which would be transferrable to future cars.

It doesn't matter how much money you've got, it won't buy experience for you ... it can only hire somebody else's.

There are many other reasons for having an e-bike, but this one doesn't seem to get much of an airing, so I thought I'd stir the pot with it early on.

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Re: Why ebikes are good / bad

Postby rustguard » Fri May 21, 2010 10:00 pm

I think that an ebike has great application for commuting to work, it is a big thing for many people to cycle first thing in the morning and from my experience can be a tough slog home after a long day with overtime in manual employment. When I was working in sales; I always wanted to ride to work, but my presentation had to be immaculate. Not everyone has time and or facilities for showering and changing cloths. Hard to ride in a three piece suit also.
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Re: Why ebikes are good / bad

Postby KenGS » Fri May 21, 2010 10:34 pm

I don't have one but they have their place. I live at the top of a 8% climb and when I was thinking of riding to work I seriously thought about converting my old bike. But procrastination "saved" me and before long the climb was no big problem especially once I shed a few kg. But I'm lucky that my work has good shower facilities and a relaxed dress policy.
The things that made me hesitate on the ebike were the cost and the extra weight. If I run out of juice on the way home that 8% is a whole lot harder with 7kg or so of battery and motor as deadweight.
I'm still interested enough to keep an eye on the marketplace. Looking at what's needed to do the big grocery shop by bike - say a cargobike. And once again the\at last climb home is a major factor.
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Re: Why ebikes are good / bad

Postby rolandp » Fri May 21, 2010 11:36 pm

As I get older (hopefully still a long way off), I can see myself moving to an e-bike.
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Re: Why ebikes are good / bad

Postby ColinOldnCranky » Sat May 22, 2010 2:11 am

While I don'thve one myself, I think anything that substitutes for a car is fine.

Our travelsmart committee considered them as an adjunct to the vehicle fleet. Decided against it for the time being but will be intrested in developments.

In a way they are not much different in thinking to the 1960's step thr low powered motorbikes with pedal assist. Except the power is such that the feet have to the work by default instead of the motor.
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Re: Why ebikes are good / bad

Postby Joeblake » Sat May 22, 2010 2:20 am

How 'bout an electric unicycle? :lol: :lol:

http://www.gizmag.com/enicycle-electric-unicycle/12622/

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Only trouble is it's got 1000 watts of power. A bit too much.

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Re: Why ebikes are good / bad

Postby GraemeK » Sat May 22, 2010 11:05 am

Well I am glad to see the forum is up and running.
I personally thing e bikes are an interesting off shoot of the traditional bike community.
Given that I build bike frames both lugged and fillet bronze welded and that I ride my road bike every day I guess its possible that people might think I was predisposed to being critical of them but quite the contrary I have been thinking of building one for myself.
My overall attitude to E bikes is that they have their place and can be quite useful but that the available bikes only cater for one market and that most experienced riders would not want to use them even if they did not have a motor since as bicycles they are seriously lacking.
So that begs the question -- What is it that I would like to end up with from a design point of view.
Having thought about this for a while the answer is simpler than many would expect.
What I want is an E bike that is truly a motor assisted bicycle not a peddle assisted motor bike.
This implies that it is a bike that is nice to ride without motor assist and can be ridden in this way most of the time without paying a great penalty in weight, style or ergonomics.
Clearly there are potential difficulties with this since most of the existing offerings are handicapped by being too heavy to ever be ridden far with out their electric assistance even if their ergonomics worked but looking at it from an engineering and construction point of view It seems to me that this is probably the result of the manufacturers thinking that peddle assisted motor bikes is what the market wants.
So what does the bike I am envisioning look like -- From a frame lay out perspective it would be basically a touring road bike with drop bars. The details of the frame need to be carefully thought out because weight is going to become a major factor since the finished weight of the bike needs to be around the 12 kg mark and this is not going to be easy given the electrics in most existing bikes account for somewhere between 8 and 10 kg. It probably means the frame can not be steel or even Alum but has to be a carbon fiber but I do not think the construction details are going to be as difficult as it first seems because if you are trying to end up with a bike that will be predominantly peddled with the assist only being used on long hills or into head winds then the electrics do not need to weigh anything like 10kg. My thinking here is that anybody who cycles regularly will find no difficulty in peddling down hills or even along flat under normal conditions so the total percentage of time the assist is being used will be limited even when they need to get somewhere without exerting themselves too much.
This is where my envisaged bike differs completely to the existing bikes which tend to be used with the assistance engaged all of the time because the riders do not want to peddle much and even if they do the bike is too heavy to ride unassisted even along a flat road for any great distance.
Whether all this is true will only become self evident if and when someone gets around to building a bike that fulfills these requirements and given I would like to know the answer thats what i intend to do.

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Re: Why ebikes are good / bad

Postby Joeblake » Sat May 22, 2010 11:29 am

GraemeK wrote: My thinking here is that anybody who cycles regularly will find no difficulty in peddling down hills or even along flat under normal conditions so the total percentage of time the assist is being used will be limited even when they need to get somewhere without exerting themselves too much.


+1

My trike, with everything attached, batteries, motor, panniers, solar panels, weighs in at over 33 kg, but even over a distance of 70 km I've not found the extra weight too much of a problem, except when going up a hill, and that is where the extra weight (ie motor) comes in handy. (And going downhill it helps with coasting up to a higher speed. I tend to overtake light "traditional" bikes at about 4-5 km/h.)

Considering I've been riding the same trike since 1991 or thereabouts (without the motor), my average speed (just riding casually) has dropped from about 20 km/h to just over 18. The drop I'd attribute to a combination of age (I'm now just over 60), an increase in body mass (up from about 91 kg to 99), degeneration of my feet, ankles and knee joints, riding consistently on a route which is now much hillier than that of the '90s, and carrying the extra weight of motor and batteries. At one stage I had added a "bikini" fairing to the front of the trike which seemed to give an increase of nearly 1 km/h on the average, and I'm planning on rebuilding it.

So I'd say that the extra mass of batteries and motor is not of particular importance, especially over flat ground.

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Re: Why ebikes are good / bad

Postby x8pg2qr » Sat May 22, 2010 11:58 am

Downsides This is not a comprehensive list.

Heavy
My apartment has bicycle racks, where the bicycle has to be hanging vertically off the ground.

A complete e-bike weight ≈ 25kg, which is a significant weight to lift off the ground, turn vertical, and then hang on a hook. I could potentially damage the bicycle, myself, or my office clothes (e.g. if I choose to wear them) doing that. I wish accommodation designers would stick to the standard A-frames, or floor mounted racks (that don’t just secure the wheel).

Another key
Most bicycles I’ve seen use a key to activate the battery, or remove it. This is an additional key to carry around (and lose), in addition to one for a U-lock.

Charger & batteries
These can be quite large. Like any rechargeable device, the buyer may want an extra charger or batteries; these chargers/batteries may or may not be standard across product lines, which may affect battery interchange between brands, or buying new batteries many years after the bicycle is released.

Nascent
Millions of electric bicycles are sold annually, especially in China, including by large manufacturers like Giant. Whether these are suitable for the Australian market is another matter (200W limit, looks like a bicycle, aesthetics etc). Still, Australian buyers are still early adopters, and suffer related downsides: limited variety, higher prices. Bikes may not have reached the shop floor, especially in small towns. If bicycles are bought from beyond the LBS, getting service may be an issue.
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Re: Why ebikes are good / bad

Postby Joeblake » Sat May 22, 2010 3:11 pm

I think with an increase in the number of e-bikes your point about parking will be taken up and hopefully it will become a "city planner's" problem rather than just individual buildings. The parking problem isn't just related to bikes. Recumbent bikes and trikes are also becoming more common and their parking requirements will also need to be addressed. Hopefully that will also translate into the need for better cyclepaths to be recognised.

Since I don't travel into the city and park very often, the security issue of bikes and batteries isn't one which affects me personally, but it's certainly a valid point. On the "New Inventors" a few weeks ago a lady demonstrated a kevlar reinforced parking cover for bikes (Secure-Cycle
http://www.abc.net.au/tv/newinventors/txt/s2874704.htm ) which I'd like to have. I think it would solve your key problem, since you probably wouldn't need it with you, only at home if you needed to remove your battery.

I agree with your point about different batteries and chargers for different machinery. But I think we had the same problem with video tapes in the fight between VHS and Betamax. Eventually market forces (not necessarily the best determiner) gave us a single winner. Just waiting to see what happens with 3D TV :roll: )

I suppose that's one advantage of the "home brew" approach, in that I can change components in the future. For example, I'm using lead acid batteries at present, rather than anything else because (a) it's proven technology (b) it's currently cheaper and (c) more widely available, almost universal, than other batteries. When new, better, cheaper, batteries come on the market, I'll just change over. I reckon I'll probably need to replace my present batteries at least once (say 3 years from now) before getting rid of the lead acid.

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Re: Why ebikes are good / bad

Postby x8pg2qr » Sat May 22, 2010 5:27 pm

Another downside

At current prices and my salary, there are no electric "beater bikes", therefore none of the benefits they bring, e.g. WRT theft etc.

If batteries are not standardised, then future electric "beater bikes" may be the doman of those with electrical-savvy, or have an LBS with such savvy.
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Re: Why ebikes are good / bad

Postby Johnj » Sat May 22, 2010 10:49 pm

I go riding weekly with my sister and she's just bought a pedal-assist bike. She's approaching 50, reasonably fit, but has arthritic knees. She cycles because she enjoys it and its good exercise, but is limited because she's unable to push hard up hills on her old heavy mountain bike because its too painful. The bike she bought is a pedalec, ie assistance is proportional to pedal effort, so its good for starting and getting up hills. You still have to pedal to get any assistance, so as far as I'm concerned it is definitely a bicycle. It's a bit like riding with a personal tailwind.

The pedal-assist bike has given her cycling a new lease of life. Yesterday we rode from her house in Campsie to Ramsgate Beach and back, longest ride I've been on with her (35 km). Next week we'll be going to Balmain, which she did by herself after she bought her new bike. For her that means conquering Croydon Avenue and Lilyfield Hill, something she couldn't do without walking previously.

She's now contemplating commuting from Campsie to Kogarah Bay if she's on the appropriate shift (maybe once a week). The electric bike has extended her range, reduced the number of rest breaks she needs and will increase the number of kms she does. It doesn't hurt her ego that the bike gets plenty of attention :) , far more than the retro collectors items I ride :( .
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Re: Why ebikes are good / bad

Postby x8pg2qr » Sun May 23, 2010 12:19 am

Johnj wrote:I go riding weekly with my sister and she's just bought a pedal-assist bike.


Maybe you could let us know which one, and where she bought from.

I’m guessing that most people in this forum, or even this thread own one. (edit: I meant “don’t own one”).
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Re: Why ebikes are good / bad

Postby Johnj » Sun May 23, 2010 11:33 am

x8pg2qr wrote:
Johnj wrote:I go riding weekly with my sister and she's just bought a pedal-assist bike.


Maybe you could let us know which one, and where she bought from.


She bought a Shoprider Sunrunner. Shoprider produce mobility scooters. More info here and she bought from this place in Kingsgrove that specialises in scooters.

She rode a number of bikes and liked this one because it worked the best as a bicycle, with decent handling and good brakes. It is also light (19.5kg) for an electric bike. The 5 amp-hour battery gives her a range of about 50km if she uses the motor sparingly. She could double the range if she carried another battery. It uses a Lithium Iron Phosphate battery and the 5 amp-hour one weighs only 1.5kg. The biggest weakness of the bike is the 3-speed Shimano Nexus hub. A 7 or 8 speed one would give a better spread of gears and enable her to take full advantage of the hill-climbing assistance. I can see an upgrade coming up...

The problem she found is that a lot of the retailers don't understand bikes. They were reluctant to let her test-ride and would sometimes send her off on whatever they had on the floor even if it wasn't the model she was interested in. One remarked "it's just a bike" as though one electric bike is just like any other.
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Re: Why ebikes are good / bad

Postby russellgarrard » Mon May 24, 2010 9:12 am

I've decided to 'jump back in' so to speak, cars are po'ing me off!

Two things, the E-Bike industry is DEAD in the water until the industry standard is lifepo4. ALOT of the cheapies are still running heavy unwieldy SLA's. This makes the bicycle's dangerous to handle.

Top speed is another 'bummer', 25km/ph is too low, a decent cyclist can get 30-35km/ph easy. Until the power limit is raised from 200w by the australian government, we will see no change in the eyes of 'serious' commuters.

Brakes, alot of them don't have the required stopping power for the extra weight...you hit the brakes then continue into whatever object you were trying to avoid in the first place.

I'll edit this post when I think of more...when they get all this right, they will really start to take off!
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Re: Why ebikes are good / bad

Postby Zynster » Mon May 24, 2010 10:03 am

bendertiger wrote:Top speed is another 'bummer', 25km/ph is too low, a decent cyclist can get 30-35km/ph easy. Until the power limit is raised from 200w by the australian government, we will see no change in the eyes of 'serious' commuters.


I disagree. Sustaining 30kph + is not easy. You have to be pretty fit. I average around 30kph when I'm training, but for commuting I'm down around 20kph average.

I'd mark this "need for speed" as a downside of e-bikes. There is a temptation to upgrade to higher illegal wattages. 1000w kits are readily available on Ebay. I know two guys running higher watt motors. One is using a 500w Ebay kit, and the other is riding an OP1 (800watts) which came with a certificate claiming 200w. This is an area that will be hard to police as there is no simple way to measure the strength of a motor.

Speed is not what e-bikes are about. If you want to go fast on a bike, grow some legs or get a motorbike.
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Re: Why ebikes are good / bad

Postby Joeblake » Mon May 24, 2010 10:50 am

"Top" speed should not be confused with "average" speed. When I ride into Perth CBD I average about 22-23 km/h. It's the return leg (going up Welshpool Road) which knocks 7-8 km/h off the two-way average. Having the motor gets my average (over about 55 km both ways) up to about 18 km/h. According to the bus timetable the average speed (during peak hour) is just a shade under 30 km/h. I don't drive a car, so I don't know what the average speed for that trip would be but I think it would be approaching 25 km/h or less. I also ride a motorcycle, which is like a magic carpet in traffic. I can get into the CBD about 10 minutes quicker than the bus does. (The bus takes about 40 minutes from my nearest bus stop.)

On the trike I can take many shortcuts that larger vehicles cannot use (eg a footbridge over a major road).

Even though the electric motor only has a maximum speed of 16 or so km/h, and I seldom need to use it on the inbound leg, over the whole trip it makes a considerable difference, and I'm yet to make a "flat out" assault on Welshpool Road, when I use the motor the whole way up.

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Re: Why ebikes are good / bad

Postby MiG » Mon May 24, 2010 7:31 pm

Zynster wrote:I disagree. Sustaining 30kph + is not easy. You have to be pretty fit. I average around 30kph when I'm training, but for commuting I'm down around 20kph average.

I disagree. Looking at my commuting spreadsheet that I've kept since I started last year, my min avg speed is 24.2 and my avg avg is 29.9 for a ~16.5 km ride (depending on route).
More important is your sustainable max speed (call it cruise speed). Without a headwind a cruise speed of 30 km/h is dead easy on my cool bikes, although my lower back does have a few words to say about the aero position. :)
Given their extra mass and size, I think the 200 W limit is a bit low and 400 W or so is more appropriate especially when hills are considered.
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Re: Why ebikes are good / bad

Postby hartleymartin » Mon May 24, 2010 10:17 pm

e-Bikes = GOOD

unregistered electric motor-scooters/motor-cycles/mopeds = BAD

Be careful to make that distinction.

My trip average speed is about 15-18kph on a good day. My usual cruising speed is about 20-25kph on the flats. Introduce a hill and I get slower.

Electric motors should not be available to use in such a manner that would effectively turn a bicycle into an electric scooter. Use the electric motor to take the muscle-work out of hill-climbing or when you've got killer headwinds. If you want a motor-scooter, go get a license, and register a proper motor scooter.
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Re: Why ebikes are good / bad

Postby Zynster » Tue May 25, 2010 9:24 am

MiG wrote:my avg avg is 29.9 for a ~16.5 km ride (depending on route).


If you can sustain an average of 29.9kph for 16.5 kms, then you're pretty fit compared to most people.

Now my understanding (I might be wrong on this) is with most e-bikes, the power assist cuts out at 30kph, which would indicate that 25-30kph should be well achievable (perhaps someone with experience riding e-bikes could comment on this). I thinks that's quite fast enough. Do you really think it's wise to have inexperienced riders zooming down a bike path at 30kph+?
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Re: Why ebikes are good / bad

Postby Joeblake » Tue May 25, 2010 10:45 am

I think the law in many states is that it is (already) not permitted to operate any sort of power assistance while on a dual use path, but that doesn't stop me from pedalling to well over 30 km/h. It's all pretty much a very unsatisfactory compromise really.

Some e-bikes have a "speed limiter" while other motors (such as my two Heinzmanns) have an upper rev per minute (197 rpm) which means that the top speed is partially determined by the diameter of the wheel. So although I have two electrikes with the same spec motors, one (26") has a top speed of about 24 km/h and the other (16") has a top speed of only about 16 km/h, but climbs hills better than the 26" wheel.

As mentioned elsewhere I've had the experience on several occasions of doing a 70 km ride on the 16" wheel and yet I returned an average speed of over 18 km/h.

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Re: Why ebikes are good / bad

Postby KenGS » Tue May 25, 2010 11:56 am

Maybe we need a thread on the pros and cons of speed/power limiting rather than diverting this thread which is meant to discuss e-bikes in general?
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Re: Why ebikes are good / bad

Postby KenGS » Tue May 25, 2010 12:01 pm

Joeblake wrote:I think the law in many states is that it is (already) not permitted to operate any sort of power assistance while on a dual use path

I looked all through the Vic laws when researching for the Definitive laws thread and found nothing so I assume power assistance is permitted there.
I guess not being able to use power assistance when not on a shared path is under the Cons heading when it applies.
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Re: Why ebikes are good / bad

Postby Joeblake » Tue May 25, 2010 12:08 pm

KenGS wrote:Maybe we need a thread on the pros and cons of speed/power limiting rather than diverting this thread which is meant to discuss e-bikes in general?



I don't see any diversion or need to create a separate thread. The heading is "why ebikes are good/bad".

I see that (not) having a speed/power limit can definitely be a good/bad thing about e-bikes.

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