Tubulars - are they really worth it?

[Chaderotti]

Building up a track bike... deciding on the wheels and if I should go clincher or tubular. We have an indoor wooden track so tyres are a one time purchase.
Tub tyres are bucket loads more expensive but I guess cheaper than a comparable clincher so the prices kinda even out. More importantly, is the buzz about tubulars and their ridiculous tyre pressure a good buzz or is it just bucket loads of placebo?
One positive to going tubs is that I can run Dugast tyres, expensive... but you buy them once and you're set for years.

[foo on patrol]

Yes they are worth it! You also don't in 99% of times need to worry about rolling a tyre off the rim if you get a flat. It's like going from a 380grm to 180grm tyre and you don't need to worry about blowing a tyre off the rim neither.

[Chaderotti]

Mind you this is on a wooden track so the chance of puncture is zero. Tyres wise, is it best to just start at the best? Like the dugast pista silk sure they may be $142 but you mount them once and then forget about them.

[foo on patrol]

Hi Chad,
That depends on whether you have a pair of spares? When I was racing, I would ride all heats and warm up on my cottons and the finals on the silks!

I don't know about now, but we used to buy a spare set of tubs and hide away under the bed, to let them cure a bit and then they would be a bit faster again, by the time you put them on.

Drop the air out of them after you have finished racing, not totally, but to about 50psi.

Foo

[Corsa]

+1 to Foo.
Definitely singles on the track. If the budget doesn't stretch to silks then buy the best cottons you can find, they will still be faster than any clincher. Keep them semi inflated when not in use to avoid unnecessarily stretching the casing and keep em in wheel bags or covers to protect them from damage in transit and store in cool, dark, dry place to protect from perishing.
Find an experienced tracky/mechanic to stick the tyres on for you. I recommend shellac for track (never use shellac for road tyres).

[Chaderotti]

Will silk tyres last years like most track tyres? Or are they designed to be only used for a couple of races? The Dugast tyres I linked above are $140, the next, top cotton tyre was $100.

[foo on patrol]

Depends on how you look after them Chad! I had a set of Clement 3s that I got two full seasons out of them, and then ran them out at training. This set I used every weekend of the track season.(October-March) These had been left under the bed in talcum powder for two years.

The racing I did on them ranged from, sprint series, 1500mtr handicaps to 50klm point scores, so there was a lot of variations in the use, oh and one six day event, that was three hours of racing each night!

Foo

[brentono]

Agree with the others
Tubulars, Silk (silk is actually a much stronger fiber than cotton) and shellac for track.
Look after them well (the sidewalls can be delicate)
Good Luck, with the great tracks now, no worries.
Cheers,
BrentonO

[gemm]

Mind you this is on a wooden track so the chance of puncture is zero. Tyres wise, is it best to just start at the best? Like the dugast pista silk sure they may be $142 but you mount them once and then forget about them.

Actually punctures are reasonably common. not as bad as the road obviously, but there are these things on the wooden track called splinters!
I keep the dugusts for important races only.
Tubulars are better because if/when you do get a puncture, the tyre stays seated. Instead of you trying to ride on a metal clincher rim edge on 42deg slope = certain crash.

[Chaderotti]

The frame was shipped from Bulgaria yesterday or the day before, should be here some time next week then I can work on the parts for the build
Also, the budget doesn't stretch to silks, so I'll be looking at top cottons instead.

[DAVCLARE]

On a side note Chaderotti
What are you riding at the track at the moment.

Regards David

[Chaderotti]

Bringing this thread back to life. I'm going to be getting a pair of wheels soonish, the budget doesn't stretch to Dugast cottons sadly, so I'll be dropping down to a pair of conti sprinters when I get the wheels.

Sorry for the late reply Dave but at the moment I'm riding a Pro-Lite Trentino. I gotta sell that to fund the wheels!

[Magnus]

Hi,

I'm very new to track and would love to ask a few questions re. tyres.

One of the posters in this thread says he uses shellac rather than rim cement/mastik for gluing track tyres - is that for cotton as well as silk? - why use shellac?

Is the shellac being used just the common variety or a special type?

How is it applied? is it the one coat on the rim, one coat on the tyre tape and then a final coat on the rim before fitting method?

Finally, why put a (new?) tyre in talcum powder and exactly what does this entail .

many thanks for any answers

cheers

[Quinns Rocks Roadie]

Hi Magnus.

One of the posters in this thread says he uses shellac rather than rim cement/mastik for gluing track tyres - is that for cotton as well as silk? - why use shellac?

Because it dries hard/solid - road glue/mastic remains oozy/sticky and can allow a tyre to roll off the rim under high side forces....use shellac for any tubular tyre types used on the track for safety of yourself and other riders.

Is the shellac being used just the common variety or a special type?

Standard shellac flakes/metho solution.

How is it applied? is it the one coat on the rim, one coat on the tyre tape and then a final coat on the rim before fitting method?

Yes, allow the first two coats to dry, then fresh shellac on rim and fit tyre, inflate and leave for a week !.

Finally, why put a (new?) tyre in talcum powder and exactly what does this entail .

Some writers say this is an old wives tale....talc inside clincher tyres and on tube assists with tyre/tube fitting (no kinks/creases) and stops tube adhering to tyre and rim tape.
For tubulars I have heard that talc helps to preserve/dry/toughen the rubber tread but there is conjecture on this.
In the past I used to store cassette recorder/vcr belts in talc, and this stopped the belts going soft/sticky and decaying during storage and seemed to improve service life.

Eric.

[foo on patrol]

Hi Magnus,

I have never used shellac, so I cannot comment on it.
I have only ever used Bostick and contact cement without any problems. ( both cotton and silk )
The last set of wheels were done over 30yrs ago and were still stuck fast!

Foo

[Magnus]

Thanks Eric and Foo,

Just a follow up Eric - how hard is it to remove a tyre that has been "shellaced"? - compared to a "mastiked" one. More difficult I'd be guessing. Do you need to use a solvent ?

And one for Foo. How do you manage to contact cement a tubular on - given that you probably need to move the tyre over a little when you don't quite centre it first time sometimes - I was under the impression that you don't really get second chances with contact cement.

thanks fellahs

Magnus

[Quinns Rocks Roadie]

You have to try pretty hard to remove a shellaced on tyre - once you've got it started with fingers, levers, screwdrivers etc then it comes off reasonably easy....the shellac is tough on side motion but quite brittle in tension once you get the removal started.....just muscles, no solvents required.
To preempt Foo, I imagine fitting the tyre whilst the contact glue is still liquid, ie immediately to allow centering the tyre on the rim.
I have never heard of using contact glue but I am sure that it would be as secure as you can get once dried thoroughly.
I used mostly White Bostik to fasten my track tyres and yes it is ime fine on shallower banked tracks - on my best wheels I used shellac.
Shellac glueing is quite a process but reported in lab tests to give the lowest rolling resistance, elsewise you should be perfectly ok with the Bostic.
You have to try pretty hard to roll a tyre off the rim (yes I have done it once with a rear road tyre with Clement road glue, swerved hard and drunk on the way to a GF, I broke my fibula just above the ankle because my shoe caught the bitumen and flipped my heel at an unnatural angle) and you should fine with Bostic on the track.

Now go and get amongst it,
Eric.

[foo on patrol]

Yep, Eric is right about not letting the glue get to the point of dry to touch. You just let the rim glue get a little bit more dryer than the initial application and then, you put some on the tape put it on the rim, inflate to 30/40psi centre it and inflate to 120psi.

The only time that I ever rolled one was, doing a bunny hop over a rider that fell in front of me in a sprint and landing with the front wheel crossed up. I raced on Ipswich, Moree, Toowoomba and Canberra velodromes and flat tracks like Balmoral, Bathurst, Bundaberg Grafton and Goulburn ( spelling ) to give you an example of different tracks without dramas. Also I raced on the wheels the same day as glueing them on, on the odd occasion when I had to.

Hope this helps you Magnus!

Foo

[Magnus]

Many thanks for the input - invaluable.

cheers

[brentono]

Should I? Well, if I am to make a small contribution (having used shellac on more than a few occasions)
The reason shellac was used on the track (and may well still be?) was to due more regular changing (than road)
of tyres on varieties of wheels for different types of track events
(it seemed most suitable, and least destructive to the overly-delicate track tyres)
On that point (Eric) I would not be using "levers, screwdrivers"... as it might (or would damage) the tyre.
... just a thought.
Thumbs should suffice (with a bit of weeties) and once started, the tyre pulls away from the rim, fairly easily.
Shellacked tyres, would be useable drying overnight (24hrs), and at a pinch, shorter, if conditions were right.
IMO, Cheers.

[foo on patrol]

Also, if you put the valve in and then rotate the wheel around so that it is at the bottom (valve)you place your toes in between the spokes and then pull up from there.

Help and advice is always welcome Brenton!

[Chaderotti]

Reading all this is scary!
I'm scared I'll !! BAN ME NOW FOR SWEARING !! up a good pair of cottons trying to glue them down in the future.

[foo on patrol]

^^ It's piece of weewee Chad, you just take your time and listen to us, that have experience.^^

[orbeas]

should tubs be glued on without rim tape??
as iv remouved the tyre and there is no rim tape..
thx

[tripstobaltimore]

should tubs be glued on without rim tape??
as iv remouved the tyre and there is no rim tape..
thx

no rim tape!!!