eBay is torturing me...

Vintage, yesteryear and retro biking

Postby Kid_Carbine » Tue Oct 30, 2007 10:14 am

531db wrote:I have a 1946 Super Elliott with dropouts, I'd say this frameset is 1946-51.

I would agree except for the Continental headset [shown below] which was not normally seen in this country before the mid 50's, although it was well known in the Continent & the UK by about 1947.

I seem to remember someone telling me that you brought back with you, from your recent overseas trip, an early post war 'Hobbs of Barbican' frame & it probably has a Continental headset too. I'm as jealous as hell.

My 1937 Carbine Pacemaker was built with an Osgear system from new & it uses regular road type dropouts, probably because these Cyclo dropouts didn't exist then. Note that the illustration of the Osgear shows regular road dropouts, so it possibly pre-dates the Cyclo & Super Champion ones.
Super Champion also made their own dropouts for this system. [see pic]

Incidentally, if anyone has ANY Osgear parts I would be most glad to hear from them. I have almost all of a complete system, but some parts are a bit 'ordinary' & I want to restore this Carbine just the way it was.
For those who think that this is a funny system, note that it was the most popular & widely used derailleur in the world up untill the early 50's & could still be bought new in the early 60's [old stock] There were millions in use before WW2.

ImageImage
Image
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by BNA » Tue Oct 30, 2007 11:12 am

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Postby 531db » Tue Oct 30, 2007 11:12 am

Chris, dating frames/bikes from not too good Ebay photo's is always a challenge.

I note your comments re "continental" headsets, and in general would agree except that I've noted as a 'very general' rule, the higher quality the frame, the earlier a "continental" headset was used. If this frame was built by Tom Robinson (S/E's framebuilder of the time), Tom being the inovator/leader that he was could have used a "continental" headset earlier than say Malvern Star etc.

Secondly after downloading and 'blowing up' the photo's I've noticed that there seems to be very little upper and lower head lug, I'm wondering if this frame was either an original framebuilder or subsequent modified conversion to "continental" headset?

A couple of other points found after enlarging photo's. Brake cable guides on top of the top tube :? , and a low rake fork for a 1940's road bike. (However this bike could have been built for use both as a geared road bike and fixed track bike - not uncommon especially in South Australia at the time).

And yes my 1951 fillet brazed Hobbs of Barbican has a "continental" headset as was built.
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Postby Kid_Carbine » Tue Oct 30, 2007 11:38 am

Peter
Thanks for the info & yes, the 'conversion' to Continental headsets was not common but it did happen. I have a 1941 Carbine frame here that has had this mod. Other things have been brazed on as well, but will all be removed soon.

I too will have a closer look at the headset in the LP

Drop me a line via e-mail if you like [link at bottom of this post] as I would dearly like to compare notes & we have a common friend who speaks highly of you. I can probably help you with the missing headset parts for the 'BSA' frame you were given recently. Actually, I had bought it & given it to your benefactor, so it all goes round untill it finds a home.

Regards

EDIT
Well I did download the picture & blow it up a little & I agree, there's not much meat there where the headlug meets the headset & I should have seen that myself. [Note, give self an uppercut]
If it really is a conversion, then I will agree with your asessment of its age, however, I have definately seen those dropouts still used on mid 50's frames.

If it really is a conversion, I suggest that it was done a while ago since the headset looks to be of quite early manufacture & would be one of the reasons that I might have had an interest in it. Actually, the make & model of the headset may well be the clue to its history.

It's a frame that certainly deserves a second look.

[OUCH!]
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Postby Kid_Carbine » Wed Oct 31, 2007 1:15 am

oldtimer wrote:
The Nervex number, which might not tell you much, is 593064D222138.
The number in my bottom bracket is pretty much the same with the following variations.
"59*3064*D22[2]E38" The * is in fact a small '0' positioned high like you would use when describing a compass heading of XX degrees. The [2] is in fact a half sized 2 also positioned high. The third last character is an 'E' but I had to use a magnifier in strong light to be sure of what it is.

This number is probably a patent number, or part number, or design number, or secret agent spy code number or something, but it's not a frame serial number
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Postby oldtimer » Wed Oct 31, 2007 6:41 am

Kid Carbine

Image of SJH stripped down to the bare essentials.
I will post other images if this works OK.

Image
Last edited by oldtimer on Wed Oct 31, 2007 8:10 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Postby europa » Wed Oct 31, 2007 7:27 am

oldtimerm, please use the 'edit' function of photobucket to reduce the size of your photos to 640x320 (it's a standard photobucket size named 'webboard').

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Postby Kid_Carbine » Wed Oct 31, 2007 9:43 am

Well that certainly whet the apetite.
It should look like a really nice piece of kit when it's built & I'm looking forward to seeing it come back together bit by bit.

Do you live anywhere near the current owner of the SJH name? If you didn't know, Bob Jones willed his entire business stock to longtime friends, the Sepping family which is headed up by Bob. I plan to see him again soon to see if he has SJH decals, particularly early 50's ones. Wish me luck.

Pictures out to about 600 - 650 wide will be really good so bring 'em on.
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Postby europa » Wed Oct 31, 2007 10:43 am

europa wrote:oldtimerm, please use the 'edit' function of photobucket to reduce the size of your photos to 640x320 (it's a standard photobucket size named 'webboard').

Richard


oops, didn't mean to get your username wrong.
Thanks for doing it though.

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Postby GaryF » Wed Oct 31, 2007 8:07 pm

Guys, I've really enjoyed reading this thread. I am interested in your knowledge of framebuilders of the 30's, 40,s 50's and 60's.

I have an interesting old bike and would really appreciate any clues you could give me that may lead to me finding it's identity. The bike is approx. 1940's and has Osgear.

I have a few photo's but no real close-ups of the lug work.

I will try to take some close-ups and post them in a new thread soon - so I don't hijack this great thread.

Thanks in advance,

Gary.
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Postby Kid_Carbine » Wed Oct 31, 2007 9:18 pm

GaryF
Can you also e-mail me the pictures in full size. within reason the bigger the better. I love going over the pictures & learning stuff & if it has an Osgear, then I am doubly interested to see where everything fits & what pieces I am missing.

My e-mail link is at the bottom of this post.
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Postby Mulger bill » Thu Nov 01, 2007 5:50 pm

Call me stupid if you wish... I have.

How the hell does the Osgear work, I've done a lot of Googling since it was first mentioned here and am totally lost :oops:

Thanks in advance, sorry for the threadjack.

Shaun
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Postby oldtimer » Thu Nov 01, 2007 6:39 pm

Kid Carbine

Image

Thanks for the offer to seek out stickers for the SJH. The heir to the bike and I had a discussion and we think it might add to the historical value if the 2 colour paint around the lugs, plus the fine blue pin striping was left there and the many chips filled in. However we are open to other opinions.
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Postby stryker84 » Thu Nov 01, 2007 6:43 pm

Gosh, that is magnificent.
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Postby Kid_Carbine » Thu Nov 01, 2007 8:01 pm

oldtimer wrote:Kid Carbine

Image

Thanks for the offer to seek out stickers for the SJH. The heir to the bike and I had a discussion and we think it might add to the historical value if the 2 colour paint around the lugs, plus the fine blue pin striping was left there and the many chips filled in. However we are open to other opinions.
oldtimer

Yep, they're Nervex professional lugs all right. Oooooh, thats almost s*x with a paint job & pinstripes. I would be quite jealous if it wasnt for the fact that I too have one, so if you are one of the poor unfortunates that don't own one of these sensuous SJH's then nar-nar-na-nar-nar.

What I don't have, however, is one of those lovely headsets, but I am keeping a keen eye open & a Gran Sport one could be coming my way soon.

If you can restore it back to it's 1960 condition with regards to the components, you will have a really nice ride that many in the Alloy & Carbon frame crowd would really rather have. [opinions may vary]

Mulger Bill
The Osgear is simplicity itself. Back near the wheel is a fork that fits over the chain & is mounted under the chainstay. It has a vertical pivot & is spring loaded to the outside, away from the wheel. A cable runs up to the control & simply pulls the fork across towards the wheel, thereby shifting the chain to the larger sprockets. The slack in the chain is taken up by the tensioner arm under & behind the chainwheel.
These were initially made for three speed clusters with 1/8" chain & later for 4 speeds with both 1/8" & 3/16" chains. Eventually a 5 speed model was released but the Campagnolo Gran Sport had hit the scene & that ultimately proved to be the end of all other derailleur designs.

Modern derailleurs combine the functions of both tensioning, & the lateral repositioning of the chain, but in the Osgear, they are separate functions. Like I said, simplicity itself.
Last edited by Kid_Carbine on Sat Nov 03, 2007 4:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Mulger bill » Thu Nov 01, 2007 8:12 pm

Mr Carbine.

After flicking from your reply to the image and back a few times, I've got to agree about the simplicity, what was so much better about the Gran Sport that it was able to supplant something so elegantly uncomplicated?

Shaun
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Postby Kid_Carbine » Thu Nov 01, 2007 8:26 pm

Bill

The one important advantage that pushed the Campagnolo design to the fore was simply this.
It worked better in competition, & in the end, everybody wants what the winners are using & all the manufacturers will make what the customers are buying, .... or go broke.

Chris
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Postby Mulger bill » Fri Nov 02, 2007 6:58 pm

Thanks for your help Chris, greatly appreciated.

The more I learn about these marvelous machines, the more entranced I become.

Shaun
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Postby Kid_Carbine » Sat Nov 03, 2007 4:05 am

Keep with us & those of us who adore the way it was will have you lusting after a lovely 50's era classic lightweight with all the exotic equipment of the day. You might even find yourself up at all hours just learning about the history of these things & waiting on eBay listings to end. [Check the timestamp on this post, yes, I'm going to bed soon] At least I scored a pair of 1947 to '53 'Lytalloy' brake levers by Hobbs of Barbican to make my brakes complete.
I wouldn't have it any other way. G'night.
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Retract personal info

Postby 5 Star Rolf » Tue Nov 06, 2007 9:55 pm

531db wrote:Well it's a track frame from 1955-65 ish (note front forks and track ends).
Components are mid/late 70's in the main with the exception of the earlier Ambrosio adjustable handlebar stem are nothing special.
For those looking for a bargain, an avid collector and dealer is a bidder and he does bid high.


Hi Peter...please retract my personal details form this forum, I prefer It was not public knowledge for reasons of security, - Thanks Rolf.

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