Hillbrick classic fixed gear ... umm ... toy

[europa]

I'm baaaaaack

So I'm about to throw money that could be better spent elsewhere on a bike I don't need for no other reason than n+1 (and, if I'm honest, a bit of retail therapy ).

The grand old Europa has reached a point where improvements really boil down to replacing things that are broken (even them cheap rims have proven that 'cheap' doesn't always equal 'bad'). For those that don't know her and those that don't remember her, I bought her new in the mid 80's, hung her in the shed when a new bike arrived a few years back, then brought her back to life with a suicide hub. Since then, she's slowly been changed to what you see here (the changes are numerous and yes, the suicide hub didn't last long) :



She's comfortable, reliable and a great commuter.

The plan is to build a new bike of the style I'm calling a 'classic sports bike'.
Classic because the stying will be that classic styling embodied by the Europa.
Sports bike because she'll be light, fast and with good components.
Not a race bike because to me, 'sports' means comfort rates as important as performance, along with the recognition that cruising is as much a part of life as going like blazes.

You can probably imagine the sort of whirlpool I've been in for the last month or so. The whole stupid idea was triggered by seeing Colnago's beautiful new fixed sportster in the flesh ... er ... steel, along with my fiance telling me to buy it and me making a list of changes I'd need longer than your arm.

A chance visit to Adelaide's local fixie shop (North Adelaide Cycles - yup, that's a plug, Kim and Danielle are very nice people) introduced me to Hillbrick's lugged, double butted steel, single speed frame.
That frame will be the heart of the new build - pictured.



As it happens, the frame I saw in the shop is for sale - it's a deep red with the chromed lugs shown above and chromed forks - tis indeed a thing of beauty and the work is typical of Hillbrick's ie, lovely. A quick standover using wheels with no tyres show that the size is somewhere in the ballpark - if it proves not to be right, I'll get a custom frame made by Hillbrick.

The next item of discussion is the componentry and it's here that some suggestions and thoughts would be helpful.

My wallet is far from bottomless but if I'm starting with a frame like this, and the aim is to build a weekend plaything (as opposed to a workhorse like the poor Europa). I'm not going to use el-crapo components or second hand bits scrounged off ebay. The aim is to outfit the frame with components that complement the frame rather than buy topend everything.

So.
Frame - as pictured, at horrendous cost

Wheels.
I plan to use Velocity rims because they are Australian and they are good quality.
Which rim?
I've got Deep-V's on the Jamis and like their strength, their ride and their look. However, they are heavy and so am leaning towards the Fusion (tallywhacker and db531 might remember this discussion from earlier days ). The Aerohead is lighter again but as Velocity themselves describe it as a race rim, not a training rim, I'm wary. Thoughts?
Hubs?
The Novatech have served me well on the Europa and they're reasonably priced. On the other hand, the Formula hubs that Velocity use have a good reputation. I'm tempted to build the wheels myself (for the satisfaction). Other suggestions are welcome.

Cranks and bottom bracket.
I've just converted the Europa to 165mm cranks (from 170) and while they're great going forwards, I'm less impressed with the extra muscle needed for stopping (bit like going up a gear) - I've only done about 60km on the 165s so opinions might change. On the other hand, the extra clearance is welcome. At this point, I don't know what ground clearance is available on the Hillbrick frame (and if I go custom, can order anything I want). My preference would be for the 170mm but would be happy with 165s again.
But ... what crank?
The Sugino R on the Europa are nice. Maybe the Sugino R2. The Sugino bottom bracket runs very well.
Other thoughts are welcome ... and it'll depend a bit on what I can get I guess.
Chainring will be the classic style on the Europa, not the solid ring that comes with the Messenger.

The Hillbrick frame takes a Quill! Very welcome - it means you can actually dial in the fit properly which is something that is difficult with the threadless system unless you have access to lots of different necks.

Brakes front and rear - front because you need brakes, rear because I do most of my riding on the hoods and if you've got a brake lever there, you'd might as well have the brake on the back. Any thoughts on what brakes to buy? I'd be happy to fit Ultegra brakes but there are so many options it's silly (and hard to decide).

Handlebars are the big issue. I want road bars, not track bars, because I use road type brake levers and ride on the hoods.
I have the Nitto Noodle on the Jamis and love their shape on the tops, but the curve on their drops is too tight for my hands. Considering I used drops mostly with head winds, this isn't a huge problem on the geared bike because I just go down a gear, on the fixed gear bike, headwinds are best handled by going down onto the drops. I'd also like to ride more on the drops when mucking about, so sadly, the Noodle may not be the bars of choice for this bike.
I do like the bars on the Europa - they're the classic curve where the bar ends are angled downwards at quite an angle, and I find these quite comfy. They also allow a deep dropped position with a high tops position which offers a nice contrast between cruising, touring and aggressive (for this fat old wombat, you fit young gits would view it differently). I've got a set of old bars in the shed but would prefer a new set. Similarly I've a set of the modern ergo bars (the ones with the flat spot in the middle of their drops) and these might get a try, though there are reasons why they are in the shed and not on a bike. I would like to buy an nice new set of bars though - any suggestions? Anywhere I can see the entire Nitto range?

Brake levers.
The Europa uses Shimano600 and I suspect these are similar (or the same) to the R600 you can now buy - their profile is too thin for my liking. Similarly, the Ultegra (geared) levers on the Jamis angle up to sharpley for me.
The Tektro brake lever is supposed to be a Campy rip off - any one know them?
The Cane Creek SCR-5 looks interesting, especially with the thick rubber covering. Anyone tried them?
Any other suggestions?

Saddle. Brooks of course - no discussion there. I love both my B17s, but the short rails are an issue for fit (I need a saddle well back). The Swift is supposed to have longer rails - can anyone confirm that? Any thoughts on the various Brooks saddles? Pity the titanium rail models cost so much, I'm not sure I can justify that based on some small weight savings.

So that's it. Enough for now anyway (no-one will read this post, it's too long). Thoughts are welcome. This is a serious project and I've always been happy to look at alternatives.

Richard

[Mulger bill]

I'm baaaaaack

STUFF...

Richard

Wohoo, back to a litlle sensible silliness at last

Good to hear from you again mate, been way too long between reads.

I can't say too much ATM 'cos I can't see the pics from work

Some thoughts tho...
Tektro levers, yeah maybe. Checked 'em out on a Giant Bowery one day a while back, stopped nicely. They looked very much like the Cane Creeks Flem Cycles had on the shelf (hood excepted) My slowly maturing FG project will run old 105 aeros.

I chose Fusions on generic hubs, mainly because they aren't DeepVs I'll let you know how they go under me 83ish kgs if I can ever get the build to a stage I'm happy with I don't want to let handbuilding wheels beat me but I can see the LBS lurking in the shadows

Brakes? As always, go nuts

Have you finished that course yet?

Cheers
Shaun

[europa]

Wohoo, back to a litlle sensible silliness at last

hmmph

Good to hear from you again mate, been way too long between reads.

Ta. Too long between a lot of things.

Tektro levers, yeah maybe. Checked 'em out on a Giant Bowery one day a while back, stopped nicely. They looked very much like the Cane Creeks Flem Cycles had on the shelf (hood excepted) My slowly maturing FG project will run old 105 aeros.

Tektro are a funny firm with a mix of low end and good stuff, you can't make assumptions either way can you ... and they don't have the bling needed for a build like this.

I chose Fusions on generic hubs, mainly because they aren't DeepVs I'll let you know how they go under me 83ish kgs if I can ever get the build to a stage I'm happy with I don't want to let handbuilding wheels beat me but I can see the LBS lurking in the shadows

Hmm, I'm still up around 100kg. I like the reasonning and there is a bit of that in it, though I'm trying to be rational as well.

Brakes? As always, go nuts

$400 for a set of calipers?
Let's just say 'no'.
Strangely, I'm drawn to that look though, despite it being very non-classic.
They will be dual pivot though - an incident with a 'ute that didn't look' the other day underlines that.

Have you finished that course yet?

How do you think I can afford this sort of silliness? I've even got a generous employer throwing money at me

Richard

[brauluver]

Tektro levers, yeah maybe. Checked 'em out on a Giant Bowery one day a while back, stopped nicely. They looked very much like the Cane Creeks Flem Cycles had on the shelf (hood excepted) My slowly maturing FG project will run old 105 aeros.

Tektro are a funny firm with a mix of low end and good stuff, you can't make assumptions either way can you ... and they don't have the bling needed for a build like this.

Depends on whether you want form over function,and are prepared to let the wish to be fashionable overcome common sense.



I can attest that these common looking levers are by far the most comfortable(wider than 105) and effective levers I've ridden.the hoods are nice and wide and comfy and the feedback is great.but alas they are only common old non blingy Tektro's
Sugino cranks with a Fyxamatosis chain ring,anodized chain ring bolts(to match frame colour )and a Miche pista chain would be an awesome driveline.
Thompson elite seatpost too.

[europa]

First post I've seen from somone who's used the Tektro levers, thanks for that. I like the idea that they're wide - the old Shimano600 levers are too narrow for my big paws. They're supposed to be a rip off the Campy lever, which also has a good reputation for comfort. I also like the idea that they work - I've used other forms of Tektro lever that flexed or weren't what you'd call smooth in operation.

Richard

[brauluver]

First post I've seen from somone who's used the Tektro levers, thanks for that. I like the idea that they're wide - the old Shimano600 levers are too narrow for my big paws. They're supposed to be a rip off the Campy lever, which also has a good reputation for comfort. I also like the idea that they work - I've used other forms of Tektro lever that flexed or weren't what you'd call smooth in operation.

Richard

Flat bar tektro stuff is pretty crappy(IMO), but these are surprisingly good for a budget line product.

I've got an as new pair sitting unused in the parts bin at present.If and when you get to that stage of your build, i'm happy to loan them to you for a trial.If you don't like em then pass em back.if they suit then i'm sure we could trade parts or beer
Give me a shout when you are ready.

Dave

[Mulger bill]

OK, seen the frame.... Wow!!!!

You can't go putting second hand or low grade ebay stuff on that. Some Tektro brakes are brilliant. I'd advise against their callipers but I wouldn't say no to their levers. My hands are small enough to make wide levers borderline as a comfort issue.

Keep us up to speed pleeeeease, this is yummo.

Shaun

[familyguy]

First post I've seen from somone who's used the Tektro levers, thanks for that. I like the idea that they're wide - the old Shimano600 levers are too narrow for my big paws. They're supposed to be a rip off the Campy lever, which also has a good reputation for comfort. I also like the idea that they work - I've used other forms of Tektro lever that flexed or weren't what you'd call smooth in operation.

Richard

I've got those same Tektro levers (the black blade version) on one of my bikes. I bought them specifically because they were a Campy shape, which is bigger and easier to ride. I have a set of 6209 Shimano 600 levers that feel TINY in comparison.

The Cane Creek SCR-5's are the same shape as the Tektros, I think.

Jim

[rustychisel]

I've got those same Tektro levers (the black blade version) on one of my bikes. I bought them specifically because they were a Campy shape, which is bigger and easier to ride. I have a set of 6209 Shimano 600 levers that feel TINY in comparison.

The Cane Creek SCR-5's are the same shape as the Tektros, I think.

Jim

+1 +1 +1

They're the same shape because they're made by the same manufacturer and merely rebranded, I recall. They're excellent, and designed to mimic the Campagnolo levers and have QR buttons on the levers. Combine with calipers of your choice as required.

[europa]

Thanks for the feedback on the levers, it's the sort of thing I wanted to hear.

Richard

[rustychisel]

Welcome back, BTW Richard.

Here's the levers in question, matched to 3T Paris Roubaix classic bend bars.

[europa]

Welcome back, BTW Richard.

Thanks

matched to 3T Paris Roubaix classic bend bars.

Them's the handlebars I'm after. Where can I get them?

Does the 'Paris Roubaix' bit refer to the shape because not all 'classic' bars are that shape?

Richard

[rustychisel]

hmmm, might have to search around and be prepared to wait or spend... I bought mine from MichaelB, who I'm pretty sure does NOT have a stock of them in his shed.
'Paris-Roubaix' is the specific model type: mine are 420mm edge to edge measured at the drops and weigh 292g. They're perforated for the brake cable run which emerges on the underside of the bar about 6cm from the clamping area (rubber grommets are supplied), and they're a bit longer in the drops (ie they extend back) than most bars. Hope you find some.

[familyguy]

Thanks for the feedback on the levers, it's the sort of thing I wanted to hear.

Richard

If you have even average sized male hands, consider these (6209 as compared to Tektro);

Top


Side


6209 to 5600L



Jim

[MichaelB]

+ 1 to welcome back Richard, and glad to see you are employed as well

I actually have a R (or is it a L ?) Tektro lever in the shed if you want it. They sent me two of the one side

I have the Team Pro saddle, and I think the rails are the same length as the B17.

Anyway, look fwd to seeing some more irreverant discussions around here.

[europa]

+ 1 to welcome back Richard, and glad to see you are employed as well

I actually have a R (or is it a L ?) Tektro lever in the shed if you want it. They sent me two of the one side

I have the Team Pro saddle, and I think the rails are the same length as the B17.

Anyway, look fwd to seeing some more irreverant discussions around here.

Wondered when you'd chime in
How do you feel about scruffy old buggas on bikes turning up your doorstep? Apart from a long overdue need to catch up, it'd be good to see the Tektro for real.

Richard

[europa]

Now, the product of this week's ponderings.

Wheels

Along with the frame, these are the heart of the bike.

I've noted recent evidence that aerodynamics have more effect on performance than weight. I've also noted where reduced rim weight is important.

I'm not racing (anyone else) so a few minutes off the time is not all that relevant.

However, this bike WILL be required to climb Expressway Hill and Flagstaff Hill, will be riding along the Expressway and hopefully will be adventuring in the Adelaide Hills. Note also that I live in a hilly area and any riding from my front door involves some for of climbing almost immediately. Essentially, I'll be building a climbing bike and this is one area where reduced rim weight does have marked value. I think I'm also right in suggesting that lighter rims help with cornering/handling as well.

Although I have a preference for Velocity, that's mainly because they're Australian. The wheels on offer from HIllbrick are the Gran Compes and a local wheel builder here makes very nice wheels using Alex rims.

The lightest rim that Velocity do is the Aerohead. I've had annecdotal evidence that these are strong enough for normal riding, but I'm a big bloke and ride on rough bike paths.
The Alex rims and the Gran Compe are both eyeletted and I see this as a plus (stronger). However, both these are heavier than the Aerohead by a reasonable margin.
That leaves the Velocity Fusion. It's deeper profile makes it a stronger rim than the Aerohead and, as a bonus, would be more aerodynamic than the Aerohead, Gran Compe and Alex (though Alex does deeper rims too). The Fusion wheel is also lighter than those wheels - Velocity seem to make a very nice product.

So the thinking at the moment is still to go with the Fusion.
There are, of course, countless other rims out there but I'm not able to go spending huge amounts of money on the wheels, so I'm sticking with the Aussie brand for the moment in that it'll give me a light and strong wheel.

Which leaves the question - do I buy a complete wheel or bring home a box of bits? I'm tempted to spec a different hub just so I can justify going with the box of bits

And yes, the MOST important thing about a wheel is how it's built.
Fortunately, I am quite prepared to take the box of bits, make a prize !! BAN ME NOW FOR SWEARING !! of building a wheel and then letting the wheel builder sort it out. Mind you, after 4,500 kms, the Deep V/Ultegra wheels I built for the Jamis are still true and tight ... and Michael's still talking to me after the wheel I built for him

Weight

Along with the above discussion, I'll be looking at keeping the weight down where possible, without going into weight weenie mode (which is why the discussion on wheels isn't as clear cut as I may have made it). The simple reasonning is that any mass on the bike has to be hauled up the hill. The converse is that I'll be sticking 100kg of useless human lump on top of this bike so all decisions will be made on a function before cost before weight basis, but all else being equal, lighter is better.

But I'm keeping the Brooks ... and the only plastic will be the covering on the brake cables (ie, none of that carbon fibre stuff, steel and alloy only ... and if you want a reason, put it down to curmugeonly stubborness).

Handlebars

Following discussions above and some internet investigation, I'm now reasonably confident I can get what I want, I just haven't nailed down where yet but haven't chased supply too hard because I don't know what the bike shop can get me - there's no point going mental on the internet if he can just flip open a catalogue.

Brakes

What brakes? (not Mulger's $400 jobs )

I'm starting to make some decisions based on real thinking (even if it is flawed).

The next line of investigation is the crankset ... and the pedals - not clipless, my lifestyle and riding leaves flat soled shoes the winner here so it's platforms and toe clips (White Industries make a very nice pedal ... at a price).

Feel free to chime in - it's always fun spending other people's money ... plus it's a great way of learning about this stuff.

Richard

[Mulger bill]

*huffy* Well if you won't take my advice on brakes, what's stopping you?

Serious options would be decent level Shamino or Campag. Avoid Tektro road callipers unless you really want your brakes to chatter like a teenage girl with her first mobile. Great V Brakes tho' FWIW

Rob at the LBS suggested the Fusion rims when I told him my weight and lack of desire to be just another DeepV pilot. He also knows that I'm a gutter jumper if that may help.

Miche track cranks look pretty good. If you want something harder maybe Truvativ?

Shaun

[europa]

*huffy* Well if you won't take my advice on brakes, what's stopping you?

Get as huffy as you like, I've got to pay for the stupid things

I appreciate your thoughts on Shimano and Campy. Any ideas on how good the DiaCompe range are nowadays?

I rather like the Shimano600 brakes on the Jamis - they work brilliantly and the grey colour provides a very nice but understated contrast to a dark frame colour. Sadly, they're on the Jamis and ain't moving from there (besides, I promised myself, no second hand bits on this bike ... and if you believe that, I've got a bridge I'd like to sell you )

I think the Fusions are a good choice. Some of the bike paths here are horrid and some of the roads even worse. I'm not a gutter jumper (too much of a woose) but I have been impressed with the Deep V's I built for the Jamis.

Truvativ better than Miche? That's a surprise to me ... and just goes to show how little I know about this stuff.

I have decided to go for 170mm cranks though. I had them on the Europa to start with with 172.5 on the Jamis. Although it isn't much, I always had this niggling feeling that the cranks on the Jamis were a bit long so when the Octalink cranks on the Jamis started to slip and eventually refused to stay tight, I replaced them with 170mm Hollowtech II - they feel spot on. Recently I replaced the 170's on the Europa with 165s and while I like them, can't help feeling I liked the 170's more, so this bike will have 170mm cranks. Funny how I'm getting fussy over such small differences, especially when you hear people talk about how they can't tell the difference, but I guess too many people on here have accused me of being 'funny' for me to complain too much.

Richard

[Crawf]

Switched from 105 brake levers (geared) to Tektro Aero Black RL340, I do prefer the 105's, more ergo and my fingers aren't touching metal internals. The Tektro's also feel slight more 'flimsy' under hard braking.
My bike also has Tektro R320 calipers, and these are equal in braking performance to 105/Rival calipers, could never tell the difference if blindfolded

[Mulger bill]

Having just Googled the Tektro 320s, I must say they look a damn sight beefier than the noodles I was running, maybe they've listened to feedback. Should be worth a look. Sorry, can't comment on DiaCompe due to a lack of recent experience.
If you're happy with the 600 brakes as fitted to the Jamis, methinks you may have answered your own question

I wouldn't necessarily say that Truvativ is better than Miche, just that starting as thay did with forged MTB cranks, they know how to build things tough.

[brauluver]

Having just Googled the Tektro 320s, I must say they look a damn sight beefier than the noodles I was running, maybe they've listened to feedback.

They are comparable to shimano IMHO.
Tektro have lifted their game with road stuff recently I think.
Still doesn't stop brand sneering though.

[aaron]

Aeroheads are strong enough for you and will be fine. I have two pairs that I ride on my fixed commuters.
I also have a Fusion built to a front wheel and it's fine.. They are a nice looking rim but they are heavier.

I reckon you're making too much of the weight issue.

[europa]

Well, the frame in North Adelaide cycles is too small, so it's time to start talking seriously with Paul Hillbrick about a custom frame
I've also got some firmer ideas on components
The price just went past
Still, my fiance approves

Richard

[europa]

Just to yank Mulger's chain a little ...

the latest chats (there've been a few) with Paul Hillbrick have resulted in his frame with basically Miche Advance bits. I've even weakened and gone for the Miche Xpress wheels even though they are a tad gawdy.

And it'll have a RACK
Yup, I'm not even pretending anymore, any bike good enough to enjoy will wind up doing commuting duties at some point (such as nice days rather than the rain we've had lately) and then there are the long, winter months when the lad is playing soccer and I ride to his matches ... and need something warm to put on. I do not like backpacks.

The frame has been slackened a little to avoid toe strike - it's a sports bike, not a racer and will be working in an urban environment so I'm sacrificing a little agility for peace of mind. This decision was heavily underlined the other day when I did a 'bolt across the traffic with a 90 degree turn in the gutter' on the Europa ... and noticed that my leading foot was not only horizontal but just behind the wheel, a situation where a toe strike could have seen me on my side in heavy traffic

Colour will be bottle green, whith chrome lugs ... maybe. Dunno what my styling co-ordinator (fiancee) will say about the wheels.

And the price?
(I need a howling smilie)

Yes, it's an expensive bike but it'll be doing a few miles here and there - my commute has been extended to 30 km (I could do it in 8 ) and the lad's soccer takes me all over the city, that's without just riding for the fun of it. Even done cheaply you'd be paying a lot for the bike so I'm doing it properly and getting a good quality bike.

And now I'm going to wash the road grime off the Europa, then go back to building my bike polo mount

Richard