Typical Knee Pain
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- sandman
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Typical Knee Pain
Postby sandman » Sat Mar 20, 2010 10:53 pm
Maybe the lesson is to spin, I just dont like spinning, never have and suspect I never will...
Sandman sitting on the couch eating an icecream to help ease the "self pity"
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Re: Typical Knee Pain
Postby Wayfarer » Sun Mar 21, 2010 1:29 pm
I hope you realise you take of faster on a lower gear, and once you're up to speed, you can pretty much spin whatever gear you want? its the super-pressure in the take-off phase which injures the most..
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Re: Typical Knee Pain
Postby brauluver » Sun Mar 21, 2010 3:35 pm
As much as you loathe spinning, maybe you should embrace it a little.
too much constant load on the knees and they will wear out, and you won't get the cartilage back once it's been sucked out.I'm missing 50% of mine in the left knee,and riding makes it feel better, providing I don't grind to much, or overdo it on the track.
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Re: Typical Knee Pain
Postby Hueber » Sun Mar 21, 2010 5:45 pm
I used to be a grinder & had the exact same problem as you which would show itself on longer rides (100km+). It took me a while to get used to it but now I spin & am so glad I changed, it improves your aerobic fitness & I feel it allows you to ride further with less fatigue. I never used to like it either but now I don't even think about it when riding, just need to give it a while for your body/aerobic fitness level to catch up.sandman wrote:Not sure if knee pain is typical but this one is sure self inflicted. A few days off to the bike due to pain under the left kneecap. All self inflicted due to the refusal to "spin". Pushing a 53-14/13 for the last 2 weeks has caused said knee to send enough pain to the brain to keep me off the bike for a week....
Maybe the lesson is to spin, I just dont like spinning, never have and suspect I never will...
Sandman sitting on the couch eating an icecream to help ease the "self pity"
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- ValleyForge
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Re: Typical Knee Pain
Postby ValleyForge » Sun Mar 21, 2010 9:05 pm
PF (patellofemoral) pain is right under the knee cap. Usually caused by unprepared quadriceps overwork. Fixes with a good physio program.
Tuberosity pain is below the knee cap where the tendon passes from the kneecap to the tibial tuberosity. Can be bursitis, and if you're not a teenager, then it's overuse. If you're a teenager then it can be a little more involved.
Pain along the joint-line, especially intermittent and with clicking is meniscal pain and this is medically sorted out.
If your knee locks sometimes, definite medical attention.
First step if there is recent injury is a plain Xray, otherwise an MRI scan.
- sandman
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Re: Typical Knee Pain
Postby sandman » Sun Mar 21, 2010 9:35 pm
thanks for all of your feedback. I know the exact reason for the pain, the silly pride of pushing a big gear I know Armstrong went from mashing to spinning and became a much better cyclist. I think the spinning would probably do my cardio the world of good....The pain in the knee was a little nasty as it lasted quite a few days, makes me think I should heed the warning
Cheers..Sandman
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Re: Typical Knee Pain
Postby Nedlam » Thu Mar 25, 2010 11:48 pm
Anyway the Doc took Bloods as i have MEN2 (medical cond. Para thyroids out). He belives it due to this (calcium levels) and maybe Physio session may help. I have 3 free visits left.
BTW whats spinning, it sounds silly to ask but to make sure i will ask.
Cheers
Dean
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Re: Typical Knee Pain
Postby BarryTas » Fri Mar 26, 2010 12:30 pm
Spinning is less taxing and the leg muscle but puts more strain on the heart and lungs.
The first thing my coach got me to do is to but a cadence speedo, and to boost my cadence....i have gone from a cadence of about 60 -70 to 80 - 90.
- ValleyForge
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Re: Typical Knee Pain
Postby ValleyForge » Fri Mar 26, 2010 12:43 pm
In a nutshell, when your leg muscles fully contract, effective blood flow in them stops. Spinning is designed to minimise this, so placing a greater flow load on your circulation. Better for aerobic fitness.BarryTas wrote:spinning is high cadence (leg revolutions) and easy gear, you focus a bit more on the up stroke.
Spinning is less taxing and the leg muscle but puts more strain on the heart and lungs.
The first thing my coach got me to do is to but a cadence speedo, and to boost my cadence....i have gone from a cadence of about 60 -70 to 80 - 90.
When out of the saddle, each downstroke stops blood flow momentarily in the muscle to a large degree. You reach anaerobic threshold earlier, and start to build lactic acid. This bulds tolerence, and the increased force required and hypoxia in the muscle increases local blood vessel development and myoglobin systhesis (the contracting bit).
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Re: Typical Knee Pain
Postby Flying Scotsman » Sat Mar 27, 2010 7:14 am
The pushing of big gears certainly strains the joints and the mechanical equipment too (all of the drive chain components)
Something which has not been mentioned here is the critical height adjustment of the saddle and also the adjustment fore and aft.
Most riders I meet are sitting too low on their bike and this does cause an increase in tension within the knee, as the leg is never staight enough to allow the knee to relax. Worth checking this one out too. Does the pain disappear when you get off the saddle, to climb for example, if yes I would suggest an increase in saddle height.
Cleat position is another area to check, are the cleats new or worn out, is there any grit caught in the cleat or in the pedal mechanisim which may interfere with your normal alignment.
Hope this gives you some more clues.
Cheers
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Re: Typical Knee Pain
Postby AUbicycles » Sat Apr 10, 2010 7:57 am
Just showing a bit of support of this notion - I recently read an article that attributed a large number of knee injuries to incorrect (suboptimal) cleat positioning - together with footware. While I can't share personal experience / problems in this respect, it it worth investigating.Flying Scotsman wrote:Cleat position is another area to check
- foo on patrol
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Re: Typical Knee Pain
Postby foo on patrol » Sun Apr 11, 2010 5:35 pm
I know when I go for a ride, and push a bigger gear than normal, for some extra effort, my knees will let me know, if I have over stepped the mark, with to much of a big gear.
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- ValleyForge
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Re: Typical Knee Pain
Postby ValleyForge » Sun Apr 11, 2010 6:42 pm
Mostly too much toe in causing anterior (kneecap) pain.AUbicycles wrote:Just showing a bit of support of this notion - I recently read an article that attributed a large number of knee injuries to incorrect (suboptimal) cleat positioning - together with footware. While I can't share personal experience / problems in this respect, it it worth investigating.Flying Scotsman wrote:Cleat position is another area to check
FWIW: Pushing bigger gears doesn't wear out your knees - it places more stress on the joint surface behind the kneecap and therefore pain. A series of quads intensive exercises almost always solves the problem.
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Re: Typical Knee Pain
Postby pixola » Fri Apr 16, 2010 6:58 pm
My current riding style is a cadence average of about 75-80rpm when riding solo (avg speed of about 31km/h)
Are there any specific exercises can help me to increase my "natural" cadence ?
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Re: Typical Knee Pain
Postby ando » Tue Jul 27, 2010 12:31 am
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Re: Typical Knee Pain
Postby Dizz » Tue Jul 27, 2010 8:14 am
+1, I while back I neglected my weekly quad training routine (weights) for about six weeks; the result was a slight decrease in average speeds and the onset of knee pain ; after resuming my weight training everything returned to normal.ValleyForge wrote:....FWIW: Pushing bigger gears doesn't wear out your knees - it places more stress on the joint surface behind the kneecap and therefore pain. A series of quads intensive exercises almost always solves the problem.
Therefore, it is clear that not all knee pain has to do with the geometrical relationship between you and your bike; in my case I always spin in the saddle (typical average cadence is about 105rpm) but if you have fallen out of form and are spinning big gears you will still end up with knee pain.
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Re: Typical Knee Pain
Postby Wayfarer » Tue Jul 27, 2010 8:34 pm
I dont get that. Quad intensive exercises would put more stress on the joint surface as well, no? since you're putting enough weight on the knees to have a weight session, it'll load the knee more? How is it any different?ValleyForge wrote:FWIW: Pushing bigger gears doesn't wear out your knees - it places more stress on the joint surface behind the kneecap and therefore pain. A series of quads intensive exercises almost always solves the problem.
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Re: Typical Knee Pain
Postby Nobody » Tue Jul 27, 2010 10:48 pm
I believe it is more about strengthening the leg muscles with reduces the stress on your knee as the muscles provide more support for your knee. Having said it's just what I've heard. I have no expertise in this area at all.Wayfarer wrote:I dont get that. Quad intensive exercises would put more stress on the joint surface as well, no? since you're putting enough weight on the knees to have a weight session, it'll load the knee more? How is it any different?
I've recently been trying squats with dumbells and it seems to be working. Less knee pain in general.
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Re: Typical Knee Pain
Postby foo on patrol » Wed Jul 28, 2010 8:26 am
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Re: Typical Knee Pain
Postby Wayfarer » Wed Jul 28, 2010 7:24 pm
haha sorry if i put you on the spot there.. But I think it might just be urban tales, since we're pushing such a low load on the bike, and such a high load on the squats, but still strengthening the knees..Nobody wrote:I believe it is more about strengthening the leg muscles with reduces the stress on your knee as the muscles provide more support for your knee. Having said it's just what I've heard. I have no expertise in this area at all.Wayfarer wrote:I dont get that. Quad intensive exercises would put more stress on the joint surface as well, no? since you're putting enough weight on the knees to have a weight session, it'll load the knee more? How is it any different?
I've recently been trying squats with dumbells and it seems to be working. Less knee pain in general.
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Re: Typical Knee Pain
Postby Nobody » Thu Jul 29, 2010 8:21 am
True, could be urban tales.Wayfarer wrote:haha sorry if i put you on the spot there.. But I think it might just be urban tales, since we're pushing such a low load on the bike, and such a high load on the squats, but still strengthening the knees..
I've read that running and cycling work the outside leg muscles mainly which is supposed to put a strain on the knee. Doing other weight bearing exercise is supposed to give more balance by strengthening the inner muscles of the leg also. (Once again, could be tales. I'm not expert.)
Yes we cycle at low relative load but the angle of the leg at that load and the extremely high repetition rate may not be helpful if the biological structure and fit isn't perfect to start with, which in my case obviously isn't.
I think I'll try Foo's idea and raise my saddle a bit. My saddle is still a bit lower than in my racing days, although my cranks are shorter too.
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Re: Typical Knee Pain
Postby ando » Thu Jul 29, 2010 10:34 pm
I am probably showing my age, but when I rode a lot, many years ago, it was all on conventional racing peddles of the era - toe clips and straps. Now of course I, like almost everyone else, am riding on the new style. I can't help but observe that on these modern peddles there is not much peddle under the foot for support, and this fact combined with the floating nature of the cleat somehow makes my feet feel like they are kind of 'searching' for a solid base. When I compare that feeling to the old days when we would really strap in hard like we were getting ready to go to the moon. It was sometimes a bit painful over a long period but I think there was a greater sense of solid support under and around the foot.
What do others think about this?
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Re: Typical Knee Pain
Postby trailgumby » Thu Jul 29, 2010 10:53 pm
having never used straps and clips it's hard for me to compare, but I have to say I quite like mtb clipless pedals to the point that I feel quite insecure with flat pedals. I can understand you might feel like you don't have a solid base, but expect you will get used to them with time.
I came from the opposite end - as a beginner, being clipped in made me very nervous about not being able to get my foot out in time, and that negatively impacted my confidence riding off-road trails which significantly slowed my skill acquisition. It took awhile, but now I am more than fine with them and they have been my clear preference for a few years.
SPD-SL, Look Keo and Speedplay pedals are much better for foot stability than mtb pedals as the cleat/platform is bigger and there is no reliance on the side edges of the shoe sole to provide lateral stability - which can be impacted by wear - so I think they will suit you better. Speedplay is apparently very popular woth TdF pros and the engineering of the overall package looks like it might provide a larger effective platform (contrary to initial impressions of the tiny-looking pedal), so if you already use road-style pedals, these might be worth investigating.
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Re: Typical Knee Pain
Postby Wayfarer » Fri Jul 30, 2010 12:11 am
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Re: Typical Knee Pain
Postby ando » Sat Jul 31, 2010 12:33 am
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