Adding a front disc to a road bike !! And Now Hydro!

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Adding a front disc to a road bike !! And Now Hydro!

Postby MichaelB » Fri Aug 13, 2010 3:58 pm

Well, after much discussion, watching others, and a few panic braking moves in the wet at night, the decison was taken to add a front disc to my '07 Argon18 Platinum road bike.

After much discussion re the effects of putting on a fork with different dimensions here and some tinkering in BikeCad, I purchased this Mosso Alloy Disc fork for the princely sum of $65 delivered.
The Axle/Crown height is about 25mm longer, but it will do the job of proving whether the effect is big enough to warrant something that is closer to the correct length (a custom Woundup Team X Disc at a pricey USD$475).

I sourced a Magura front hub (relabelled DT Swiss 240s allegedly - weighs the same, looks the same and has the same dimensions) for $35 delivered.

After some more investigation, I decided to give the new Velocity A23 rims a burl, as they were locally made, and similarish in price to a pair of Open Pro's (which I already use). They have a good rap, so why not. They have been ordered from the LBS at $100 a pop.

Spokes, DT Competition (2.0/1.8/2.0) will come from starbike.com, as even with a shipping charge of about 30 euro, they are still heaps cheaper.

The headset (after much teeth gnashing and a bit of wailing - read here), followed the recommendation from Cane Creek and purchased the IS-3 (short) - but it is out of stock :roll: .

At the same time, I ordered the Avid BB7 Road setup, which is also out of stock :roll: .

Overall, the setup should cost me about $410 in total.

One could easily argue that I should just buy a 2010 Kona Honky Inc for $2299 and be done with it, but where is the fun in that .... :twisted:

Standby to standby for some pics and details once all the bits come in :D
Last edited by MichaelB on Tue Sep 21, 2010 9:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
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by BNA » Fri Aug 13, 2010 6:32 pm

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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !!

Postby Nobody » Fri Aug 13, 2010 6:32 pm

MichaelB wrote:One could easily argue that I should just buy a 2010 Kona Honky Inc for $2299 and be done with it, but where is the fun in that ...
+1
I think many undervalue the learning experience.

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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !!

Postby Mulger bill » Fri Aug 13, 2010 6:48 pm

Definitely want to see this one finished, sounds good Michael. :)

Nobody, is that a pitlock I spy? Wanna tell us more?

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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !!

Postby Nobody » Fri Aug 13, 2010 7:02 pm

Mulger bill wrote:Nobody, is that a pitlock I spy? Wanna tell us more?
Hi Shaun,
I was going to try commuting to work on a semi-regular basis but then moved work sites soon after. Which of course is further and move difficult to ride to. Anyway, I'm not currently using them. I got them to make locking my bike quicker at work. I have the set for the wheels and headset keyed alike. I got them from Bike24. Is there anything specific you want to know about them?
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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !!

Postby il padrone » Fri Aug 13, 2010 7:17 pm

While I know you've already committed to this, and no doubt done some research, some time back I read this page about one manufacturers design choices, including why they do not do rigid steel disc forks

St John Street Cycles wrote:Please don’t ask for a disc brake on steel forks, we simply won’t do it! We use raked blades, these are exceptionally comfortable, they will withstand the forces of cycling (and have done so for generations) but raked forks will not withstand the forces generated by a disc brake, which are very different to the forces generated by V brakes, even at the same rate of retardation. We have seen 3 ways that other manufacturers have “accomplished” this, they all seem stupid to us
(1) We have had customers complain that a well known custom builder’s raked steel forks have permanently bent under braking.
(2) We have seen hideously uncomfortable, thick walled, straight blades used by another manufacturer, these forks don’t fail, but I expect that an owner’s hands and elbows soon would!
(3) The most ridiculous “solution” of all, is a heavy left blade and lighter right blade. The different blades must have different elastic properties (isn’t that supposed to be the point?) and therefore the axle must twist, when a bump is hit. If the axle twists, then so must the front wheel. If the front wheel twists, then the bike consequently alters course.
Isn’t hitting bumps comfortably and safely the main function of a bicycle’s fork? Why compromise comfort and safety, in order to fit a brake, which is inferior, in the conditions that the steel fork will be used in?


It's just an item of interest, and a question or two you might want to ask of any rigid, disc-equipped fork manufacturer.
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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !!

Postby Nobody » Fri Aug 13, 2010 7:40 pm

St John Street Cycles wrote:Why compromise comfort and safety, in order to fit a brake, which is inferior, in the conditions that the steel fork will be used in?
With my MTB I never noticed the difference going from a rigid steel V brake fork (Giant ATX) to a rigid steel disc brake fork (Surly 1 X 1). I think tyre pressure makes more difference.

With the road bike I changed the tyres at the same time from 23 to 32mm so I can't comment. I can't see the safety argument as the reason I changed is for safety in the wet. I weight 80Kg and often to endos for braking practice. Even though my forks are cheap, I'd still be very surprised if they failed doing this or anything else.

However I would say that disc brakes work quick release skewers loose as it has happened to me. So it is worth checking the skewers regularly.
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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !!

Postby Mulger bill » Fri Aug 13, 2010 8:12 pm

Nobody wrote:Hi Shaun,
I was going to try commuting to work on a semi-regular basis but then moved work sites soon after. Which of course is further and move difficult to ride to. Anyway, I'm not currently using them. I got them to make locking my bike quicker at work. I have the set for the wheels and headset keyed alike. I got them from Bike24. Is there anything specific you want to know about them?


Thanks for answering Nobody, I'm wondering mainly ease of use. Do I have to carry a spanner or can the holes in the pit be used with a breaker bar? If so, how long a breaker bar would be needed?
Also, as you mentioned, discs seem to make QRs loosen off, have you noticed this as an issue with pitlocks?

Thanks
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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !!

Postby Nobody » Fri Aug 13, 2010 9:04 pm

Pitlock keys' hole will allow you to use a 5mm Allen key to open/close them.

As for Pitlocks being shaken loose, I believe they were being shaken loose too. But I didn't have them on for a long time. I believe all skewers would be shaken loose eventually. At least on my bikes. I even had the front wheel hub lock_nut come loose on my MTB the other day.
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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !!

Postby Mulger bill » Fri Aug 13, 2010 9:19 pm

Thanks Nobody, sounds safer than the BBB wheelfixed I run.

Better go measure the OLN on me commuter...

Cheers
Shaun
[/threadjack] Sorry Michael.
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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !!

Postby jacks1071 » Sat Aug 14, 2010 10:41 am

MichaelB wrote:Well, after much discussion, watching others, and a few panic braking moves in the wet at night, the decison was taken to add a front disc to my '07 Argon18 Platinum road bike.

After much discussion re the effects of putting on a fork with different dimensions here and some tinkering in BikeCad, I purchased this Mosso Alloy Disc fork for the princely sum of $65 delivered.
The Axle/Crown height is about 25mm longer, but it will do the job of proving whether the effect is big enough to warrant something that is closer to the correct length (a custom Woundup Team X Disc at a pricey USD$475).

I sourced a Magura front hub (relabelled DT Swiss 240s allegedly - weighs the same, looks the same and has the same dimensions) for $35 delivered.

After some more investigation, I decided to give the new Velocity A23 rims a burl, as they were locally made, and similarish in price to a pair of Open Pro's (which I already use). They have a good rap, so why not. They have been ordered from the LBS at $100 a pop.

Spokes, DT Competition (2.0/1.8/2.0) will come from starbike.com, as even with a shipping charge of about 30 euro, they are still heaps cheaper.

The headset (after much teeth gnashing and a bit of wailing - read here), followed the recommendation from Cane Creek and purchased the IS-3 (short) - but it is out of stock :roll: .

At the same time, I ordered the Avid BB7 Road setup, which is also out of stock :roll: .

Overall, the setup should cost me about $410 in total.

One could easily argue that I should just buy a 2010 Kona Honky Inc for $2299 and be done with it, but where is the fun in that .... :twisted:

Standby to standby for some pics and details once all the bits come in :D


So now instead of running out of brakes you'll run out of road grip? This is a cool project - but I think you would have been better served by trying some decent quality brake pads.
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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !!

Postby Rek » Sat Aug 14, 2010 2:38 pm

I went from 105 calipers with Koolstop Salmon pads to BB7s, wet braking is considerably better. Absolute braking power has increased, scrubbing speed requires much less hand pressure. It's nice being able to grab both brakes in the rain and know the bike will still pull up hard.
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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !!

Postby Nobody » Sat Aug 14, 2010 7:58 pm

jacks1071 wrote:So now instead of running out of brakes you'll run out of road grip? This is a cool project - but I think you would have been better served by trying some decent quality brake pads.
I think he'll be best served with a disc. Especially in the wet. I'd rather run out of grip rather than run out of road because I had to wait for my rim brakes to work.

I've been a fan of good V brakes off-road for some time, but after a long period of wet whether I got tired of wearing my rims away. So I folded and got a disc on the front. It's great to be able to pull that lever and know what retardation I'm going to get, regardless of how wet the trail is.

http://www.mtbr.com/discbrakesfaqcrx.aspx#general
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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !!

Postby Mulger bill » Sat Aug 14, 2010 8:16 pm

Nobody wrote:I'd rather run out of grip rather than run out of road because I had to wait for my rim brakes to work.

I hear yer brother. Me first seriously wet commute on a rim braked roadie convinced me to look at disc options. Downhill to a blind roundabout. Brown trouser action...
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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !!

Postby MichaelB » Sun Aug 15, 2010 7:14 pm

jacks1071 wrote:
So now instead of running out of brakes you'll run out of road grip? This is a cool project - but I think you would have been better served by trying some decent quality brake pads.


I think that that is a short sighted opinion.

I have been running DA7800 brakes with Salmon Kool Stop pads, and whilst they work great ONCE the film of water is wiped away, until then, they are crap. But better than the std DA pads.

I alo think that I have enough nouse and feeling that I can capably modulate the braking force to not lock the wheels, also, hence why I have tried the Velocity A23 rims, as one of the benefits is a 'rounder' profile, which theoritically should give better contact patch dynamics. Or so I tell myslef.

I'll keep people appraised and add some pics as I go.

As I mentioned, it's a bit of a fiddling project, as I'm like that.

At the end of the day, if it's no good, I can put it back the way it was with learnings shared amongst many, and a few bucks lighter in the wallet, but much richer for trying and not listening to all the naysayers, who sometimes don't know what they are talking about.


As an aside, the Mosso fork seems to be quite well made, but the extra cown length is quite noticeable, and one way to compensate at the front end in terms of body setup will be to flip the stem - quite easy to do, and to reverse again if necessary.

The big thing is I have to wait until the rims arrive (on their way from Velocity on Friday :D ), the caliper and headset to come into stock at Wiggle :? ), and then for me to order the spokes from starbike.

Oh, and the missus has a big b'day coming up, so gotta make sure funds are available for that :roll:

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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !!

Postby MichaelB » Mon Aug 16, 2010 12:31 pm

Headset is on it's way from the UK now, just waiting on the brake calipers and spokes.

Took some pics, but Image shack playing silly buggers from the home computer :twisted:
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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !!

Postby MichaelB » Tue Aug 17, 2010 9:56 am

OK, here are some pics. 1st one is the fork taped roughly in position. It's the right colout at least, so will look OK to start with.

Image

2nd pic is a close-up of the extra axle-crown height. Just a weee bit ....

Image

It's about 30mm extra
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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !!

Postby jacks1071 » Wed Aug 18, 2010 12:09 am

Mulger bill wrote:
Nobody wrote:I'd rather run out of grip rather than run out of road because I had to wait for my rim brakes to work.

I hear yer brother. Me first seriously wet commute on a rim braked roadie convinced me to look at disc options. Downhill to a blind roundabout. Brown trouser action...


We don't have much hills up here so sometimes I forget where you guys ride everyday :-)

Running good pads though and keeping the rim clean I can't say I've found myself wanting for more brakes.

What I would say - if you goto this extra braking power make sure you put a tyre on that has good wet-weather grip like a Vredstein tri-comp.
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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !!

Postby MichaelB » Wed Aug 18, 2010 8:26 am

jacks1071 wrote:
What I would say - if you goto this extra braking power make sure you put a tyre on that has good wet-weather grip like a Vredstein tri-comp.


I think somehow this extra braking power that is uncontrollable is a fallacy. I think it's called modulation. 8) If I'm wrong, I'll admit it, but feedback from others suggest that I'll be OK.

Have you ridden a road bike with discs ?

Re the tyres with grip - currently I'm running Hutchinson Intensive Tubeless and have had no problems with grip (wet or dry) when braking pretty hard even downhill.

It's still all academic any at the moment, as the BB7 calipers are not yet in stock at Wiggle, and the LBS hasn't rung re the A23 rims being in yet either :roll: . Will have to follow them up.

And to top it off, the digi scales have packed it in :?
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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !!

Postby drubie » Wed Aug 18, 2010 9:36 am

MichaelB wrote:OK, here are some pics. 1st one is the fork taped roughly in position. It's the right colout at least, so will look OK to start with.
...
It's about 30mm extra


My first reaction to that picture was: you're crazy. Then, I had another look at the bike I rode to work on this morning and realised I didn't even KNOW what the fork length / crown height / rake should be on my frame and it worked out fine - great even.

Then, well, I started thinking that my bike really needs a disk brake :D

So, I'm interested too in how this works out now that disks are legal in cyclocross.
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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !!

Postby MichaelB » Wed Aug 18, 2010 10:19 am

drubie wrote:
My first reaction to that picture was: you're crazy. ...


Yes, that too......

I guess the other thing is that I am not a pro that races in crits or can descend like a stone, so even though the handling characteristics MAY be affected by quite a bit, the $64 question is

"do I ride the bike in that part of the handling envelope to really notice ?"

I somehow doubt it, but I'll hopefully find out soon ....
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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !!

Postby drubie » Wed Aug 18, 2010 2:09 pm

MichaelB wrote:"do I ride the bike in that part of the handling envelope to really notice ?"

I somehow doubt it, but I'll hopefully find out soon ....


You might be surprised - that Argon is a pretty handy bit of kit.

I notice a big difference in the cornering speeds of my carbon Orbea compared to the converted MTB-Cyclocross bike. You just can't flick that alloy frame/fat tyred thing around like a road bike, although how much of that is big, heavy 37mm tyres and how much is the compromised geometry I couldn't say. I've found myself heading into corners carrying a lot of speed where the Orbea would hold a tight line and find the cyclocross bike heading for the gutter. Then again, I can't take my hands off the bars of the Orbea (it's just to fidgety) where you can ride the cyclocross bike like a unicycle it's so stable.

It might be a wheelbase thing too though - the cyclocross bike is noticeably longer.
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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !!

Postby jacks1071 » Wed Aug 18, 2010 10:42 pm

MichaelB wrote:
drubie wrote:
My first reaction to that picture was: you're crazy. ...


Yes, that too......

I guess the other thing is that I am not a pro that races in crits or can descend like a stone, so even though the handling characteristics MAY be affected by quite a bit, the $64 question is

"do I ride the bike in that part of the handling envelope to really notice ?"

I somehow doubt it, but I'll hopefully find out soon ....


I take back my disc comments - I want one of these so very, very much!!

http://www.co-motion.com/single_bikes/amerohloff.html

This has nothing to do with the braking performance though! Hot hot does that look?
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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !!

Postby dirty_harry » Thu Aug 19, 2010 9:24 pm

the bike on co-motion is quite cool however im not to sure on the colour scheme, the bluey grey doesnt go with the brown. But why oh why did they have to stick an adult toy on the end of the nicely finished drop bar :twisted: :twisted: :lol:
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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !!

Postby jacks1071 » Fri Aug 20, 2010 10:21 pm

dirty_harry wrote:the bike on co-motion is quite cool however im not to sure on the colour scheme, the bluey grey doesnt go with the brown. But why oh why did they have to stick an adult toy on the end of the nicely finished drop bar :twisted: :twisted: :lol:


Yeah I'm not sure about the brown bits...

My road tandem showed up today - very nice 700c carbon fork fitted with disc brake mount! Unfortunately the fork is a once-off at this point in time.

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Re: Adding a front disc to a road bike !!

Postby Nobody » Sat Aug 21, 2010 9:14 am

jacks1071 wrote:My road tandem showed up today - very nice 700c carbon fork fitted with disc brake mount! Unfortunately the fork is a once-off at this point in time.
Carbon, disc, tandem and quick release. Do the fork dropouts point down as well? Make sure you check the quick release tension regularly as it will likely shake loose quite fast. They do on mine.
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