http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/g ... ire-profitLondon's bike hire scheme is on course to become the only Transport for London (TfL) system to make an operating profit, just 10 weeks after its launch.
Setting up the bike hire scheme is set to cost £140m over six years. TfL expect it will cover its operating costs within two to three years and will then be able to contribute to its implementation costs.
Melbourne city bike share
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Re: Melbourne city bike share
Postby lethoso » Thu Oct 14, 2010 9:13 pm
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Re: Melbourne city bike share
Postby Aushiker » Fri Oct 15, 2010 3:56 pm
Hilethoso wrote:meanwhile, in London:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/g ... ire-profitLondon's bike hire scheme is on course to become the only Transport for London (TfL) system to make an operating profit, just 10 weeks after its launch.
Setting up the bike hire scheme is set to cost £140m over six years. TfL expect it will cover its operating costs within two to three years and will then be able to contribute to its implementation costs.
Interesting that they used the term operating profit ....
Andrew
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Re: Melbourne city bike share
Postby human909 » Fri Oct 15, 2010 4:22 pm
Yes I found that interesting too. Not as impressive as one would hope if you are in favour of a free market. Still an operating profit is better than a loss. Furthermore most transport is heavily subsidised anyway so that needs to be kept in perspective.Aushiker wrote: Hi
Interesting that they used the term operating profit ....
Andrew
Furthermore most start up businesses take much longer to make an operating profit than 10 weeks. Give it a few years and there is a good chance that it will start making a financial profit.
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Re: Melbourne city bike share
Postby jules21 » Fri Oct 15, 2010 4:45 pm
what's the difference between operating and financial profit? by the latter, do you mean - operate in the black?human909 wrote:Furthermore most start up businesses take much longer to make an operating profit than 10 weeks. Give it a few years and there is a good chance that it will start making a financial profit.
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Re: Melbourne city bike share
Postby human909 » Fri Oct 15, 2010 5:42 pm
By financial profit I mean pay for your cost of capital as well.jules21 wrote:what's the difference between operating and financial profit? by the latter, do you mean - operate in the black?human909 wrote:Furthermore most start up businesses take much longer to make an operating profit than 10 weeks. Give it a few years and there is a good chance that it will start making a financial profit.
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Re: Melbourne city bike share
Postby Westgarth » Sun Oct 17, 2010 1:16 pm
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Re: Melbourne city bike share
Postby human909 » Sun Oct 17, 2010 2:02 pm
This is a self referential argument. You can't justify running at a loss simply because other projects run at a loss!!!!! The only reason why railways can't make a profit is that they compete against road transport which is already HEAVILY subsidised! (think the cost of roads) Railroads were normally quite profitable before the advent of the motor car.Westgarth wrote:It's like a lot of major infrastructure projects, rail is a good example, they may (do) run at a small loss, or a big loss, but you have to factor in the huge investment to build them in the first place. I was discussing the merits of building a railway extension somewhere and while the fact that 'it will run at a loss' will come up, you can point out that all passenger rail services run at a loss but it is more a matter of where you choose to put the ones that you will build.
An investment should ONLY be undertake if the benefits outweigh the costs. This should be common sense. In the case of a private profit making enterprise the benefits and costs considered are normally only the direct (normally monetary) cost/benefits received by the enterprise. In the case of a Government then often the benefits can be non monetary as the government has the luxury of including social benefits in their cost-benefit calculations.
Strong arguments could be made in favour of subsidising Bikeshare to the extend that it only makes an operating profit not a financial one. However the argument becomes VERY thin when the marginal profit of a user buying a helmet and going for a ride becomes NEGATIVE! This is precisely what the helmet subsidy does! The government is essentially PAYING people to use the system!
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Re: Melbourne city bike share
Postby Westgarth » Sun Oct 17, 2010 4:04 pm
The benefits of mass transit are fairly self-evident, like the benefit of public hospitals and schools. Yet they cannot be conjured out of thin air. The point I was making is that we need these things, and saying that a railway line (or a freeway, or a desalination plant) will run at a loss isn't a terribly strong arguement against building it. The argument should be about where and when the thing is built rather than whether it will start generating a profit.
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Re: Melbourne city bike share
Postby il padrone » Sun Oct 17, 2010 4:45 pm
Speaking from an economic viewpoint, the argument is about the net benefits, and they are measured in dollar terms. But this is more than just operating costs, establishment costs and revenue. We need to apportion a value to the social benefits provided by such ventures, and also measure the social and environmental costs of establishing and running them. Taking account of all costs and all benefits will give us a net benefit measure.Westgarth wrote: The argument should be about where and when the thing is built rather than whether it will start generating a profit.
There's little point in running a bikeshare scheme, or rail system, if there is going to be an overall negative net impact for the community. It's going to cause more harms than the benefits it brings. Dumb decision - think Melbourne Grand Prix, of dubious value.
In the case of Melbourne's Bikeshare, it will have relatively few social/environmental costs, but if successfully adopted, significant social benfits (lower congestion, health and exercise, development of a greater bicycle/pedestrian transport culture) and environmental benefits(lower vehicle emissions, lower CO2 emitted). This may well be sufficient to outweigh any financial losses, maybe even make it worthwhile to virtually "pay people to use it" through a subsidy of helmet prices.
But much better to generate even greater use of the scheme by doing away with the helmet compulsion altogether.
"An unjustified and unethical imposition on a healthy activity."
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Re: Melbourne city bike share
Postby human909 » Sun Oct 17, 2010 6:34 pm
You missed the point. I wasn't suggesting trains are obsolete (like the horse and carriage). I was suggesting that trains are now competing against other heavily subsidised forms of transport.Westgarth wrote:Yes, horse and carriage passenger services were also quite profitable before the motor car. Back in the day sedan chairs were all the rage too. But humanity has moved on.
Actually it is a damn good start. You can't justify project just by saying we 'need' them The desalination plant for example is a gross waste of public money, there are FAR FAR cheaper ways to supply water to Melbourne. Victoria's desalination plant is a white elephant. And don't get me started on the NBN, there the government's failure to do a cost benefits study is abysmal.Westgarth wrote:The point I was making is that we need these things, and saying that a railway line (or a freeway, or a desalination plant) will run at a loss isn't a terribly strong arguement against building it.
You sound like a politician. Skipping the need to justify projects and just looking at the political consequences. Now don't get me wrong. I am not arguing that every government project needs to make a profit. But the social benefits need to be clear. For example in a rich country like Australia subsidising water supply only results excessive usage.Westgarth wrote:The argument should be about where and when the thing is built rather than whether it will start generating a profit.
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Re: Melbourne city bike share
Postby martinjs » Sun Oct 17, 2010 11:40 pm
Population
- London
- Density 12,450/sq mi (4,807/km2)
- Metro 12,300,000 to 13,945,000 Million
-Area 607 sq mi (1,572.1 km2)
Population:
- Melbourne 4.00 million (Metropolitan area)
- Density 1566/km² (4,055.9/sq mi)
- Area: 8806 km² (3,400.0 sq mi) (LGAs total)
Make of it what you want, seems London is physically smaller and has a higher population.
Martin
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Re: Melbourne city bike share
Postby martinjs » Sun Oct 17, 2010 11:44 pm
- Dublin 1,661,185 Million
- Density 4,398/km2 (11,390.8/sq mi)
- Urban 921 km2 (355.6 sq mi)
Ok Dublin has a smaller population but by golly it's tiny and appears to have a higher density.
Martin
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Re: Melbourne city bike share
Postby lethoso » Sun Oct 17, 2010 11:57 pm
That's a bit misleading though - Melbourne is ridiculously large compared to London, but that's mostly irrelevant to a scheme which only services the CBD. It'd be better to compare numbers living/working in the city centres - but finding the data for that would be harder.martinjs wrote:Population
- London
-Area 607 sq mi (1,572.1 km2)
Population:
- Melbourne
- Area: 8806 km² (3,400.0 sq mi) (LGAs total)
Make of it what you want, seems London is physically smaller and has a higher population.
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Re: Melbourne city bike share
Postby martinjs » Mon Oct 18, 2010 12:08 am
Lets get real here, we keep comparing smaller( in size only) cities with spread out cities. The only true comparison would be same or close to same as possible.
Martin
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Re: Melbourne city bike share
Postby Mulger bill » Mon Oct 18, 2010 12:35 am
Maybe, but reading Lesotho's post and checking out the map shows an effective catchment of what? a roughly three km radius from the GPO. How does that compare to overseas schemes? I'm basing my estimated catchment on a reasonable half hour travel distance.martinjs wrote:Lets get real here, we keep comparing smaller( in size only) cities with spread out cities. The only true comparison would be same or close to same as possible.
Martin
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Re: Melbourne city bike share
Postby human909 » Mon Oct 18, 2010 12:40 am
Would it make a financial profit? Probably not, but it certainly could make a sensible operating profit. At the moment it is a mere curiosity.
That map actually surprises me. They are almost sensibly spaced. Part of the problem of expanding the catchment area is that it is only a City of Melbourne thing. This thing could easily be expanded into Yarra (highest proportion of cyclist commuters in Australia).Mulger bill wrote:Maybe, but reading Lesotho's post and checking out the map shows an effective catchment of what? a roughly three km radius from the GPO. How does that compare to overseas schemes? I'm basing my estimated catchment on a reasonable half hour travel distance.
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Re: Melbourne city bike share
Postby martinjs » Mon Oct 18, 2010 11:33 am
The trouble with this debate is people are speculating, pure and simple.
To compare one scheme exactly with another is not possible, but in earlier post that's exacly what they were doing.
London City only
Population (mid-2008 est)
- Total 7,900 Million
- Density 7,055.5/sq mi (2,724.1/km2)
Gee wiz fellas that's just the city of London not the Metro, take out of it what you will.
Martin
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Re: Melbourne city bike share
Postby human909 » Mon Oct 18, 2010 12:58 pm
Um, yeah you did.martinjs wrote:Hey I didn't start comparing Melbourne with other countries. Others did that but only included the imformation they wanted to. All I'm doing is trying to show some more information so people can make proper comparisions.
So whats your point. Nobody is doubting that Melbourne is smaller than London!? I'm all a bit lost on what your argument is?martinjs wrote: The trouble with this debate is people are speculating, pure and simple.
To compare one scheme exactly with another is not possible, but in earlier post that's exacly what they were doing.
London City only
Population (mid-2008 est)
- Total 7,900 Million
- Density 7,055.5/sq mi (2,724.1/km2)
Gee wiz fellas that's just the city of London not the Metro, take out of it what you will.
Martin
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Re: Melbourne city bike share
Postby martinjs » Mon Oct 18, 2010 1:18 pm
I'm just presenting all the facts instead of just the one's people choose to show.
Whys it ok to present facts and figures to support a point of view even if those figures are been taken out of context?
I hope Melbourne's bike share works, but comparing apples with oranges can give people the wrong impression. I don't believe the helmet issue alone is the problem.
So to even things up I am presenting some more facts to help the undecided to decide.
Simple
Martin
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Re: Melbourne city bike share
Postby il padrone » Tue Oct 19, 2010 8:29 pm
Denver Metro pop'n - ~3.9 million
Denver pop' density - ~1700 people per square km.
Pretty much like Melbourne, a dispersed suburban city. The one key difference is they don't have a helmet compulsion law. Bit of a different response, huh?
As compared to Melbourne's 150 hires per dayThe program, which has expanded to include 43 stations and 420 bicycles, is averaging 700-1,000 rides per day.
"An unjustified and unethical imposition on a healthy activity."
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Re: Melbourne city bike share
Postby human909 » Wed Oct 20, 2010 12:06 am
I can scarcely believe that! Denver is a total car orientated city! Still 700 rides isn't much but it is still alot better than Melbourne! Wow!il padrone wrote:Well, keep your eyes out for any info on Denver's B-cycle bikeshare scheme.
Denver Metro pop'n - ~3.9 million
Denver pop' density - ~1700 people per square km.
Pretty much like Melbourne, a dispersed suburban city. The one key difference is they don't have a helmet compulsion law. Bit of a different response, huh?
As compared to Melbourne's 150 hires per dayThe program, which has expanded to include 43 stations and 420 bicycles, is averaging 700-1,000 rides per day.
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Re: Melbourne city bike share
Postby martinjs » Wed Oct 20, 2010 10:19 am
As for tourist doesn't Melbourne have that free city loop tram that runs all day? They'd all be competition for the Bike share program.
Martin
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Re: Melbourne city bike share
Postby high_tea » Wed Oct 20, 2010 11:37 am
Correlation doesn't necessarily imply causation. Where else has bikeshare + MHLs been tried? There's Brisbane, but it only started this month...il padrone wrote:Well, keep your eyes out for any info on Denver's B-cycle bikeshare scheme.
Denver Metro pop'n - ~3.9 million
Denver pop' density - ~1700 people per square km.
Pretty much like Melbourne, a dispersed suburban city. The one key difference is they don't have a helmet compulsion law. Bit of a different response, huh?
As compared to Melbourne's 150 hires per dayThe program, which has expanded to include 43 stations and 420 bicycles, is averaging 700-1,000 rides per day.
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Re: Melbourne city bike share
Postby jules21 » Wed Oct 20, 2010 12:01 pm
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