running "cadence"

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running "cadence"

Postby casual_cyclist » Wed Aug 04, 2010 4:02 pm

I always thought I was a lousy runner because I don't run and so it feels weird when I do. Also, at first my shins hurt even after a few minutes. Anyway, I was watching a dvd called Evolution Running which is about efficient running form for long distances and it promotes a running "cadence" of 180 steps per minute! :shock: I thought waaa! 180 steps per minute is pretty ridiculous! The DVD sets out some drills so that you can achieve this and that depending on your current running "cadence" you should build up to 180 over a number of weeks or months. For fun, in my last running session I decided to count my steps per minute. I just counted my right foot and then doubled it for total steps per minute. I couldn't believe that my steps per minute is exactly 180! :shock:

Maybe my running form isn't so bad after all and all I need to do is build up slowly. I did notice that after my last session I had no pain in my shins at all. It seems like they were just not used to running and now they are building up they are going to be ok. I am starting the C25k program on Monday so if I have any problems I will get professional help.

With a high cadence, maybe Evolution Running is running for cyclists! :wink: :lol:
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by BNA » Wed Aug 04, 2010 7:16 pm

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Re: running "cadence"

Postby uncle arthur » Wed Aug 04, 2010 7:16 pm

and this is new news??? :D
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Re: running "cadence"

Postby casual_cyclist » Thu Aug 05, 2010 11:36 am

uncle arthur wrote:and this is new news??? :D

Well, it's news to me. I have never heard of Evolution Running before :wink:
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Re: running "cadence"

Postby uncle arthur » Thu Aug 05, 2010 12:20 pm

I suppose I say new news with tongue in cheek because it makes perfect sense....

You only have to imagine the phrase 'dancing on the pedals' to desribe those cyclists whose feet are light on the pedals, rotating effortlessly.

Similarly, running with high cadence, light on the feet, lifting the knees, almost dancing along - makes for more efficient running. You only have to look at the way (particularly the African) distance runners run - they look effortless. High cadence, short(er) strides, less bounce (think bounding between strides), less impact, body upright. It just makes for good running. Even the old Cliff Young shuffle used a pretty high cadence, although not as much style or 'dance'
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Re: running "cadence"

Postby casual_cyclist » Thu Aug 05, 2010 1:12 pm

uncle arthur wrote:I suppose I say new news with tongue in cheek because it makes perfect sense....

You only have to imagine the phrase 'dancing on the pedals' to desribe those cyclists whose feet are light on the pedals, rotating effortlessly.

Similarly, running with high cadence, light on the feet, lifting the knees, almost dancing along - makes for more efficient running. You only have to look at the way (particularly the African) distance runners run - they look effortless. High cadence, short(er) strides, less bounce (think bounding between strides), less impact, body upright. It just makes for good running. Even the old Cliff Young shuffle used a pretty high cadence, although not as much style or 'dance'

Haha! Someone told me I do that weird shuffle thing like Cliff Young! He used to "run" from Sydney to Melbourne though didn't he? If he could do that I am sure I could "shuffle" 21km! :lol:
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Re: running "cadence"

Postby maicoboy » Wed Aug 18, 2010 6:18 pm

There's a lot to be said in favour of this.

Have a look for a book called 'Born to Run' by Christopher McDougall. It discusses these concepts in a style that is difficult to put down, it's more like an adventure story.

I've been trying to put this running technique into practice, along with running barefoot, and have seen positive results. I'm now doing about 30km per week (not a lot for a proper runner) with no sore shins or knees.

Interestingly after a childhood running in bare feet including competitive middle distance throughout school, I started having problems about the time I bought my first expensive pair of running shoes. Then a couple of years throwing money at shoes, orthotics and podiatrists convinced me to get into swimming and cycling and just give up running.

Might not apply to everyone but seems to be working for me.
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Re: running "cadence"

Postby sli123 » Wed Oct 20, 2010 6:30 am

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Re: running "cadence"

Postby Myddraal » Wed Oct 20, 2010 8:16 am

Well the Olympic sprinters can run 100m in 10s. Say they're going 1.2 m a stride (I'd say they do less than that), that's 83 steps in 10 secs, times 6 is about 500 steps a minute. 180 is reasonably cruise-y. You shouldn't be getting sore shins from running though, you must be doing something wrong. Make sure you land on the balls of your feet, but keep it a smooth motion. Don't stay right up on your toes, but your heels should only be barely touching the ground with minimal weight. Think about using the ball of your foot to push the ground away behind you horizontally, not downwards. Minimize bouncing, you can't run without bounce, but try to avoid bouncing too much as that's just wasting energy and putting greater impact through your body.
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Re: running "cadence"

Postby sogood » Wed Oct 20, 2010 8:39 am

Interesting that runners use "steps" rather than "cadence". Cadence is one complete cycle, which means 180 steps equals a cadence of 90. I have actually thought about this in the past while grinding away on a stationary bike, at the end of the day, there appears to be a relationship b/n a cadence on the bike of 90-100 (recommended by many) and this quote on 180 steps. I guess the other way to compare running is with fixie riding. If you want to vary speed, then you'll need to vary the cadence (assuming fixed step distance).
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Re: running "cadence"

Postby mikesbytes » Wed Oct 20, 2010 8:43 am

When I was a runner the discussion was the length of the stride, which I guess is pretty similar to steps per minute. Are they suggesting when you run faster that you continue to take 180 steps with a longer stride or otherwise?
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Re: running "cadence"

Postby casual_cyclist » Sat Oct 23, 2010 3:29 pm

Myddraal wrote:Well the Olympic sprinters can run 100m in 10s. Say they're going 1.2 m a stride (I'd say they do less than that), that's 83 steps in 10 secs, times 6 is about 500 steps a minute. 180 is reasonably cruise-y. You shouldn't be getting sore shins from running though, you must be doing something wrong. Make sure you land on the balls of your feet, but keep it a smooth motion. Don't stay right up on your toes, but your heels should only be barely touching the ground with minimal weight. Think about using the ball of your foot to push the ground away behind you horizontally, not downwards. Minimize bouncing, you can't run without bounce, but try to avoid bouncing too much as that's just wasting energy and putting greater impact through your body.

Haha! Well, I would love to see those olympic blokes run a 1/2 marathon at a 10s per 100m pace! :wink:

I am training for a 1/2 marathon distance so 180 being "cruisy" turns out to be about right :D

With regard to my shins: I used to get sore shins from running, cycling and swimming! According to your theory I must being doing something wrong in all 3 sports. I suck at 3 sports then! :shock:

Joking aside I guess there are some biomechanical issues I need to have resolved although not sure how orthotics will help with my swimming :shock:

I ended up studying and practicing Evolution Running and in combination with building up slowly, I don't get sore shins from running at all now. The interesting thing is that a few coaches are still saying that proper running form cannot be taught (or learned) and that "proper" running style develops naturally. Well, I "naturally" got sore shins from running so as far as I am concerned, that is a load of cr*p.
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Re: running "cadence"

Postby casual_cyclist » Sat Oct 23, 2010 3:31 pm

mikesbytes wrote:When I was a runner the discussion was the length of the stride, which I guess is pretty similar to steps per minute. Are they suggesting when you run faster that you continue to take 180 steps with a longer stride or otherwise?

Faster/slower with Evolution running is controlled by number of steps (I think Pose and Chi are the same). Run faster - take more steps per minute. Run slower - take less steps. The idea is to keep stride length short so your foot is landing under your body and never forward of your hips. It seems quite energy efficient but having never run more than 5k I could not comment.
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Re: running "cadence"

Postby eeksll » Sun Oct 24, 2010 11:52 pm

i got into running about 6-8 months ago, after a work mate showed me "chi-running" and it fixed my shin splints. However, since then, the number of different running styles I have read about is crazy. I am starting to wonder if all those styles are just wrappers for a bio-mechanically "correct" running style.

I believe chi-running gets you to increase your stride as you run faster.

After reading this thread I counted my running cadence and it was 80 all 3 times i counted it. It actually feels like a slow cadence.
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Re: running "cadence"

Postby Toolish » Mon Oct 25, 2010 7:07 am

Myddraal wrote:Well the Olympic sprinters can run 100m in 10s. Say they're going 1.2 m a stride (I'd say they do less than that), that's 83 steps in 10 secs, times 6 is about 500 steps a minute. 180 is reasonably cruise-y. You shouldn't be getting sore shins from running though, you must be doing something wrong. Make sure you land on the balls of your feet, but keep it a smooth motion. Don't stay right up on your toes, but your heels should only be barely touching the ground with minimal weight. Think about using the ball of your foot to push the ground away behind you horizontally, not downwards. Minimize bouncing, you can't run without bounce, but try to avoid bouncing too much as that's just wasting energy and putting greater impact through your body.


Actually they do more like 45 steps per 100.

http://www.posetech.com/training/archives/000791.html

I have two major schools of thought on running form. One is dance with what you brung, if you are a heel striker or a midfoot striker then that is fine, just work the milage up slowly and you will be sweet. The other is forefoot striking is that answer and you need to learn how.

I am a midfoot striker (I think), I have had shin splints in the past but that was too much intensity too quickly. At the moment i an doing 40-50km weeks with no injuries. Once I get through the half ironman I am training for I will look to do a big block of running and do some real technique work, but at the moment I am building a base so I have the fitness to focus on technique.
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Re: running "cadence"

Postby gclark8 » Mon Oct 25, 2010 8:03 am

count as cycles, same as bike, mine 90 bike 90 running, check swimming, 2 beat, 4 beat, all the same. 8)
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Re: running "cadence"

Postby casual_cyclist » Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:17 am

gclark8 wrote:count as cycles, same as bike, mine 90 bike 90 running, check swimming, 2 beat, 4 beat, all the same. 8)

I don't have cadence on my bike but I suspect when I get tired my cadence drops. I do have cadence for my running now 8) and I can tell you when I am fresh it is constant around the 90 mark but it's dropping lower into the high 80s or slightly lower when I am tired. I can also report that my running feels less "springy" as I get tired and my cadence drops.

Oh, and of course you are right, running cadence is counted as a complete cycle. The 180 quoted above is SPM for both feet. Equivalent cadence is 90.
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