Power test time
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Power test time
Postby jamierk » Wed Oct 27, 2010 7:42 pm
Ouch!
Jamie
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Re: Power test time
Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Wed Oct 27, 2010 7:58 pm
do a 4-lapper sometime in the next 4-5 days
That'll give you 2 good data points for the CP model.
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Re: Power test time
Postby jamierk » Wed Oct 27, 2010 8:08 pm
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Re: Power test time
Postby twizzle » Thu Oct 28, 2010 10:04 pm
...real cyclists don't have squeaky chains...
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Re: Power test time
Postby sogood » Thu Oct 28, 2010 10:22 pm
Why 4 laps?Alex Simmons/RST wrote:do a 4-lapper sometime in the next 4-5 days
That'll give you 2 good data points for the CP model.
RK wrote:And that is Wikipedia - I can write my own definition.
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Re: Power test time
Postby twizzle » Fri Oct 29, 2010 11:07 am
20 minute point to allow for a critical power prediction.sogood wrote:Why 4 laps?Alex Simmons/RST wrote:do a 4-lapper sometime in the next 4-5 days
That'll give you 2 good data points for the CP model.
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Re: Power test time
Postby sogood » Fri Oct 29, 2010 11:20 am
Ok, so it's 3 or 4 laps depending one's performance. 4 full laps in 20mins is pretty impressive, probably need aero gears.twizzle wrote:20 minute point to allow for a critical power prediction.
RK wrote:And that is Wikipedia - I can write my own definition.
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Re: Power test time
Postby toolonglegs » Fri Oct 29, 2010 5:14 pm
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Re: Power test time
Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Fri Oct 29, 2010 10:29 pm
By then examining the slope and intercept of the work-time relationship, one can determine Critial Power (which is analogous to FTP) and your AWC. One can also predict maximal performance potential for other durations within the hour.
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Re: Power test time
Postby jamierk » Sun Oct 31, 2010 3:53 pm
81kgtwizzle wrote:408w, eh? How much do you weigh?
I am yet to do an all out 20 minute TT with the powertap, but i did do a pseudo crit in a bunch which was very intense. I was pretty worked by the end of it, although it didn't quite feel like the burn from an all out TT. Average power for 30 mins was 323 watts. Does this info feed in to the critical power model at all?
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Re: Power test time
Postby toolonglegs » Sun Oct 31, 2010 6:29 pm
WHy the ?...a 5min power around 5w per kg and an ftp possibly close to 4w per kg is a pretty good starting point...I would have been happy to hit 4w per kg ftp .jamierk wrote:81kgtwizzle wrote:408w, eh? How much do you weigh?
I am yet to do an all out 20 minute TT with the powertap, but i did do a pseudo crit in a bunch which was very intense. I was pretty worked by the end of it, although it didn't quite feel like the burn from an all out TT. Average power for 30 mins was 323 watts. Does this info feed in to the critical power model at all?
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Re: Power test time
Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Sun Oct 31, 2010 6:31 pm
GIGO.jamierk wrote:I am yet to do an all out 20 minute TT with the powertap, but i did do a pseudo crit in a bunch which was very intense. I was pretty worked by the end of it, although it didn't quite feel like the burn from an all out TT. Average power for 30 mins was 323 watts. Does this info feed in to the critical power model at all?
IOW - use a proper test.
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Re: Power test time
Postby jamierk » Sun Oct 31, 2010 6:42 pm
Thanks TLL, can't lose any more weight so gotta up the power!toolonglegs wrote: WHy the ?...a 5min power around 5w per kg and an ftp possibly close to 4w per kg is a pretty good starting point...I would have been happy to hit 4w per kg ftp .
Yep, gotta suck it up and do a TT this week. Is there a good time of the week to choose to do it? I was thinking Wedesday, only strength work the day before which i can spin out in the morning and do the TT at night on the trainer. Might mean i can't do intervals on thursday though.Alex Simmons/RST wrote: GIGO.
IOW - use a proper test.
We need more power captain!
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Re: Power test time
Postby twizzle » Mon Nov 01, 2010 1:24 pm
+1 TLL, I wish I was making those numbers. My best ever 5 mins was 464W, but I was ~ 100kg at the time.
I have a lost a couple of kg's in the last month, so looks like the new serious training regime has kick started the weight loss again and I'm almost down to my pre-winter weight. But riding 13+ hours a week sucks - I'm struggling to get everything else done and still find time to sleep.
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Re: Power test time
Postby jamierk » Tue Nov 02, 2010 7:01 pm
Alex, how should I feed this in to the cp model?
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Re: Power test time
Postby twizzle » Tue Nov 02, 2010 8:19 pm
Load your rides into Golden Cheetah and look at the CP estimate. It also has a CP calculator you can enter values into.jamierk wrote:20 minutes FTP test on the indoor trainer = 335 W. Hopefully not too bad a place to start power training. Now to get more watts!
Alex, how should I feed this in to the cp model?
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Re: Power test time
Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Tue Nov 02, 2010 8:53 pm
I would use the latter, not the former.twizzle wrote:Load your rides into Golden Cheetah and look at the CP estimate. It also has a CP calculator you can enter values into.jamierk wrote:20 minutes FTP test on the indoor trainer = 335 W. Hopefully not too bad a place to start power training. Now to get more watts!
Alex, how should I feed this in to the cp model?
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Re: Power test time
Postby jamierk » Tue Nov 02, 2010 10:45 pm
Thanks guys
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Re: Power test time
Postby twizzle » Wed Nov 03, 2010 11:53 am
I have WKO+ as well, but GC is much easier to use.
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Re: Power test time
Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Wed Nov 03, 2010 1:21 pm
when it doesn't crash.twizzle wrote:I have WKO+ as well, but GC is much easier to use.
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Re: Power test time
Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Wed Nov 03, 2010 2:08 pm
How so?twizzle wrote:and Daniels Points instead of TSS, which (once you understand what it's all about) makes more sense for the performance manager.
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Re: Power test time
Postby twizzle » Wed Nov 03, 2010 2:49 pm
It was discussed to death on the GC forum here. I found it interesting enough to go and buy the book. I like the DP's as it focuses on training value, while Andy Cogan admitted in that thread that TSS follows glycogen depletion - my issue with that being that TSS rewards you with points when you are sitting by the side of the road repairing a flat. I still use both metrics, but Daniels points shows me quickly where I have been 'slacking off', quite often I will use that as a trigger to split a ride to get rid of a chunk of 'dead' time.Alex Simmons/RST wrote:How so?twizzle wrote:and Daniels Points instead of TSS, which (once you understand what it's all about) makes more sense for the performance manager.
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Re: Power test time
Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Wed Nov 03, 2010 5:23 pm
I know the threads. There's nothing in there that suggests DPs are better or worse, other than someone's subjective assessment. In fact many others have debated over several years precisely the opposite subjective sense wrt weight of duration and intensity than the original GC contributor who put DPs in there in the first place.twizzle wrote:It was discussed to death on the GC forum here. I found it interesting enough to go and buy the book. I like the DP's as it focuses on training value, while Andy Cogan admitted in that thread that TSS follows glycogen depletionAlex Simmons/RST wrote:How so?twizzle wrote:and Daniels Points instead of TSS, which (once you understand what it's all about) makes more sense for the performance manager.
As for glycogen depletion, I think you have that wrong (if you are inferring that it "follows" glycogen depletion and that is its rationale). TSS is the only metric to have used in scientific testing for its relationship to physiological processes and it was found that is correlated quite well with glycogen depletion. That was a relationship determined well after TSS was "invented" but is not surprising given TSS has sound physiological basis underpinning its construction.
So you are not capable of knowing when to split a ride or when you are slacking off? (Just use the "time for a beer and a burrito" rule).twizzle wrote:my issue with that being that TSS rewards you with points when you are sitting by the side of the road repairing a flat. I still use both metrics, but Daniels points shows me quickly where I have been 'slacking off', quite often I will use that as a trigger to split a ride to get rid of a chunk of 'dead' time.
Or think that it makes all that much difference?
Talk about focusing on the trees (or leaves really) and not the forest (which is what these measures are about).
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Re: Power test time
Postby twizzle » Wed Nov 03, 2010 8:15 pm
Threads? I couldn't find anything other than that one thread on Daniels Points, which is why I bought the book. The original contributor never tried to justify the model, he just wanted people to have an option.Alex Simmons/RST wrote:I know the threads. There's nothing in there that suggests DPs are better or worse, other than someone's subjective assessment. In fact many others have debated over several years precisely the opposite subjective sense wrt weight of duration and intensity than the original GC contributor who put DPs in there in the first place.twizzle wrote: It was discussed to death on the GC forum here. I found it interesting enough to go and buy the book. I like the DP's as it focuses on training value, while Andy Cogan admitted in that thread that TSS follows glycogen depletion
Update : O.K., just found lost of discussion about the "Jack Daniels" training method, but there's almost nothing out there re. "Daniels Points", which is what I was looking for when I first wondered what this 'other metric' was all about.
Blame Andy - he used that as his reason as to why his model was better than anyone else's.As for glycogen depletion, I think you have that wrong (if you are inferring that it "follows" glycogen depletion and that is its rationale). TSS is the only metric to have used in scientific testing for its relationship to physiological processes and it was found that is correlated quite well with glycogen depletion. That was a relationship determined well after TSS was "invented" but is not surprising given TSS has sound physiological basis underpinning its construction.
Sure, tell you what, I'll switch my training to riding Corin every day. That gives me 45 minutes of climbing, and then I get free TSS points for the ~10 minute roll to the bottom of the hill. How useless will the 'forest' be after 42 days? As for the 'forest', should we start discussing the need to tune the ATL/CTL periods to suit each athlete? Or why the default of 42 days suspiciously happens to be the same as the six week block recommended by Jack Daniels? Like any model : garbage in, garbage out.So you are not capable of knowing when to split a ride or when you are slacking off? (Just use the "time for a beer and a burrito" rule).twizzle wrote:my issue with that being that TSS rewards you with points when you are sitting by the side of the road repairing a flat. I still use both metrics, but Daniels points shows me quickly where I have been 'slacking off', quite often I will use that as a trigger to split a ride to get rid of a chunk of 'dead' time.
Or think that it makes all that much difference?
Talk about focusing on the trees (or leaves really) and not the forest (which is what these measures are about).
...real cyclists don't have squeaky chains...
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