Power test time

[jamierk]

I've borrowed a powertap so to get started using it i did a short power test in centennial park today. I did one flying lap which gave me a 5 minute power value (408 watts). I beleive i've got to follow this up with a longer power test to get critical power, although a few months ago i did do a threshold power test. Probably can't use that anymore, i'm sure its changed somewhat. Hopefully i can bump these numbers up a bit with some serious intervals and dedicated training over the next few months.

Ouch!

Jamie

[Alex Simmons/RST]

do a 4-lapper sometime in the next 4-5 days
That'll give you 2 good data points for the CP model.

[jamierk]

Thanks Alex! After a terribly interrupted year, i'm finally getting some consistency in the training i'm doing.

[twizzle]

408w, eh? How much do you weigh?

[sogood]

do a 4-lapper sometime in the next 4-5 days
That'll give you 2 good data points for the CP model.

Why 4 laps?

[twizzle]

do a 4-lapper sometime in the next 4-5 days
That'll give you 2 good data points for the CP model.

Why 4 laps?

20 minute point to allow for a critical power prediction.

[sogood]

20 minute point to allow for a critical power prediction.

Ok, so it's 3 or 4 laps depending one's performance. 4 full laps in 20mins is pretty impressive, probably need aero gears.

[toolonglegs]

Alex is a fan of 16km TT's I think mixed in with other shorter efforts to work out your parameters.

[Alex Simmons/RST]

A 4 lapper will likely result in a time between 20 and 30 minutes, which when combined with one maximal test of between 3-6 minutes are ideal inputs for the Critical Power model. Shorter is no good for the short test, as you need to be sure of draining your anaerobic work capacity (AWC) as much as possible. ~ 25 minutes is good as well as it's long enough for it to be a predominantly aerobic contribution + AWC to have been thoroughly tapped out.

By then examining the slope and intercept of the work-time relationship, one can determine Critial Power (which is analogous to FTP) and your AWC. One can also predict maximal performance potential for other durations within the hour.

[jamierk]

408w, eh? How much do you weigh?

81kg

I am yet to do an all out 20 minute TT with the powertap, but i did do a pseudo crit in a bunch which was very intense. I was pretty worked by the end of it, although it didn't quite feel like the burn from an all out TT. Average power for 30 mins was 323 watts. Does this info feed in to the critical power model at all?

[toolonglegs]

408w, eh? How much do you weigh?

81kg

I am yet to do an all out 20 minute TT with the powertap, but i did do a pseudo crit in a bunch which was very intense. I was pretty worked by the end of it, although it didn't quite feel like the burn from an all out TT. Average power for 30 mins was 323 watts. Does this info feed in to the critical power model at all?

WHy the ?...a 5min power around 5w per kg and an ftp possibly close to 4w per kg is a pretty good starting point...I would have been happy to hit 4w per kg ftp .

[Alex Simmons/RST]

I am yet to do an all out 20 minute TT with the powertap, but i did do a pseudo crit in a bunch which was very intense. I was pretty worked by the end of it, although it didn't quite feel like the burn from an all out TT. Average power for 30 mins was 323 watts. Does this info feed in to the critical power model at all?

GIGO.

IOW - use a proper test.

[jamierk]

WHy the ?...a 5min power around 5w per kg and an ftp possibly close to 4w per kg is a pretty good starting point...I would have been happy to hit 4w per kg ftp .

Thanks TLL, can't lose any more weight so gotta up the power!

GIGO.

IOW - use a proper test.

Yep, gotta suck it up and do a TT this week. Is there a good time of the week to choose to do it? I was thinking Wedesday, only strength work the day before which i can spin out in the morning and do the TT at night on the trainer. Might mean i can't do intervals on thursday though.

We need more power captain!

[twizzle]

F!ck, 81kg!

+1 TLL, I wish I was making those numbers. My best ever 5 mins was 464W, but I was ~ 100kg at the time.

I have a lost a couple of kg's in the last month, so looks like the new serious training regime has kick started the weight loss again and I'm almost down to my pre-winter weight. But riding 13+ hours a week sucks - I'm struggling to get everything else done and still find time to sleep.

[jamierk]

20 minutes FTP test on the indoor trainer = 335 W. Hopefully not too bad a place to start power training. Now to get more watts!

Alex, how should I feed this in to the cp model?

[twizzle]

20 minutes FTP test on the indoor trainer = 335 W. Hopefully not too bad a place to start power training. Now to get more watts!

Alex, how should I feed this in to the cp model?

Load your rides into Golden Cheetah and look at the CP estimate. It also has a CP calculator you can enter values into.

[Alex Simmons/RST]

20 minutes FTP test on the indoor trainer = 335 W. Hopefully not too bad a place to start power training. Now to get more watts!

Alex, how should I feed this in to the cp model?

Load your rides into Golden Cheetah and look at the CP estimate. It also has a CP calculator you can enter values into.

I would use the latter, not the former.

[jamierk]

According to GC (just starting using this, it seems quite good), my CP is 311 Watts which from my estimated threshold of 312 wasn't too bad.

Thanks guys

[twizzle]

Get the development build of GC, the one dated August 15'th. Metrics, significantly improved "Ride Plot", the ability to create intervals on the ride plot screen by holding down shift while left-mouse selecting... and Daniels Points instead of TSS, which (once you understand what it's all about) makes more sense for the performance manager.

I have WKO+ as well, but GC is much easier to use.

[Alex Simmons/RST]

I have WKO+ as well, but GC is much easier to use.

when it doesn't crash.

[Alex Simmons/RST]

and Daniels Points instead of TSS, which (once you understand what it's all about) makes more sense for the performance manager.

How so?

[twizzle]

and Daniels Points instead of TSS, which (once you understand what it's all about) makes more sense for the performance manager.

How so?

It was discussed to death on the GC forum here. I found it interesting enough to go and buy the book. I like the DP's as it focuses on training value, while Andy Cogan admitted in that thread that TSS follows glycogen depletion - my issue with that being that TSS rewards you with points when you are sitting by the side of the road repairing a flat. I still use both metrics, but Daniels points shows me quickly where I have been 'slacking off', quite often I will use that as a trigger to split a ride to get rid of a chunk of 'dead' time.

[Alex Simmons/RST]

and Daniels Points instead of TSS, which (once you understand what it's all about) makes more sense for the performance manager.

How so?

It was discussed to death on the GC forum here. I found it interesting enough to go and buy the book. I like the DP's as it focuses on training value, while Andy Cogan admitted in that thread that TSS follows glycogen depletion

I know the threads. There's nothing in there that suggests DPs are better or worse, other than someone's subjective assessment. In fact many others have debated over several years precisely the opposite subjective sense wrt weight of duration and intensity than the original GC contributor who put DPs in there in the first place.

As for glycogen depletion, I think you have that wrong (if you are inferring that it "follows" glycogen depletion and that is its rationale). TSS is the only metric to have used in scientific testing for its relationship to physiological processes and it was found that is correlated quite well with glycogen depletion. That was a relationship determined well after TSS was "invented" but is not surprising given TSS has sound physiological basis underpinning its construction.

my issue with that being that TSS rewards you with points when you are sitting by the side of the road repairing a flat. I still use both metrics, but Daniels points shows me quickly where I have been 'slacking off', quite often I will use that as a trigger to split a ride to get rid of a chunk of 'dead' time.

So you are not capable of knowing when to split a ride or when you are slacking off? (Just use the "time for a beer and a burrito" rule).

Or think that it makes all that much difference?

Talk about focusing on the trees (or leaves really) and not the forest (which is what these measures are about).

[twizzle]

It was discussed to death on the GC forum here. I found it interesting enough to go and buy the book. I like the DP's as it focuses on training value, while Andy Cogan admitted in that thread that TSS follows glycogen depletion

I know the threads. There's nothing in there that suggests DPs are better or worse, other than someone's subjective assessment. In fact many others have debated over several years precisely the opposite subjective sense wrt weight of duration and intensity than the original GC contributor who put DPs in there in the first place.

Threads? I couldn't find anything other than that one thread on Daniels Points, which is why I bought the book. The original contributor never tried to justify the model, he just wanted people to have an option.

Update : O.K., just found lost of discussion about the "Jack Daniels" training method, but there's almost nothing out there re. "Daniels Points", which is what I was looking for when I first wondered what this 'other metric' was all about.

As for glycogen depletion, I think you have that wrong (if you are inferring that it "follows" glycogen depletion and that is its rationale). TSS is the only metric to have used in scientific testing for its relationship to physiological processes and it was found that is correlated quite well with glycogen depletion. That was a relationship determined well after TSS was "invented" but is not surprising given TSS has sound physiological basis underpinning its construction.

Blame Andy - he used that as his reason as to why his model was better than anyone else's.

my issue with that being that TSS rewards you with points when you are sitting by the side of the road repairing a flat. I still use both metrics, but Daniels points shows me quickly where I have been 'slacking off', quite often I will use that as a trigger to split a ride to get rid of a chunk of 'dead' time.

So you are not capable of knowing when to split a ride or when you are slacking off? (Just use the "time for a beer and a burrito" rule).

Or think that it makes all that much difference?

Talk about focusing on the trees (or leaves really) and not the forest (which is what these measures are about).

Sure, tell you what, I'll switch my training to riding Corin every day. That gives me 45 minutes of climbing, and then I get free TSS points for the ~10 minute roll to the bottom of the hill. How useless will the 'forest' be after 42 days? As for the 'forest', should we start discussing the need to tune the ATL/CTL periods to suit each athlete? Or why the default of 42 days suspiciously happens to be the same as the six week block recommended by Jack Daniels? Like any model : garbage in, garbage out.

[toolonglegs]