Pedals / toe clips

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Pedals / toe clips

Postby drubie » Sun Nov 28, 2010 1:03 pm

Alright - so I put a different back wheel on the Repco with a suicide hub setup - track cog and a BB lockring, slothered in loctite. Fitted everything up and the chainline is the same as the wheel with the BMX freewheel - so far so good.

However, when I go to get my second foot in the pedal I'm having a massive fail. I just can't seem to flip the pedal over at the right spot to slot my sneaker in there. I know this sounds stupid / dreadfully uncoordinated but it's driving me nuts. How do you do it? Start extra slow?

The pulsing back through the cranks is interesting if you get out of synch while going down a hill - not sure if fixed is really an improvement...
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by BNA » Sun Nov 28, 2010 3:30 pm

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Re: Pedals / toe clips

Postby yehuwdiy » Sun Nov 28, 2010 3:30 pm

It's not just you, I had the same problem. Alwayss eemed to be looking at what I was about to hit and not where the pedal was. I gave up and went clipless instead. The small amount of success I did have was when I let the offending pedal get to 12 o'clock and then followed it down with my foot. I even went so far as to put a small lead weight (off of a car tyre) on the front of that toe-clip so that it was always pointing straight down when not in use.

I still sucked and gave up quickly. Too old, too unco.
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Re: Pedals / toe clips

Postby Stovepipe » Sun Nov 28, 2010 3:46 pm

nah way easier flipping it just when its coming up from 6 (so moving up towards you). it helps if your pedal has a little spur to help you flip it over. i put that spur roughly a bit behind the ball of my foot and roll it back so the pdeal flicks around onto the front of my foot, then slide in from there
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Re: Pedals / toe clips

Postby brauluver » Sun Nov 28, 2010 3:56 pm

Keep practising..It'll come to you.
Next is to start skidding :wink:
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It's All In The Wrist Action....

Postby Quinns Rocks Roadie » Sun Nov 28, 2010 4:09 pm

brauluver wrote:Keep practising..It'll come to you.

Second to that.
The pulsing back through the cranks is interesting if you get out of synch while going down a hill - not sure if fixed is really an improvement...

Next thing to do is to get shoes with old slot type blocks - these will couple your feet to the pedals a whole lot better than just running shoes and help with spinning fast on downhill sections.
In time your action will change (for the better) and it will all feel perfectly natural.
The one big thing to be aware/wary of is getting out of the saddle and sprinting - if you stop pedalling you will go straight over the bars - the trick is to sit back on the saddle before relaxing the legs.
Good luck with it Drubie, persevere and you will enjoy it bigtime.

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Enter the Hipster

Postby drubie » Sun Nov 28, 2010 5:19 pm

Quinns Rocks Roadie wrote:
brauluver wrote:Keep practising..It'll come to you.

Good luck with it Drubie, persevere and you will enjoy it bigtime.


I will keep trying. I think I might buy some better toe clips though. The tip shop plastic VP pedals are a bit crap and the strap itself is catching on the crank arm (which I think is part of the problem - stops it rotating enough when you hit the little flipper).

I have some MKS Quill pedals on my shelf, I might order some clips and new straps for those and keep persevering. The matching MKS clips are only $15 or so, the straps not much more. I can see that starting the pedal flip at 6 might be a goer though,on the way down to ezydvd I still failed but could see how it would work if the pedal flipped consistantly.

I can see the forced nature of pedalling through transitions is helpful though - especially as mentioned where you sit back down but still have to pedal after a session out of the saddle.
So we get the leaders we deserve and we elect, we get the companies and the products that we ask for, right? And we have to ask for different things. – Paul Gilding
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Plastic Clips Are Ok....

Postby Quinns Rocks Roadie » Mon Nov 29, 2010 1:24 am

I can see that starting the pedal flip at 6 might be a goer though,on the way down to ezydvd ? I still failed but could see how it would work if the pedal flipped consistantly.

Drubie, the weight of the clip and strap if not rubbing on the crank will set the angle of the pedal correctly for catching the hook and flipping the pedal up and inserting the shoe in one easy motion on the upstroke and forward across the top.
Proper road pedals keep the straps from rubbing the cranks.
Toe Strap Buttons set the strap maximum open length and serve as easy grip handles when tightening the straps.
Image


I can see the forced nature of pedalling through transitions is helpful though - especially as mentioned where you sit back down but still have to pedal after a session out of the saddle.

Haha, yes it's mission critical to keep the power on if only a little bit until seated, and even then if you allow you knees to lock backwards you will get bumped up off the saddle......if you are out of the saddle and over the bars and prop your legs then no amount of arm strength will keep you from going over the front, followed by your bike. :shock:
Clips can be quicker to lock in than modern cleats, and slotted type shoe blocks let you use 360* full power.

Enjoy, Eric.

What shoes and pedals do you normally use ?.
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Re: Plastic Clips Are Ok....

Postby drubie » Mon Nov 29, 2010 8:25 am

Quinns Rocks Roadie wrote:
What shoes and pedals do you normally use ?.


Look Delta is my preference but I have SPD's on a couple of bikes. The Delta is a very different action in that you catch it with the toe and the pedal points upward. I'm not sure I want to switch to proper cycling shoes on the Repco as it's supposed to be a fun / occasional commuter / light errand bike. One of the coaches in the club recommended a once a week ride on one to sort out my (terrible) form so it's not all about the hipster angle. If I can get the toe straps sorted it'll be my Friday commuter but then again I don't know whether cycling in sneakers is compatible with fixie form fixing.
So we get the leaders we deserve and we elect, we get the companies and the products that we ask for, right? And we have to ask for different things. – Paul Gilding
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Re: Pedals / toe clips

Postby Quinns Rocks Roadie » Mon Nov 29, 2010 10:43 am

Hi Drubie, sneakers are fine for trips to the local cafe etc, but for correcting pedalling action problems I think you would better off using proper shoes so that you feet are 'glued' to the pedals and you are able to use 360* power stroke whilst keeping your feet aligned straight ahead automatically.
The blocks will also enable you to practice 'ankling' correctly without having to apply effort/slightly different action to keep your feet in the clips.
If you are going to do some high revving intervals stuff then I would say shoes/blocks are a must.
I used to ride Detto Pietro shoes like these with slotted blocks back in the old days...Image
Another possibility is to swap pedals according to different rides and use your modern Look or Spd pedals for your commute and/or corrective training.
If swapping pedals often, best to use these Pedal Washers Stainless Steel to protect your crank ends.
Image

Btw, I modified my cheap Mtb Spd pedals and fitted straps and clips in addition to the Spd cleats - this enables me to use Mtb shoes or runners on my roadie.

Eric.
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Re: Pedals / toe clips

Postby drubie » Mon Nov 29, 2010 1:59 pm

Quinns Rocks Roadie wrote:Another possibility is to swap pedals according to different rides and use your modern Look or Spd pedals for your commute and/or corrective training.
...
Btw, I modified my cheap Mtb Spd pedals and fitted straps and clips in addition to the Spd cleats - this enables me to use Mtb shoes or runners on my roadie.

Eric.


Not sure about the MTB shoes for stroke correction - mine are nice but pretty flexi compared to the carbon soled Shimano shoes (and that's why I have them, so I can walk when I get to my destination on the tourer/cyclocross bikes).

I think I will take up your suggestion, spin on a set of PP296 Deltas for the training sessions and upgrade the MKS Quill pedals with MKS clips for posing. Another set of cycling shoes would probably mean instant divorce. Having said that, if I'm going to be hammering on this thing I think I might have to put a proper chainset on it rather than the dodgy one at the moment (see pictures in the fixie pictures thread).
So we get the leaders we deserve and we elect, we get the companies and the products that we ask for, right? And we have to ask for different things. – Paul Gilding
but really, that's rubbish. We get none of it because the choices are illusory.
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Re: Pedals / toe clips

Postby Quinns Rocks Roadie » Mon Nov 29, 2010 7:10 pm

Image
That bike looks like you should have fun on it...when you get your gearing optimal.
So what is it that is so bad about your pedalling technique ?.

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Bad bad leroy brown

Postby drubie » Mon Nov 29, 2010 8:20 pm

Quinns Rocks Roadie wrote:So what is it that is so bad about your pedalling technique ?.


I was observed getting raggedy by the club coach during a training ride when the pressure was on. Mistiming I think is the best way to describe it - wasting energy, not following through completely. I'm supposed to be concentrating on evening it out and after the ride mentioned the pictured junkyard dog. Coach said try it fixed and ride it on undulations. It started out as a "could I build one for no bux" challenge but it's starting to turn into something more serious. The frame is crap but stripped out Sheldon style it's surprisingly spritely.
So we get the leaders we deserve and we elect, we get the companies and the products that we ask for, right? And we have to ask for different things. – Paul Gilding
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It's Gunna Hurt....

Postby Quinns Rocks Roadie » Mon Nov 29, 2010 9:09 pm

Ok, a fixie should help.
Be prepared to run high cadence to round/even your action - ime a pumping action comes from riding too big a gear.
Intervals training ought to help - full power accelerate on the saddle and hold max revs for 250m then throttle back/roll for 500m to recover and repeat...16 of those sets and you'll be cooked, but it will improve your action, and especially your aerobic and anaerobic fitness - the catch is that you need to be pretty fit to start with.
Every leg muscle will be screaming by the 250m mark so you will learn to share the load to different muscle groups to get to the throttle off point, and this will fix your action automatically.
Also pay close attention to your saddle height and position.
I forget what gearing I used...85-90 inch range if I recall correctly.
I don't understand the 'undulations' bit ???.

Eric.

Keep us posted. :wink:
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Re: It's Gunna Hurt....

Postby drubie » Mon Nov 29, 2010 10:32 pm

Quinns Rocks Roadie wrote:I forget what gearing I used...85-90 inch range if I recall correctly.
I don't understand the 'undulations' bit ???.
:


Undulations - Rolling hills rather than big climbs. The interval training you described sounds interesting though (very close to what's in the old Greg LeMond book I have).
I think this thing is only running 67.5 inches though, perhaps an OK starting point but I'm 90% convinced that a bigger and better quality crank will be on it fairly soon. (heh, look how far off topic this drifted...)

I just realised in the photo you reposted you can clearly see the offending pedal strap caught up on the crank - doh!
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Pedals / Toe Clips Are Not The Problem...

Postby Quinns Rocks Roadie » Tue Nov 30, 2010 12:28 am

Undulations - Rolling hills rather than big climbs. The interval training you described sounds interesting though

Very gentle rolling hills ought to be useful, but intervals probably better.
I change average action according to the terrain - further back on the saddle and heels down a bit for climbs, on the flats heels pretty much horizontal average and heels up a bit when spinning or downhill.
Google 'cycling ankling' for tips and some controversy - I have always done it and it is natural to me - makes for a smooth action and a big benefit for redistributing load to muscle groups according to fatigue.....you can relax one muscle group a bit whilst shifting load to different muscles until the first group recovers etc....trick is to balance load between glutes, quads, hamstrings, tibialis and calves, all at the same time. :?

Your gearing does look low and if 67.5" is too low for on the flat and intervals - hell, I used to get over Mt. Cootha in Brisbane in that gear sitting on the saddle. :shock:

The 'offending' strap should not be too big an obstacle once you get the hang of flipping up and in - the other coordination test is to reach down and tighten the straps with the cranks going around. 8)

Brainwave - rollers that have a rotating front wheel roller are hugely beneficial to leaning a smooth action....if you can find some junked conveyor belt rollers you could make a set for next to nothing.

Eric.
http://www.cyclingtipsblog.com/2009/05/efficiency-of-pedal-stroke-ankling/
http://www.perfectcondition.ltd.uk/Articles/Pedalling/index.htm
http://www.perfectcondition.ltd.uk/Articles/Pedalling/LFC%20ideas/LFC%20Notes.htm
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Re: Pedals / Toe Clips Are Not The Problem...

Postby drubie » Tue Nov 30, 2010 9:12 pm

Quinns Rocks Roadie wrote:Google 'cycling ankling' for tips and some controversy - I have always done it and it is natural to me - makes for a smooth action and a big benefit for redistributing load to muscle groups according to fatigue.


I had a go at the ankling on the way home tonight (although on the SPD equipped tourer) but I was just full of fail. I might have been trying to exaggerate the motion too much. "Fixie Friday" I'll have a proper go once I get that toe strap to behave.
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Re: Pedals / Toe Clips Are Not The Problem...

Postby casual_cyclist » Tue Nov 30, 2010 9:39 pm

drubie wrote:
Quinns Rocks Roadie wrote:Google 'cycling ankling' for tips and some controversy - I have always done it and it is natural to me - makes for a smooth action and a big benefit for redistributing load to muscle groups according to fatigue.


I had a go at the ankling on the way home tonight (although on the SPD equipped tourer) but I was just full of fail. I might have been trying to exaggerate the motion too much. "Fixie Friday" I'll have a proper go once I get that toe strap to behave.

I do it when I am fatigued. It helps.
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Re: Pedals / toe clips

Postby Quinns Rocks Roadie » Wed Dec 01, 2010 12:32 am

Yes, the ankling thing is relatively subtle, but doing it exaggerated at first will help you to retrain the brain/muscle connection and make it automatic in time.
I do it when I am fatigued. It helps.

Yes, the ankling is about shifting muscle loading - I find going the big upper thigh pump is more fatiguing than than spinning faster and distributing the load.
Once you have your foot in the strap shouldn't matter.....

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Re: Pedals / toe clips

Postby foo on patrol » Mon Dec 06, 2010 6:50 am

If you are wearing sneakers, you will forever have trouble getting into toe clips because, you cannot slid the shoe in once you have flipped the toe clip. :)
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Re: Pedals / toe clips

Postby drubie » Mon Dec 06, 2010 11:42 am

foo on patrol wrote:If you are wearing sneakers, you will forever have trouble getting into toe clips because, you cannot slid the shoe in once you have flipped the toe clip. :)


Depends on the sneaker. Since I made sure the strap doesn't foul the crank arm, I have found this a bit easier. It's still tricky, but at least the pedal comes into the proper position enough to get my foot in. A Dunlop volley or similar might be easier than running shoes I suppose.
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Re: Pedals / toe clips

Postby stefanbj » Wed Jan 12, 2011 5:40 pm

best shoes for toe clips are dunlop vollies
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Re: Pedals / toe clips

Postby Stovepipe » Wed Jan 12, 2011 7:42 pm

stefanbj wrote:best shoes for toe clips are dunlop vollies


incorrect.

I mean, they'll work, but you want something with a stiffer sole
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Re: Pedals / toe clips

Postby DaveOZ » Wed Jan 12, 2011 7:48 pm

Do they still make Dunlop BMX Pancakes? :P
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Re: Pedals / toe clips

Postby Verbs & Nouns » Thu Jan 13, 2011 10:38 am

Dunlop Volleys are too soft.

I wear Adidas Sambas. Reasonably stiff sole and they slide into clips easily. And they are reasonably hard wearing. They are also twice the price of Volleys, but…

On my bikes I use MKS Sylvan track pedals with various clips (W-Base four gate clips, some old single gate clips and MKS clips) I run SAG double straps on all my bikes. I like the security of double straps on my fixed.

I remember when I first started, it take me forever to flip the pedal and get my feet in. it just takes practice. I went out of my way to ride around the quiet backstreets clipping and out (with both feet) to get used to it. I still have problems every now and then, particularly with the strap hitting the crank arm and not flipping properly, but as I said before, it takes practice.

It’s the same as when I first road with Look Delta’s on my roadie. It took forever to get my foot in and I bashed my ankle repeatedly.

And for fun, here’s a shot of my foot in my pedals… the shoes are adidas Samba, MKS pedals and clips and the SAG double straps.

Image
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Re: Pedals / toe clips

Postby aaron » Thu Jan 13, 2011 11:59 am

that paint job it sooooo good!!
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