Why So Close

Equipment and On Road Behaviour, Laws and Rules. Cycling Promotion and Advocacy

Re: Why So Close

Postby Oxford » Sun Dec 05, 2010 4:58 pm

intersting thread, I'll link some of my videos below but a few comments first.

those advocating cyclists get out of the way of truck drivers because cycling is recreational and truck drivers are making a living. you obviously agree that pedestrians should get out of the way of cycle couriers as the couriers are trying to make a living. off course that is nonsense just like truck drivers should have right of way.

as for might is right. when large water vessels have brakes that can stop/slow them like a truck or large vehicle on the road then maybe the maritime laws will change. but because large vehicles can modulate their speed via braking then there is no reason why they shouldn't respect other road users. the trick is to get any vehicle operator to recognise that brakes are for using at any time not just for red lights, though some vehicle users have trouble with that as well.

now for some home movies, after a run in with some jack boots I decided to start videoing my commutes for my own peace of mind. here are some of them. rest assurred that if its shown here either the police or the bus company has been told and either tickets or discliplnary actions was taken. and yes I have forward and rear facing cameras. catch them coming and going.









This guy claimed he was braking for traffic, he had to go through a 3 hour interview with the constabulary


This is my favourite 4 separate TINs for this one and the guy is so stupid he drove home around the corner. He had a lot of explaining to do to the National Marketing Manager of PnS.


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by BNA » Tue Dec 14, 2010 1:01 am

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Re: Why So Close

Postby RobertFrith » Tue Dec 14, 2010 1:01 am

I was on Stirling Highway turning left into Leach Highway this morning just after 8. At this time the traffic is slow and in the area there are quite a few trucks heading from the port to Kewdale.

As I entered the turn the cab of a truck came past me about a metre away. Thank dog I had the presence of mind to realise that he wasn't going to be able to get his double B past me with that much clearance as he cornered. Discretion, valour etc... I hopped off onto the footpath and watched as a few seconds later the tyres of his second trailer scrubbed the kerb!

I got his rego and noticed that he was carrying onesteel skips (I guess they're for shipping scrap to China), phoned onesteel HQ about 10 minutes later. So far they seem to have taken it very seriously, two phone calls and an email back to me, the bloke in charge of drivers in WA is away interstate today but should get back to me tomorrow. The email reads in part "When we receive complaints regarding driver behaviour they are comprehensively investigated and followed up, with corrective actions taken as appropriate."

This sort of thing has happened about every 1000km to me this year. I used to think video recording trips was overkill, my mind is changing.
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Re: Why So Close

Postby Max » Tue Dec 14, 2010 5:09 am

RobertFrith wrote:I got his rego and noticed that he was carrying onesteel skips (I guess they're for shipping scrap to China), phoned onesteel HQ about 10 minutes later. So far they seem to have taken it very seriously, two phone calls and an email back to me, the bloke in charge of drivers in WA is away interstate today but should get back to me tomorrow. The email reads in part "When we receive complaints regarding driver behaviour they are comprehensively investigated and followed up, with corrective actions taken as appropriate."


Without giving away who I work for, it's closely related to One Steel. Both companies have a very serious safety culture. I can tell you from experience that this sort of thing gets attention from the highest levels of management. At the very least, the driver involved will get a serious talking-to (not the token "we've spoken to him" BS that many places give). Let us know how it goes!

Max
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Re: Why So Close

Postby Oxford » Tue Dec 14, 2010 5:21 am

More and more companies are taking safety seriously for a few reasons, safety itself, they just cannot afford not to. Cynical hat on, public image, companies realise that nowadays almost anything can be video recorded anywhere, anytime, so they cannot afford their image to be tainted, especially large listed companies, they spends lots of $$$ creating an image to not have the silly actions of a truck driver screw it up.

People called me paranoid when I started DVRing my commutes, but hey its the best insurance to confirm what you're saying is what happened.
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Re: Why So Close

Postby Boognoss » Tue Dec 14, 2010 8:20 am

Oxford wrote:/snip

People called me paranoid when I started DVRing my commutes, but hey its the best insurance to confirm what you're saying is what happened.


+1

The best evidence is video evidence :)
n = 3 for now

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Re: Why So Close

Postby russellgarrard » Tue Dec 14, 2010 10:08 am

I love the fact that some of these pricks get charged :)
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Re: Why So Close

Postby Aushiker » Tue Dec 14, 2010 10:19 am

Hi

Glad you got through it okay Rob and hopefully you will get something positive back from the company. I got a similar follow-up approach from Linfox awhile back when I reported one of their drivers.

With respect to the camera. I reported an incident last week and made it clear in my Police report (online) that I had video evidence. Interesting thing is that I normally get the "we will note this in incident in the database" style of response within 24 hours, whereas this time I am still waiting to hear back. I like to think that they are following-up with the driver at least; mind you they have not asked to see the video as yet which is a bit disappointing.

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Re: Why So Close

Postby russellgarrard » Tue Dec 14, 2010 10:28 am

il padrone wrote:That first one should be reported straight to the police! You can make out bus rego number, and if you have the time and date the driver can be traced. Blatant law-breaking (overtaking across double lines). No excuse at all. This 'bus driver' doesn't deserve a licence to operate a fishing rod, much less a bus carrying public passengers. He's a hazard on the road.

Drivers crossing dpouble lines when overtaking cyclists is one of the driver infractions that I find most infuriating, and potentially life-threatening. I've had them do it on crests, bends and blind corners with oncoming traffic :x


I do this, that is, overtake on double lines, BUT it's only legal in QLD if the road ahead is very clear and the cyclist is travelling slow enough to be considered a hazard. I don't give cyclists 1m clearance, I give them an entire lane clearance if I can. Plus queensland transport recommends a whole lane clearance at 60 and above. I would never put anyone in danger just to get past them. Hell, I've done it 'Tour De France' style, come up behind a cyclist. Hit the hazards, blocked traffic behind me so they can sprint up hills etc :D
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Re: Why So Close

Postby uncle arthur » Tue Dec 14, 2010 11:42 am

There are quite a few places along Brisbane's River loop where drivers seem to feel the need to scream around the bunch crossing into the oncoming lane.

Notable ones include King Arthur Terrace Tennyson, and Lambert Road and Carawa Street (continuing into The Esplanade) at Indooroopilly.

Oxford - more details on the follow up to the PNS driver offences would be welcomed please - in fact any further details of how yoiu went about following up and what for would be really useful for discussion/reference here. It is hard to pick exactly how close some of those cars were to you because of camera angles, and almost impossible to make out what drivers shout out as they go by, but I do find that holding my lane and making cars pass when I decide it is safe for me for them to do so certainly helps.
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Re: Why So Close

Postby Oxford » Tue Dec 14, 2010 1:10 pm

uncle arthur wrote:Oxford - more details on the follow up to the PNS driver offences would be welcomed please - in fact any further details of how yoiu went about following up and what for would be really useful for discussion/reference here. It is hard to pick exactly how close some of those cars were to you because of camera angles, and almost impossible to make out what drivers shout out as they go by, but I do find that holding my lane and making cars pass when I decide it is safe for me for them to do so certainly helps.
This is basically what I do when an incident occurs to begin with and then depending on the circumstances I follow other pathways as noted:
  • I only keep the video files from the DVR if I think I am going to proceed with anything otherwise the SD card is formatted daily. If I keep the files, I store them at work and then periodically bring in my laptop and spend a day transferring the files to my video library on the laptop, the files are generally 4gb for 2 hours of footage, roughly speaking, one commute for forward and rear footage, so I am selective about what I keep. If I'm going to take them home immediately I copy them to either a flash drive or DVD, only do this if I am really busy at work and know I am going to work through lunch or have appotinments all day.
  • After copying the files to some where I just use Windows Movie Maker to make the video that best reflects all the informtion I think is relevant, I make sure to include everything even if I swear as that will come out eventually so just be up front about it.
  • Upload to YouTube for your entertainment and also so I can link other people to the footage as required.
  • If I am going to the police I will type out a statement in numbered point form almost like a statutory declaration one sentence usually per point and in that I include pictures or aerial photos from whatever sources to help illustrate my complaint. This is important as I usually say very little initially when I make my complaint and ask the officer to read this statement and then ask me questions, just saves a lot of confusion. I am happy to make a copy of the document I used yesterday available if anyone is interested. <edit> Link to a copy of the statement from yesterday is here. Bear in mind this is just a preliminary bit of information and does not have to be complete, just get the ball rolling.
  • If I am complaining about a bus driver to TransLink I will include the details they require such as bus number, rego and route number as well as time and inlcude in the online complaint form a link to the YouTube footage. Very important that one as the bus driver has no excuse after their supervisor has seen the footage.
  • At the end of the statement or online complaint I detail what my requirements are as in what action I want taken, be it an apology from the bus driver or a written warning issued, if you don't ask you don't get. If its a police complaint I make sure to include the following which is absolutely necessary if you want to get anywhere and achieve any results:
    • I would like to make a formal complaint about ..........
    • I would like to bring charges against ....... for ..............
    • I am willing to make a formal statement.
    • I am willing to give evidence in court if required.
      This is the big one, anyone who has dealt with the courts knows its a time waster if it gets that far, so show your serious and go all the way.
  • If its a police complaint, I then copy the statement, the video files and any other relevant data to the CD.
  • Before attendng the police I review my GPS data and update the statement if necessary with times and speeds, recording GPS data every 1 second also provides great evidence of your conduct and can also refute their claims of when and where it happened.
Referring to the above YouTubes the 2009-11-24(R2F) driver because I could identify where he worked, I contacted the National Marketing Manager of PNS and sent an email with a YouTube link and let them know of their franchisee's behaviour, they said they would look after it. I understand that the police issued a few Traffic Infringement Notices for various offences, but they will not say specifically citing privacy. He must be mad because he finally worked out that I live around the corner from him and started drive bys until word of mouth left him clear that the police would intervene again (he is friends with a member of another different forum so I posted his actions there). He seems to stay well clear of me now.

Re the Blue Honda guy, initially the police were uninterested, so I wrote to the Deputy Commissioner, who in this case had just finished a court case where she had apprehended a reckless driver on her own time and successfully achieved a conviction. I told her I was disappointed that I could present clear evidence of bad drving and no action would be taken. The driver was subjected to a 3 hour interview of please explain, it was then my choice on whter charges would be laid, but I was advised that it would be a tenuous case, I decided that 3 hrs of police grilling should be lesson enough. Maybe it was, maybe it wasn't, but I felt satisfied that he had been dealt with.

Most of the others were reported to the police and TINs issued. The bus drivers all received warnings. At the end of the day I just feel a little safer.

I also occasionally have this on my back pack,its laminated and waterproof:
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Amazing how driver attitudes change when they are made aware they are being recorded.
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Re: Why So Close

Postby russellgarrard » Tue Dec 14, 2010 2:36 pm

Read this all the way through first:

I am getting annoyed at having to slow down for cyclists on the road, I am getting annoyed at having to go around them in a different lane to get past, I'm getting annoyed at the fact that they get to enjoy the scenery...

So what did I do? I bought a bicycle and started riding it :D Isn't it funny, all problems from a motorists point of view disappear when they start riding a bicycle. I guess we know what this means?
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Re: Why So Close

Postby il padrone » Tue Dec 14, 2010 5:06 pm

bendertiger wrote:
il padrone wrote:That first one should be reported straight to the police! You can make out bus rego number, and if you have the time and date the driver can be traced. Blatant law-breaking (overtaking across double lines). No excuse at all. This 'bus driver' doesn't deserve a licence to operate a fishing rod, much less a bus carrying public passengers. He's a hazard on the road.

Drivers crossing dpouble lines when overtaking cyclists is one of the driver infractions that I find most infuriating, and potentially life-threatening. I've had them do it on crests, bends and blind corners with oncoming traffic :x


I do this, that is, overtake on double lines, BUT it's only legal in QLD if the road ahead is very clear and the cyclist is travelling slow enough to be considered a hazard.

I would love to know more about the specific details of this Qld rule. Because AFAIK there is nothing of the sort in the National Road Rules model.
Riding bikes in traffic - what seems dangerous is usually safe; what seems safe is often more dangerous.
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Re: Why So Close

Postby Oxford » Tue Dec 14, 2010 6:13 pm

il padrone wrote:
bendertiger wrote:
il padrone wrote:That first one should be reported straight to the police! You can make out bus rego number, and if you have the time and date the driver can be traced. Blatant law-breaking (overtaking across double lines). No excuse at all. This 'bus driver' doesn't deserve a licence to operate a fishing rod, much less a bus carrying public passengers. He's a hazard on the road.

Drivers crossing dpouble lines when overtaking cyclists is one of the driver infractions that I find most infuriating, and potentially life-threatening. I've had them do it on crests, bends and blind corners with oncoming traffic :x


I do this, that is, overtake on double lines, BUT it's only legal in QLD if the road ahead is very clear and the cyclist is travelling slow enough to be considered a hazard.

I would love to know more about the specific details of this Qld rule. Because AFAIK there is nothing of the sort in the National Road Rules model.
So would I, a double line is a double line and I have read the Traffic Regulations cover to cover for Qld and have never seen an exemption to cross double lines with the exception of being under the direction of a traffic controller or a member of the police service.
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Re: Why So Close

Postby The Womble » Tue Dec 14, 2010 6:25 pm

bendertiger wrote:I love the fact that some of these pricks get charged :)

I hate the fact that only some of them will be
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Re: Why So Close

Postby The Womble » Tue Dec 14, 2010 6:28 pm

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Great for backpack covers and vests IMO
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Re: Why So Close

Postby jet-ski » Tue Dec 14, 2010 6:41 pm

think I'll print this on a shirt... hehe
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Re: Why So Close

Postby Oxford » Tue Dec 14, 2010 6:57 pm

The good thing is even just wearing it puts doubt in their mind, sort of like the security cameras in stores that are props, do you really know if they are props or are they real?
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Re: Why So Close

Postby Xplora » Wed Dec 22, 2010 9:05 pm

As said before, ride big. REAL big. I've been commuting for a few months now. I won't hog a lane if I don't need to, but if I'm riding down a street that will not let my bike, and two cars, be three abreast, then I'm hogging the whole lane. and I preemptively hog the lane if changing conditions up ahead mean that an idiot behind me won't be able to execute an overtaking move effectively.

I was initially more interested in getting out of the way, but realised that I'm going too fast, and lose too much momentum, to just dive out of the way. I average 30kmh on the street, hopefully 40 after getting a new bike :) I'm going to invest in an airhorn as well. Yelling just isn't loud enough to beat headphones. Still got the scar tissue to prove it.

IMO a lot of it is time dependent as well. You get a LOT more nutters at 4pm than 6. I have a rotating roster, and the 8-4 days are far more dangerous than 10-6. It's not traffic volume either. It's the same where I ride. But the attitude is the defining risk.

Ride big. If they are rushing past you too close, ride faster, and ride bigger. You can't take up too much lane :lol:
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