Lacing 36H hub to 18H rim?

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Lacing 36H hub to 18H rim?

Postby kukamunga » Fri Dec 28, 2007 6:15 pm

Anyone had any experience lacing a 36H front hub to a 18H rim (with 18 spokes, even dishing)?

I do not like the potential stress radial lacing will potentially put on the 'cheaper', shallow flanged 36H hubs I have, so will be looking to cross spokes 1X or 2X? I feel their may be some potential problem with the 'alignment' (or 'mis-alignment') of holes in opposing hub flanges and spoke length calculation (a problem that I don't think would arise if lacing an 18H hub to a 36H rim, say). Any 'expert' advice?

Parts (except spokes?) are from hard rubbish - deep dish 700C Velocity rim as good as new, low-end front Shimano hubs need servicing.

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by BNA » Fri Dec 28, 2007 11:15 pm

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Postby europa » Fri Dec 28, 2007 11:15 pm

Give it go considering the origin of the parts.

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Re: Lacing 36H hub to 18H rim?

Postby QuangVuong » Tue May 21, 2013 7:20 am

Ultra thread revival! But Kukamunga you're still around. Did you ever get around to doing this? I'm thinking of 18 hole Velocity Aeroheads with a 36h Shimano hub(prob around 105 quality). Lacing would be the Crows Foot.
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Re: Lacing 36H hub to 18H rim?

Postby petal665 » Tue May 21, 2013 8:07 am

I recently laced 36 hole Ultegra hub radially to an 18 hole Zipp rim. I don't expect any long term issues.
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Re: Lacing 36H hub to 18H rim?

Postby kukamunga » Tue May 21, 2013 8:55 am

kukamunga wrote:I do not like the potential stress radial lacing will potentially put on the 'cheaper', shallow flanged 36H hubs I have, so will be looking to cross spokes 1X or 2X? I feel their may be some potential problem with the 'alignment' (or 'mis-alignment') of holes in opposing hub flanges and spoke length calculation (a problem that I don't think would arise if lacing an 18H hub to a 36H rim, say). Any 'expert' advice?
Wow! I did actually end up building a 36 hole high flange hub to the 18H Velocity rim. As i didn't want radial lacing, cross lacing was a real headache. 18 / 2 = 9 - an odd number of spokes on each side, which made paired cross lacing impossible. I ended going for a variation on a 'crows feet' lacing pattern, with 6 lots of 3 spokes, each lot with 2 crossing and one radial laced spoke. It was easy calculating the radial spoke length, but a lot of trial and error getting the crossing spoke lengths right

The wheel is still occasionally used. I'll see if I've got some pics of it later
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Re: Lacing 36H hub to 18H rim?

Postby HappyHumber » Tue May 21, 2013 2:30 pm

Would be curious to see, Kooks. Haven't tried crowsfoot myself yet. Radial through 4 cross, but none of that funky stuff... yet...
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Re: Lacing 36H hub to 18H rim?

Postby HLC » Tue May 21, 2013 3:55 pm

I once laced a 16h shamal to a 32 hole hub. Radial 1 NDS, 1x DS.

Then I delaced and built it up to a 16h hub.

No dramas.
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Re: Lacing 36H hub to 18H rim?

Postby kukamunga » Tue May 21, 2013 9:41 pm

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I built this wheel about three years ago. I haven't built another wheel like it. It seems to be holding up well after maybe 500 kms, including some minor 'cx' use. I showed it at a Bike Mechanics Wheel Building class last year, and the instructor / master wheel builder seemed to think that the pattern and build was ok

Like I said earlier, getting the 'cross' spoke length right was a matter of experimentation at the time - I think there may be three different spoke lengths used. Don't ask!
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Re: Lacing 36H hub to 18H rim?

Postby QuangVuong » Tue May 21, 2013 9:51 pm

Empty spoke holes dont look too odd. What hubs are they? Wonder if standard flange height hubs would work well enough? And how would rear lacing go? Same pattern?
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Re: Lacing 36H hub to 18H rim?

Postby kukamunga » Tue May 21, 2013 10:42 pm

The front is a Quando hub of some description from who knows where. I just happened to have a matching 28 hole rim, and built it two-cross onto a 28 hole Sturmey Archer AW hub, also from my hard rubbish collection. Both wheels run on my green machine

Image

I'd be using more than 18 spokes for a rear wheel, quang!
Last edited by kukamunga on Wed May 22, 2013 8:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Lacing 36H hub to 18H rim?

Postby Dan » Wed May 22, 2013 6:56 am

Did you read the Roger Musson book yet Quang? Despite kooks' report of success, I'd be wary of skipping spoke holes on a wheel build. They're there for a reason.

But hey, you're the kinda guy who'd go and drill holes in carbon tubes, so knock yourself out. Figure of speech.
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Re: Lacing 36H hub to 18H rim?

Postby Mozzar » Wed May 22, 2013 1:23 pm

With my experience in building 1000's of wheels there is no way of lacing a 18 spoke wheel any other way other then radial as you will have an odd number of spokes each side. So you will have to stick with radial.
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Re: Lacing 36H hub to 18H rim?

Postby QuangVuong » Thu May 23, 2013 6:57 am

Not yet Dan.

And from the good folk at Velocity, my 18h Aeroheads have arrived. Since you guys are advising against 18holes, then I'll see if I can exchange for a 20/24. EDIT: Looks like I'll be able to exchange them.

Is it better to just get the 20/24h rims to match with some FastFoward 20/24 hubs? Rather than making up some potentially dangerous 18h rims on 36h hubs.

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Re: Lacing 36H hub to 18H rim?

Postby Dan » Thu May 23, 2013 7:21 am

I'd go with the 24 rear - minimum - for your first build. Gives you a bit more room for error. I'd actually go for a 32h, but that's me ;)

I know you're light, but the extra spokes make sfa difference weightwise. My current parts order is for 28h front 32h rear - for consistency (and the sake of 20g) I should most probably have stuck with a 32h front, too.

Get the Musson book - has some rad plans for a wheelbuilding stand, too. I found it clearer and more descriptive than the Sheldon pages.

EDIT: removal of annoying autocorrect typos
Last edited by Dan on Thu May 23, 2013 3:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Lacing 36H hub to 18H rim?

Postby QuangVuong » Thu May 23, 2013 7:50 am

I mainly wanted lower spokes for the aesthetics. I don't care that much about weight really. Will go ahead with exchanging for 20/24. Prob will lace to FFWD F4R hubs.

I've got the book, just need to get to reading it.
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Re: Lacing 36H hub to 18H rim?

Postby kukamunga » Thu May 23, 2013 8:56 am

QuangVuong wrote:...my 18h Aeroheads have arrived
Looks like you've got two good front rims there. I wouldn't recommend my 6x3 lacing pattern example above - it's more for show than go

Whatever hubs you use, check the manufacturers fine print to see whether they are suitable for radial lacing. Some manafacturers will be quite specific about this, though with the current trend for radial lacing on nearly all front road bike wheels these days, I'd say most quality front road hubs are suitable
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Re: Lacing 36H hub to 18H rim?

Postby QuangVuong » Tue May 28, 2013 7:41 am

Reading around more, looks like Ive got one more option. I can source 18h front hubs easily enough and do it with radial/crows. How about a rear hub in 24h, with 12 drive side spokes(2 cross) and 6 non drive all in radial?
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Re: Lacing 36H hub to 18H rim?

Postby Dan » Tue May 28, 2013 8:10 am

3x drive side rear - 2x everything else. My opinion.
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Re: Lacing 36H hub to 18H rim?

Postby kukamunga » Tue May 28, 2013 8:40 am

QuangVuong wrote:Reading around more, looks like Ive got one more option. I can source 18h front hubs easily enough and do it with radial/crows. How about a rear hub in 24h, with 12 drive side spokes(2 cross) and 6 non drive all in radial?
Calculating the spoke lengths could be very trial and error, I reckon. Unless you have a range of spoke lengths at your disposal, I'd ditch the 18 for the rear idea and get yourself a 24 or 28H rim for the rear with matching hub. How big are you anyway that you think an 18H rear is going to be anywhere near strong enough to ride on?
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Re: Lacing 36H hub to 18H rim?

Postby QuangVuong » Tue May 28, 2013 12:43 pm

60kg plus the 10kg bike.

I'm still working out the exchange with the shop for a 20/24, but they are taking forever.
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Re: Lacing 36H hub to 18H rim?

Postby spirito » Tue May 28, 2013 9:13 pm

QuangVuong wrote: How about a rear hub in 24h, with 12 drive side spokes(2 cross) and 6 non drive all in radial?


I hope you know a good dentist.

Aerohead's are a great rim but they're very light. Combining a light rim which has lower tension limits with a low spoke count is recipe for problems. There is a reason why most low spoke wheels use deeper and slightly heavier rims, they can handle the higher spoke tension needed to make a stronger wheel and also help support or add overall strength to a wheel with fewer spokes.

Making these decisions without have a solid grasp of what you're doing isn't something I'd advise against. Talk to your LBS or a wheelbuilder with experience and let them know what you'd like so they can recommend better choices for you.
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